Microchip - yes or no? - Page 4 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

lil fu fu girl · 08-08-2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Are you saying I berated someone? I feel like there have been attempts to shut me up, because I have a different opinion, and I find no honor in that.

1.Out of the 26 participants in this thread, only two have expressed a different opinion than yours; and in point of fact all 23 have applauded Your Opinion.

2. So please explain to me who has made attempts to shut you up.

3. If the "berating shoe" fits.....well I assume you know the rest.

Nancy1999 · 08-08-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jennxling

I've never lost my babies and hope to never have to go through it. However, both our babies are microchipped just in case

I will be getting them scanned next time we go to the vet just to make sure the chip is still in. I heard they sometimes can fall out or something...

It's a good idea to have them scanned each year. I think you may have meant “migrate” not fall out. The first ones moved a little, and newer models don’t seem to have that much of a problem. The reason they suggest getting them tested each year is to see if the number is still showing up correctly, to see if it has migrated, and or even to see if there is any tumor around the site. It’s possible a tumor could grow, but remember a tumor doesn’t mean cancer.

jp4m2 · 08-08-2011, 03:22 PM

It was brought to my attention that my opinion is still at issue in this thread. I’m not sure why this is going on but I now feel the need to justify and defend my position further. Let me just clarify that I think chipping would be a wonderful thing for pets and their owners *if* the health of the pet is not put at great risk to do so. All I stated in my first post was I think more studies are needed in this area. As of yet many of the studies are with mice, and are short term to get a good picture as to the potential to cause cancer.

The links I provided where added to give a person a tiny glimpse as to what is at issue, they were not posted as a complete summery of this situation. It’s just a tip of the iceberg as to what is concerning some pet owners. It is the opinion of a member that the first link I provided, Chip Me Not, *may* be run by commercial breeder advocates or people in the dog fighting business. There was no evidence included with this statement just a stated opinion …..

The site is run by a woman who is in the consumer advocacy field by the name of Dr. Katherine Albrecht, the following is her bio:

Dr. Katherine Albrecht is widely recognized as one of the world's leading experts on consumer privacy. She regularly counsels policy makers and the media on the privacy, societal, and civil libertiesimpacts of new technologies, with an emphasis on RFID and retail issues. She has advised the Federal Trade Commission, various state legislatures, the Federal Reserve Bank, the European Commission, and the Office of the Canadian Privacy Commissioner, among others, and was recently appointed by NH Governor John Lynch to serve on that state's two-year RFID study commission. Dr. Albrecht is co-author of the book "Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to TrackYour Every Move with RFID" with Liz McIntyre. She is the Director of CASPIAN (Consumers Against
Supermarket Privacy Invasion and Numbering), a 15,000-member organization she founded in 1999 to advocate free-market, consumer-based solutions to the problem of retail privacy invasion. Sheholds a Doctorate in Education from Harvard University, with a research focus in consumer education,privacy and psychology.

On her advisory board is:
Professor Keith W. Miller Louise Hartman Schewe and Karl Schewe Professor
Computer Science, University of Illinois at Springfield

Editor-in-Chief, IEEE Technology & Society. 2008- Associate Editor for Ethics, IEEE IT Professional. 2008- IEEE Society on Social Implications of Technology

His credential are quite long so I didn’t want to post them, they are here:
https://edocs.uis.edu/kmill2/www/keith.htm
This is a paper Dr. Albrecht put out:
http://www.chipmenot.org/pdfs/albrec...full-paper.pdf
Maybe it’s just me but as of yet I don’t see any reason to see their motives as suspicious. … There was also a statement made that a study was rigged with genetically inferior mice. If people are interested they can go to the link, that subject is addressed there. It was a statement put out by a chip co. CEO.

I feel I have very valid points as to why I choose not to chip. I’m not telling anyone else not to do it, it’s just *my* decision. I don’t understand why when I state my opinion I’m being told how my concerns are wrong or unfounded without any research provided to the contrary by the opposing poster(s) yet I feel I have to provide research, links and case studies to show my reasons as valid????

Thank you lil fu fu girl for understanding.......I appreciate it.....

For the interested parties this is an interesting article too:

Chip Implants Linked to Animal Tumors - washingtonpost.com

shodanusmc · 08-08-2011, 03:24 PM

If I had my way, I would have marge Chipped so I knew when she was out spending money.

