Decision on Docking Tail

[Britster]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Good point Brister, I'm maybe too paranoid about it then?

Again my dogs came with docked tails I never had to think about the decision, and more so am always more concerned with the risks, but it's really nice to hear from people who's dogs have full tails and are very active if they've experienced injury since that's supposed to be the reasoning.

Jackson has his declaws still too? Please be careful with them, does he wear shoes or do you use a wrap on them to protect them at all when he's being active?

Don't boarder terriers have an especially durable tail too?

I think the Border Terrier's tail IS bred to be thicker, like the Westies, so you can pull them out of a hole with it. But my point was mainly that they are often working small terriers and they still have a tail. Yorkies are not working terriers.

No, I've never done anything special with dewclaws. Just keep 'em cut short. I realize there's always a chance of them getting stuck on something but I did not get him from a reputable breeder and they were never removed. However, all of our dogs growing up always had dewclaws and they've never posed to be an issue. I just don't really think about it - I treat it like all his other nails. I had never heard of a dog having them removed until joining YT.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Yes, I think they are pretty, too. Is Elvis the one you said in another thread had a deer-butt! Sounds like your Elvis is a ratter at heart just as my Tibbe would be given the chance! I wonder how long and how far he would chase something he is after if he were just allowed to go after real prey until he caught it. I will tell you that the heart of an old-fashioned dog of the mines and farms of the British Isles beats in this little lap dog when he scents or sees something to chase. He is still a working terrier at heart.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Yes, I think they are pretty, too. Is Elvis the one you said in another thread had a deer-butt! Sounds like your Elvis is a ratter at heart just as my Tibbe would be given the chance! I wonder how long and how far he would chase something he is after if he were just allowed to go after real prey until he caught it. I will tell you that the heart of an old-fashioned dog of the mines and farms of the British Isles beats in this little lap dog when he scents or sees something to chase. He is still a working terrier at heart.

LOL! The dear-butt! That's Scoobers, so funny he's a Schnorkie (Yorkie/ mini schnauzie hybrid) he's freakishly large though at 21 lbs! Scoobers is my 'runner' he'll follow recall...except...when he catches a scent in an unfenced area he has no control over it he's gone before his lil gears in his noggin' have time to respond! Yes, he has a butt that (I know most dogs have swirls there) looks exactly like a dear's I'd post a pic but ya know someone else might read over this and see it and I'll be the dear-butt pic poster from then on!

I know what you mean to Brister I used to think some dogs just had short tails naturally! I had no idea they were "docked"! Actually I used to think so many things before I came to YT and found out so many things...thankfully.

I know the mini schnauzie (my wording here tired again it's 6 am) had something to do with the first few tail vertebrae being stronger to be used as a handle to be pulled by tails from holes but that if you grab beyond that point you will break their tail like any other dog so maybe that's why they dock theirs even though it was 'handle like by breeding' along with injury prevention.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Oh, now I remember Scoobers and the deer-butt!!! That was so funny! Several other posters on that thread acknowledged deer-butts, too. I think Tibbe's little Yorkie behind is sooo cute, though he isn't a deer-butt himself. But his little butt is broad and well-muscled and just so cute!

[Maximo]

On Yorkies, I like the looks of both full and docked tails. I'm happy with my boys' docked tails. They still have plenty to express themselves. Teddy is a wonderful wagger and butt wiggler. Max is very serious with his.

I do feel sorry for the pups that have their tails docked too short.

There are other breeds I prefer with a docked tail. Airedales are prettier in my opinion with a stubby tail.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by AlicetheYorkie

Not to scare the OP or anything, but I worked as a vet tech for a few different vets and have assisted with many tail dockings (yorkies, rottis, boxers etc. ) and trust me - they do more than just a little "yip" and I can't possibly imagine one sleeping through it. If they are asleep when you pick them up, that wakes them up! NO offence what so ever to any breeder who docks, but any vet that tells you it's painless is lieing - BUT I had my son circumsized the day after he was born and I'm sure that wasn't 100% painless either and the puppies DO seem to calm down and forget all about it after a few minutes. My parti has a tail and I think it's adorable! At the same time, if you want them docked, do it - even if it causes them pain for a few seconds, they are fine very soon after and don't at all remember since it's so soon after they're born and their little eyes aren't even open so they have no clue what's going on. If you really don't want to do it and you're just selling them as pets, I'm sure that won't be a problem either Go with your gut either way - it's totally fine to do, but just MHO only because I've held puppies while the vet was doing it, if you're just selling them as pets and it bothers you to think about, then don't. Like I said - NO OFFENCE to anyone, just sharing my experiences

I was right there when they docked two litters of my yorkies. They did the actual docking in the next room but the door was open & I wasn't more than 6 feet from them. I could have taken 2 steps & watched but preferred to stay with the litter as they took them one by one for docking. Some whimpered a little as I took them away from momma but they were no worse when they got their little tails snipped off. Not a one of them cried or continued to yip after they handed them back to me. Some made that little whiny noise that says, "where's momma?" They did root around immediately as I cuddled them to my neck, looking for something to suckle. We laughed about how they were more interested in finding momma than they were worried about losing their tails. One did look for all the world, like he was still sleeping when they handed him back to me. I can definately say he was IN NO DISTRESS WHATSOEVER! This IS what happened with mine and since it happened with two litters, I am pretty sure that is the norm for this vet.