Millions of chips have been used. If there was a problem, it would have surfaced. I am a strong believer if chipping and would not do anything to hurt my dogs. Everyone has an opinion. It is up to the Owner. I trust my Vet. If she felt it was bad, she would be the first one to tell me.

yorkietalkjilly · 08-08-2011, 03:34 PM

It only takes one person to try to shut down someone else's opinion. It usually doesn't work but that doesn't mean it wasn't tried. Honest disagreement is to be expected because people and their concerns are so different but I don't think Miss Nancy is doing anything more than expressing her opinion and looks like she is considering the others, investigating and giving her opinion on those.

It is good to know what info is out there and assess who is presenting it, comment pro or con and then we can each make up our minds for our own dogs. That is what a good forum is - lots of exchange of ideas and good, sometimes heated discussion of each issue. If someone disagrees strongly, I wouldn't take that as berating, just passionately responsive. And we need that here so we will get the best information. There is so much on the internet and magazines and the news about dogs, you really do have to do some homework or be pushed/pulled every which way several times in one hour of researching something. I hope we don't discourage each other posting passionately as that would be a disservice to our dogs and this very site.

jp4m2 · 08-08-2011, 03:50 PM

(quote)I don't think Miss Nancy is doing anything more than expressing her opinion and looks like she is considering the others(quote)

yorkietalkjilly, no disrespect meant but the one of the reasons I felt that my opinion was dismissed and was not considered as you stated is because Nancy looked at one link and stated that it looked to be connected to commercial breeders and dog fighters. If that was true I would want to know that. But the statement was made with no reasons as to why the statement was made. I felt it reflected very negatively on me since I posted the link. I felt it made me look like I was providing unreliable information and hers opinion or statement was correct. As of yet there is no proof to the accusation, it appears to be run by someone who is very concerned about our pets health...Until I find out otherwise I don't think it should have been discredited like that.....

Nancy1999 · 08-08-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp4m2

(quote)I don't think Miss Nancy is doing anything more than expressing her opinion and looks like she is considering the others(quote)

yorkietalkjilly, no disrespect meant but the one of the reasons I felt that my opinion was dismissed and was not considered as you stated is because Nancy looked at one link and stated that it looked to be connected to commercial breeders and dog fighters. If that was true I would want to know that. But the statement was made with no reasons as to why the statement was made. I felt it reflected very negatively on me since I posted the link. I felt it made me look like I was providing unreliable information and hers opinion or statement was correct. As of yet there is no proof to the accusation, it appears to be run by someone who is very concerned about our pets health...Until I find out otherwise I don't think it should have been discredited like that.....

I'm sorry; I didn't mean to make you feel that way. I just didn't know if people understood why all of a sudden, after twenty years of using microchips, people are suddenly hearing all these rumors. Where were all these sites 5 years ago? They came out of the woodwork when states are trying to pass microchip legislation to help control puppy mills and dog fighting. I didn't mean to "dismiss your opinion; I guess I'm just frustrated, that people can't see through some of that stuff. I probably don’t write that well, and I’m sorry, if I made you feel badly or that your opinion wasn’t respected. I do have a pretty good scientific background, I was trying to share my particular area of knowledge, I understand how you can manipulate a study to mislead the public When someone has done this, I wonder what their motives are? I’m not questioning your motives. Know that we are on the same team, and I believe we truly want what’s best for our dogs. I believe that there are groups who use scare tactics to manipulate the general public. I understand that many people are worried about “big brother” but I’d be more worried about “Facebook” than microchips. I do agree with you that good records should be kept and more studies done, but I’m satisfied appropriate studies have been done before vets even used them. I agree with you that microchips aren’t necessary for every dog, and I’m sure we both agree, if done, yearly checkup are a good idea. Anyway, I hope you accept my apologies.

Belle Noir · 08-08-2011, 04:17 PM

I am one of the people who have had a micro chip fail, and it was before the reported Hadden.

My Beauceron Aramis was imported from Portugal and had a ISO chip apparently. The SPCA scanner didn't read his chip. They had his misted as a Dobe/Rot cross. He was euthanized.

A cat breeder friend of mine has had chips pop out of cats. Not migrate, but actually pop out. She has found that it's better to insert them in at an angle, but even then, she had an adult cat pop out a chip.
As in she scanned the cat (she has Siamese), it didn't have a chip, and she did chip this cat, she scanned the cage, and found the chip in the cage.

I personally prefer to chip. Of all the various ID forms, I feel it is the best. Collars can be lost or removed. Tattoos can become illegible over time. No one method of ID is 100% effective, but considering my alternatives, I chip.

yorkietalkjilly · 08-08-2011, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp4m2

(quote)I don't think Miss Nancy is doing anything more than expressing her opinion and looks like she is considering the others(quote)

yorkietalkjilly, no disrespect meant but the one of the reasons I felt that my opinion was dismissed and was not considered as you stated is because Nancy looked at one link and stated that it looked to be connected to commercial breeders and dog fighters. If that was true I would want to know that. But the statement was made with no reasons as to why the statement was made. I felt it reflected very negatively on me since I posted the link. I felt it made me look like I was providing unreliable information and hers opinion or statement was correct. As of yet there is no proof to the accusation, it appears to be run by someone who is very concerned about our pets health...Until I find out otherwise I don't think it should have been discredited like that.....

Now I didn't take it that way as a reflection on you but taking on the position or credentials of that website - not you. You pointed it out and passed it on to us for consideration is good faith. I for one want to know it all so if people don't find out things for us to look at and consider, we may not know until it is too late to be helpful. If I passed on something to this forum that I didn't produce but wanted others to consider, that is no reflection on me unless that website is promoting something very bad for dogs - something like that. But however weird it might seem, I want to at least be made aware and then if I have enough knowledge or position to comment, may do that, such as Nancy did.

We are all no doubt watching the info about microchip side or bad effects but until there is a real consensus by a good deal of respected peer review veterinary groups about chip-produced tumors in dogs, I think we do want to be circumspect about info out there that might prevent some from considering chipping. But I know we are all watching as anything comes out and looking at each article and source very very closely. I pray the chips never are proven to be really harmful as they are such a good tool in helping reunite dogs and families!!!

jp4m2 · 08-08-2011, 05:18 PM

Nancy, I appreciate your understanding as to why I would have been upset. I would never want to intentionally put out false or incorrect info. I try and add links to my most of posts so people can get an idea as to what I'm talking about instead of just talking with nothing to back it up. I don't want people wondering what in the world I'm talking about because they may have not heard about it before. My links are only intended as a tool to start people thinking and searching on their own.

You are correct that our pets health is what we all have in common on this forum. It's just that on some issues the topic has many pro's and con's, it's not always so black and white.Each one of us has to carefully weigh all the risks and/or adverse reactions that pertains to our dogs versus the benefits. We also have to take into consideration if the topic is relevant to our individual situation based on our location or/and risks of exposure.

I guess this is a another case of strong opinions and love of the breed that tends to get us worked up at times....

Nancy1999 · 08-08-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jp4m2

Nancy, I appreciate your understanding as to why I would have been upset. I would never want to intentionally put out false or incorrect info. I try and add links to my most of posts so people can get an idea as to what I'm talking about instead of just talking with nothing to back it up. I don't want people wondering what in the world I'm talking about because they may have not heard about it before. My links are only intended as a tool to start people thinking and searching on their own.

You are correct that our pets health is what we all have in common on this forum. It's just that on some issues the topic has many pro's and con's, it's not always so black and white.Each one of us has to carefully weigh all the risks and/or adverse reactions that pertains to our dogs versus the benefits. We also have to take into consideration if the topic is relevant to our individual situation based on our location or/and risks of exposure.

I guess this is a another case of strong opinions and love of the breed that tends to get us worked up at times....

Thank you for being understanding too, and I'm glad we can concentrate on what we have in common, rather than what are differences are.

gracielove · 08-09-2011, 05:44 AM

This is a little off the subject matter and just a personal observation. I am concerned about ingredients that are put in foods and skin products, etc. I often go online to find information about various products, medications, and ingredients. At first glance it often appears that there is accurate substantiated information available. After closer examination it is evident that much of the information posted is there to support an agenda being put out by one side of the issue or the other. It takes time to sort through all the information to find unbiased research that has been done. In some cases there is no unbiased information because someone has to pay for good accurate research to be done and then publish it. Unless an unbiased research project has been conducted in a true scientific manner by a reputable organization over an appropriate period of time we are then forced to deal with observations that can be presented to represent either side of the issue.
It is frustrating and in the end we all must examine the most trustworthy sources we can find and then make a decision based on what is best for our own personal situations.