You may well have had a different experience with the dockings you have seen. But that WAS my experience and I don't appreciate you trying to insinuate I lied! For what earthly purpose???? I get no commission on docking! Perhaps it has more to do with HOW the tails are docked? I do have a very gentle vet. He manages to give vaccines without making them yip or cry at all too! I always have ours done at 3 days and the vet tech told me that the smaller the dog, the easier the docking seems to go for them. If your vet is seeing that much pain with his dockings, maybe he needs to re-evaluate what he is doing or sharpen his scalpel or something.

Only a very closed and arrogant mind immediately denies someone's experience happened just because it is different from their own experience. BTW I never said the vet said it would be painless. I equated it to more like ear piercing. It might hurt them a bit for a few seconds, but it certainly did not appear they were in ANY pain as they handed them right back to me.

Just so you don't have to continue saying my experience did not happen, here is some medical references to show that puppies still have some cell divisions in their brains and some of the nervous threads are not fully developed a few days after birth. This contributes to how little pain they actually feel when tails are docked.
-- In 1941, Volkhov determined that animals, at this period of life, had very little feeling of pain. The conscious feeling of pain is still not very likely at that age.
--Schmidker wrote in his doctorate in 1951 about the feeling of pain in new-born puppies: "Incomplete development of the nervous system at the time of birth and the very high chronaxie value in connection with the fact that the animal is not able to react effectively to pain, gives us every reason to believe that the actual feeling of pain is very low in the new-born of this group of mammals (dogs). In other words, at this age and biological condition, it would have no absolute meaning to talk about pain".
--You therefore do not have to worry or fear that the dog will be made to suffer pain or psychological pain, if the tail has been docked or the dew claws removed, in the first few days after birth. "
Tail Docking - The Fritsch Report

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Maximo

On Yorkies, I like the looks of both full and docked tails. I'm happy with my boys' docked tails. They still have plenty to express themselves. Teddy is a wonderful wagger and butt wiggler. Max is very serious with his.

I do feel sorry for the pups that have their tails docked too short.

There are other breeds I prefer with a docked tail. Airedales are prettier in my opinion with a stubby tail.

I agree -- I like them both ways. I prefer my yorkie to look as the standard dictates but I can sure appreciate the beauty of a fully displayed tail. Someone just recently posted a video of their parti/Biewer (sorry not sure which) tail -- the video is all about the tail -- wagging, furled, unfurled, showing off like peacock plummage. You can't watch that video without admiring that tail! It is gorgeous!

I debated the first time about docking a litter's tails, but when I saw how little it affected them, I didn't hesitate the second time.

[LDMomma]

I won't buy a dog with a docked tail. I love fuzzy tails.

I don't get the prevent injury thing. I mean, I could break my finger, but it's still here

[Teegy]

Ear piercing hmmm. I remember that well. No cutting through bone or cartilage though. But I chose to have my ears pierced. And no offence to the geniuses from 100 years ago. But how do you know they don feel pain. Hitler said his race was the greatest and the Jews were not worthy. Look who's still here and stronger than ever. So it's a choice and we all have the right to agree or disagree. Teegy is the love of my life with his little nubbins. If it's breed standard then the better breeders and those that show will continue the practice. It's now against the law
In Canada for vets to dock tails. I don't know where this stemmed from but it would be interesting to find out

[AlicetheYorkie]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I was right there when they docked two litters of my yorkies. They did the actual docking in the next room but the door was open & I wasn't more than 6 feet from them. I could have taken 2 steps & watched but preferred to stay with the litter as they took them one by one for docking. Some whimpered a little as I took them away from momma but they were no worse when they got their little tails snipped off. Not a one of them cried or continued to yip after they handed them back to me. Some made that little whiny noise that says, "where's momma?" They did root around immediately as I cuddled them to my neck, looking for something to suckle. We laughed about how they were more interested in finding momma than they were worried about losing their tails. One did look for all the world, like he was still sleeping when they handed him back to me. I can definately say he was IN NO DISTRESS WHATSOEVER! This IS what happened with mine and since it happened with two litters, I am pretty sure that is the norm for this vet.

You may well have had a different experience with the dockings you have seen. But that WAS my experience and I don't appreciate you trying to insinuate I lied! For what earthly purpose???? I get no commission on docking! Perhaps it has more to do with HOW the tails are docked? I do have a very gentle vet. He manages to give vaccines without making them yip or cry at all too! I always have ours done at 3 days and the vet tech told me that the smaller the dog, the easier the docking seems to go for them. If your vet is seeing that much pain with his dockings, maybe he needs to re-evaluate what he is doing or sharpen his scalpel or something.

Only a very closed and arrogant mind immediately denies someone's experience happened just because it is different from their own experience. BTW I never said the vet said it would be painless. I equated it to more like ear piercing. It might hurt them a bit for a few seconds, but it certainly did not appear they were in ANY pain as they handed them right back to me.