08-08-2011, 03:22 PM	#48
jp4m2 Love my Boys Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: w/ my boys Posts: 5,056	It was brought to my attention that my opinion is still at issue in this thread. I’m not sure why this is going on but I now feel the need to justify and defend my position further. Let me just clarify that I think chipping would be a wonderful thing for pets and their owners if the health of the pet is not put at great risk to do so. All I stated in my first post was I think more studies are needed in this area. As of yet many of the studies are with mice, and are short term to get a good picture as to the potential to cause cancer. The links I provided where added to give a person a tiny glimpse as to what is at issue, they were not posted as a complete summery of this situation. It’s just a tip of the iceberg as to what is concerning some pet owners. It is the opinion of a member that the first link I provided, Chip Me Not, may be run by commercial breeder advocates or people in the dog fighting business. There was no evidence included with this statement just a stated opinion ….. The site is run by a woman who is in the consumer advocacy field by the name of Dr. Katherine Albrecht, the following is her bio: Dr. Katherine Albrecht is widely recognized as one of the world's leading experts on consumer privacy. She regularly counsels policy makers and the media on the privacy, societal, and civil libertiesimpacts of new technologies, with an emphasis on RFID and retail issues. She has advised the Federal Trade Commission, various state legislatures, the Federal Reserve Bank, the European Commission, and the Office of the Canadian Privacy Commissioner, among others, and was recently appointed by NH Governor John Lynch to serve on that state's two-year RFID study commission. Dr. Albrecht is co-author of the book "Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to TrackYour Every Move with RFID" with Liz McIntyre. She is the Director of CASPIAN (Consumers Against Supermarket Privacy Invasion and Numbering), a 15,000-member organization she founded in 1999 to advocate free-market, consumer-based solutions to the problem of retail privacy invasion. Sheholds a Doctorate in Education from Harvard University, with a research focus in consumer education,privacy and psychology. On her advisory board is: Professor Keith W. Miller Louise Hartman Schewe and Karl Schewe Professor Computer Science, University of Illinois at Springfield Editor-in-Chief, IEEE Technology & Society. 2008- Associate Editor for Ethics, IEEE IT Professional. 2008- IEEE Society on Social Implications of Technology His credential are quite long so I didn’t want to post them, they are here: https://edocs.uis.edu/kmill2/www/keith.htm This is a paper Dr. Albrecht put out: http://www.chipmenot.org/pdfs/albrec...full-paper.pdf Maybe it’s just me but as of yet I don’t see any reason to see their motives as suspicious. … There was also a statement made that a study was rigged with genetically inferior mice. If people are interested they can go to the link, that subject is addressed there. It was a statement put out by a chip co. CEO. I feel I have very valid points as to why I choose not to chip. I’m not telling anyone else not to do it, it’s just my decision. I don’t understand why when I state my opinion I’m being told how my concerns are wrong or unfounded without any research provided to the contrary by the opposing poster(s) yet I feel I have to provide research, links and case studies to show my reasons as valid???? Thank you lil fu fu girl for understanding.......I appreciate it..... For the interested parties this is an interesting article too: Chip Implants Linked to Animal Tumors - washingtonpost.com __________________ B.J.mom to : Jake J.J. Jack & Joey, momma misses you..... The joy found in the companionship of a pet is a blessing not given to everyone. The two most powerful words when we’re in struggle: me too..

08-08-2011, 03:34 PM	#50
yorkietalkjilly ♥ Love My Tibbe! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: D/FW, Texas Posts: 22,140	It only takes one person to try to shut down someone else's opinion. It usually doesn't work but that doesn't mean it wasn't tried. Honest disagreement is to be expected because people and their concerns are so different but I don't think Miss Nancy is doing anything more than expressing her opinion and looks like she is considering the others, investigating and giving her opinion on those. It is good to know what info is out there and assess who is presenting it, comment pro or con and then we can each make up our minds for our own dogs. That is what a good forum is - lots of exchange of ideas and good, sometimes heated discussion of each issue. If someone disagrees strongly, I wouldn't take that as berating, just passionately responsive. And we need that here so we will get the best information. There is so much on the internet and magazines and the news about dogs, you really do have to do some homework or be pushed/pulled every which way several times in one hour of researching something. I hope we don't discourage each other posting passionately as that would be a disservice to our dogs and this very site. __________________ Jeanie and Tibbe One must do the best one can. You may get some marks for a very imperfect answer: you will certainly get none for leaving the question alone. C. S. Lewis

08-08-2011, 03:50 PM	#51
jp4m2 Love my Boys Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: w/ my boys Posts: 5,056	(quote)I don't think Miss Nancy is doing anything more than expressing her opinion and looks like she is considering the others(quote) yorkietalkjilly, no disrespect meant but the one of the reasons I felt that my opinion was dismissed and was not considered as you stated is because Nancy looked at one link and stated that it looked to be connected to commercial breeders and dog fighters. If that was true I would want to know that. But the statement was made with no reasons as to why the statement was made. I felt it reflected very negatively on me since I posted the link. I felt it made me look like I was providing unreliable information and hers opinion or statement was correct. As of yet there is no proof to the accusation, it appears to be run by someone who is very concerned about our pets health...Until I find out otherwise I don't think it should have been discredited like that..... __________________ B.J.mom to : Jake J.J. Jack & Joey, momma misses you..... The joy found in the companionship of a pet is a blessing not given to everyone. The two most powerful words when we’re in struggle: me too..

08-08-2011, 05:18 PM	#55
jp4m2 Love my Boys Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: w/ my boys Posts: 5,056	Nancy, I appreciate your understanding as to why I would have been upset. I would never want to intentionally put out false or incorrect info. I try and add links to my most of posts so people can get an idea as to what I'm talking about instead of just talking with nothing to back it up. I don't want people wondering what in the world I'm talking about because they may have not heard about it before. My links are only intended as a tool to start people thinking and searching on their own. You are correct that our pets health is what we all have in common on this forum. It's just that on some issues the topic has many pro's and con's, it's not always so black and white.Each one of us has to carefully weigh all the risks and/or adverse reactions that pertains to our dogs versus the benefits. We also have to take into consideration if the topic is relevant to our individual situation based on our location or/and risks of exposure. I guess this is a another case of strong opinions and love of the breed that tends to get us worked up at times.... __________________ B.J.mom to : Jake J.J. Jack & Joey, momma misses you..... The joy found in the companionship of a pet is a blessing not given to everyone. The two most powerful words when we’re in struggle: me too..

08-08-2011, 03:24 PM	#49
shodanusmc BANNED! Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,603	If I had my way, I would have marge Chipped so I knew when she was out spending money. Millions of chips have been used. If there was a problem, it would have surfaced. I am a strong believer if chipping and would not do anything to hurt my dogs. Everyone has an opinion. It is up to the Owner. I trust my Vet. If she felt it was bad, she would be the first one to tell me.

08-08-2011, 04:17 PM	#53
Belle Noir YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Reading, PA, USA Posts: 258	I am one of the people who have had a micro chip fail, and it was before the reported Hadden. My Beauceron Aramis was imported from Portugal and had a ISO chip apparently. The SPCA scanner didn't read his chip. They had his misted as a Dobe/Rot cross. He was euthanized. A cat breeder friend of mine has had chips pop out of cats. Not migrate, but actually pop out. She has found that it's better to insert them in at an angle, but even then, she had an adult cat pop out a chip. As in she scanned the cat (she has Siamese), it didn't have a chip, and she did chip this cat, she scanned the cage, and found the chip in the cage. I personally prefer to chip. Of all the various ID forms, I feel it is the best. Collars can be lost or removed. Tattoos can become illegible over time. No one method of ID is 100% effective, but considering my alternatives, I chip.

08-09-2011, 05:44 AM	#57
gracielove YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: NY Posts: 6,582	This is a little off the subject matter and just a personal observation. I am concerned about ingredients that are put in foods and skin products, etc. I often go online to find information about various products, medications, and ingredients. At first glance it often appears that there is accurate substantiated information available. After closer examination it is evident that much of the information posted is there to support an agenda being put out by one side of the issue or the other. It takes time to sort through all the information to find unbiased research that has been done. In some cases there is no unbiased information because someone has to pay for good accurate research to be done and then publish it. Unless an unbiased research project has been conducted in a true scientific manner by a reputable organization over an appropriate period of time we are then forced to deal with observations that can be presented to represent either side of the issue. It is frustrating and in the end we all must examine the most trustworthy sources we can find and then make a decision based on what is best for our own personal situations.