Just so you don't have to continue saying my experience did not happen, here is some medical references to show that puppies still have some cell divisions in their brains and some of the nervous threads are not fully developed a few days after birth. This contributes to how little pain they actually feel when tails are docked.
-- In 1941, Volkhov determined that animals, at this period of life, had very little feeling of pain. The conscious feeling of pain is still not very likely at that age.
--Schmidker wrote in his doctorate in 1951 about the feeling of pain in new-born puppies: "Incomplete development of the nervous system at the time of birth and the very high chronaxie value in connection with the fact that the animal is not able to react effectively to pain, gives us every reason to believe that the actual feeling of pain is very low in the new-born of this group of mammals (dogs). In other words, at this age and biological condition, it would have no absolute meaning to talk about pain".
--You therefore do not have to worry or fear that the dog will be made to suffer pain or psychological pain, if the tail has been docked or the dew claws removed, in the first few days after birth. "
Tail Docking - The Fritsch Report

woah woah woah First let me just say, I apologize if I offended you (in retrospect ,I should have chose my wording more thoughtfully), but I am not a close minded or arrogant person and I was not trying to "deny your experience" since I didn't even know you had one. I never said nor was I trying to imply that YOU lied, you never said in your original post that you were PRESENT for the tail docking of your puppies at all, you only described what your vet told you. I had NO CLUE you were there, all I meant by my comment about your vet "lieing" about the pup sleeping throught it or it not being painfull was that I know some vets (and MDs) downplay what pain is going to be like for a procedure, especially vets since 99% of the time the owner is not present and has no clue what is happening. The vets I worked for are the best in the area and the specific one I worked for where most of my experience lies is AAHA approved and is 100% UTD on the lastest medical procedures and equipment. I was by no means at all trying to call you a lier nor was I trying to come down on you for docking your pups tails or anything else negative towards you. The OP was asking for an honest opinion about whether or not to dock her pups tails and I was simply sharing my experience with her. The only reason I quoted you was because it SEEMED like your vet may have not been being 100% honest with you, but I do appoligize if I was wrong or insulted you in any way, I assure that was never my intention at all. Bottom line is, IMHO no matter how gentle the vet is, what they are doing is cutting off the tail. And like I said, NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST ANYONE WHO DOCKS TAILS - I agree with you that the puppies do forget all about it a few seconds later (as I believe I stated in my post) and you're also right that all they want to do is look for "mommy" at that point and they are fine afterwards. The fact of the matter is, it does cause pain (even though only a few seconds of it) to the dog and my experiences (many) prove that to me. I'm not saying it's cruel or tramatizing in the long run, I just personaly think it's unnessesary and it was my absolute least favorite thing to assist the veterinarian with because I felt bad for the puppies for that few seconds. The OP was having douts about doing it and the ONLY thing I was trying to do was provide her with some knowledge. Sorry again if I offended you, I wasn't trying to and I do apologize.

[Lou]

Maybe this will help you make up your mind. Nuff said

YouTube - Docking Puppies Tails - Yorkies

[katienme2002]

Omgosh I couldnt even watch that video!!!

[Lou]

Originally Posted by katienme2002

Omgosh I couldnt even watch that video!!!

I cried. Don't tell me that little one didn't feel pain.
I admit that I love the look of a yorkie with a docked tail and had Adie's tail docked. When Skeeter came along there was a miscommunication and the breeder did not dock his. I'm so happy about that! I'll tell you there is nothing like a happy yorkie wagging his long tail!

As far as dew claws go....I have had at the very least one dog in my house all of my life and most of them had/have dew claws. In all that time only once did we have a dew claw accident when Cassie evidently caught it on something. It was very painful for her and it took a long time to heal. so I am really on the fence. If it doesn't hurt the puppy it is probably a good thing but after watching the video I have my concerns.

[Cha Cha]

This is just one of those debates where everyone has their opinion on it, but it doesn't make one side right or wrong. JMO. I have been present and held puppies for the vet for tail dockings and I still prefer the look of a docked tail on the breeds that have them. The Schnauzer clip is part of what gives the Schnauzer it's "preferred" look. How do you get that look with a long tail? A friend of mine has a Minature Schnauzer with a long tail and she doesn't have her clipped. She says no one knows she's a Schnauzer. They think she's a mix breed. I think the Yorkie looks great with or without a long tail, but some breeds not so much and they kind of get mixed in with other breeds. Again, JMO.

[concretegurl]

Deb I believe you.
I'm sure many do feel pain (believe you too Alice's mom) seems there are two methods-i thought there was three.
I got my ears pierced and I didn't notice the first one at all just heard the click and the second didn't feel a thing until the gun got stuck-it was 1 1/2 hours of pain with a piercing gun stuck to my head.
I use to freak at the idea of branding cows until i actually watched a branding done properly-having said that, I'm sure many can find videos of branding showing otherwise, perhaps there are more factors involved in method, prep, experience of docker that play a larger role in the experience, outcome rather than generalizations of the entire issue.

In the video is that a vet:an experienced vet with this procedure? Really I'm asking...

Hope OP is getting not only answers to their question, but some detailed information based on the other posts aiding in their decision.