Biewer or Parti? Which do you prefer?

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

FACT is, I wasn't even going to post on this thread until those who actually know what a Yorkshire Terrier is were called ignorant haters. That is between you and the person that said it

FACT is that there are several historical mentions of off-colored Yorkie-type dogs. NONE of these mentions are flattering in any way or serve to legitimize the parti. Here's one from 1894 that you choose to ignore time after time and it's typical of the other historical mentions of these dogs.
FACT: Alot of dogs were not flattering back in those days, Do we Care? No

"There are some other rough-haired toy terriers, which are, however, of little account, because they have never been bred to any particular type. Occasionally wee things very like what a miniature Skye terrier would be are seen; and, again, some smart little dogs with cut ears, evidently a cross between a Yorkshire terrier and some other variety of small dog, are not at all uncommon, and were quite numerous before the dog show era commenced. Since then the general public will not look at anything other than what is considered to be of blue blood. At one of the early London shows separate classes were provided for Scotch terriers under 7lb. weight and white in colour, fawns with the same limit, and blues likewise, each of the three attracting a fair entry, most of which were, however, what we should now call "cross-bred" broken-haired toy terriers." I think "we should now" says it all.

From this link... Yorkshire And Other Toy Terriers. Part 4

FACT is the Yorkshire Terrier standard has ALWAYS been that of a blue and tan dog. Any 'history' about any other dog is not talking about a Yorkshire Terrier. I would refer you to the above quote from 1894 to determine what type dog your FACTS talk about.
FACT:The yorkshire terrier is man made and they set a standard all those years ago. What about the other dogs that were part of that genetic makeup. Those genes didn't just disappear because they set a standard.



I said that the color code that AKC now allows partis is inarguable. I give you that. However, AKC went against its own protocol in doing that. The parent club is the one that sets the standard and AKC merely sanctions it. Here's the link to AKC's own procedure for writing breed standards. http://www.galomyoak.com/files/AKC_B...rd_Writing.pdf Find for me if you will where the AKC can arbitrarily go against the parent club in revising standards. Really, the first paragraph says it all.

FACT is, I'm not a member of the YTCA so no need to bring them up when addressing posts made by me. It is probably because you keep bringing them into it, You know that parent club you talk about.

FACT is there are no FACTS in the parti Yorkie *history*.
FACT is there is

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In fairness, I'm posting the links to the parti history by both parti clubs. People can read for themselves and decide what to make of it. Here they are...
Heres another Link for you...Clippings -

CYTC...Party Color

Parti Yorkie - PARTI YORKSHIRE TERRIER CLUB

In the last link, you can click on the Joan Gordon letter to read it. It's about her 'tri-colored dog' and includes her opinion on mis-marked dogs.

Joan Gordon is a firm believer of the color standard of the Yorkshire Terrier, She is a Pioneer in the breed. No one ever said any different. But yet she did register her tri color Yorkie with AKC. If it had been a mix breed she would have NEVER NEVER have registered him.

All pure bred dogs came from cross breeding other dogs. That's a given. Once a type has been set and a standard written, it's just basic breeding to breed only to/for the standard. That is one of the essential tenets of pure bred dog breeding. Purposely breeding FOR a fault goes against this very basic concept of pure bred dog breeding. It's disingenuous to promote a fanciful 'history' to justify breeding for off-standard dogs, even the cute ones.

And all of this coming from a man who used to breed crossbred wolves!!!!!! Wonder what they use to say about you? Isn't that like calling the kettle black?

WE are not trying to justify anything, All we are and have been saying is that the Parti yorkie is Just that, a yorkshire Terrier, it is not a crossbred.
We love our parti yorkies just as much as anyone else. If we want to share with others when they ask how they came to be, we certainly have a right to tell them.

We are not members of the YTCA, We are not saying that they are the standard, We are not going to let you keep bad mouthing us and not say anything back.

We ARE going to continue to breed and promote them anyway we see fit. If you don't like it then that is your problem not ours.
They are here and have been registered with AKC for 11 years. They are not going away, as a matter of fact in the next few years they will be everywhere.
CKC in Canada has accepted them. Europe enjoys us.
It is only in the United States, mainly the YTCA and mostly a few in here that it seems to bother the H*** out of.

So with that being said

"IT'S TIME TO PARTI"

[Woogie Man]

NOTE: I underlined my responses within the quote to try and make it less confusing to read.

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

And all of this coming from a man who used to breed crossbred wolves!!!!!! Wonder what they use to say about you? Isn't that like calling the kettle black?

Yeah..GRRRRR!!!! Was wondering when you would trot that out again (Hi, Cindy ) Interesting enough, the dogs I USED to breed are now known as the American Tundra Shepherd. home

WE are not trying to justify anything, All we are and have been saying is that the Parti yorkie is Just that, a yorkshire Terrier, it is not a crossbred.

You've been saying a lot more, but we'll leave that one alone .

We love our parti yorkies just as much as anyone else. If we want to share with others when they ask how they came to be, we certainly have a right to tell them.

"Surrounded in mystery" (per your website) is not exactly telling us anything.

We are not members of the YTCA, We are not saying that they are the standard, We are not going to let you keep bad mouthing us and not say anything back.

Umm, well the YTCA *IS* the standard, as you would put it.

We ARE going to continue to breed and promote them anyway we see fit. If you don't like it then that is your problem not ours.

That much is obvious. Wonder what they'll look like down the road. No telling with your anything goes approach to breeding.

They are here and have been registered with AKC for 11 years. They are not going away, as a matter of fact in the next few years they will be everywhere.
CKC in Canada has accepted them. Europe enjoys us.
It is only in the United States, mainly the YTCA and mostly a few in here that it seems to bother the H*** out of.

So with that being said

"IT'S TIME TO PARTI"

Cast me as a 'hater' if you like. I really think they're adorable dogs but I'm sure that gets lost to the average person viewing this breeders disagreement. Disagreeing with a skewed view of history does not = hating the dog, nor the owners who love them.

What bothers me is creating 'facts' to support a 'history'. That's all I've addressed here, except for direct responses to your statements. Don't try to make it more than it is.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

FACT is, I wasn't even going to post on this thread until those who actually know what a Yorkshire Terrier is were called ignorant haters.

Please, don't twist my words. Most here actually are aware of what a yorkshire terrier is, and certainly are not ignorant haters. "Those" I was referring to were some exhibitors, who yes, do hate the idea of breeding partis and Biewers , them being considered by others to be yorkshire terriers, accepted by pet buyers and with partis, gaining AKC acceptance. As far as being "ignorant."...yes, they are "unaware" of just how wonderful these tri color dogs can be, as they don't own them, therefore can not fully know of their wonderful yorkshire terrier attributes.... again...their loss.

And btw Jim, if it is true that you at one time cross bred wolves, I don't even hold that against you. I understand how one's breeding philosophies evolve, mine certainly have. I look very closely at the specific person, and their goals and not just what a specific group/club tells me I should.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by jencar98

I think most members knew exactly what you wanted to know and were good to answer according to their preference. There are always going to be haters though so, I'm choosing to overlook their ignorance as to just how wonderful these tri color yorkies are.....their loss


Love it Ann....pro-parti

Originally Posted by jencar98

Please, don't twist my words. Most here actually are aware of what a yorkshire terrier is, and certainly are not ignorant haters. "Those" I was referring to were some exhibitors, who yes, do hate the idea of breeding partis and Biewers , them being considered by others to be yorkshire terriers, accepted by pet buyers and with partis, gaining AKC acceptance. As far as being "ignorant."...yes, they are "unaware" of just how wonderful these tri color dogs can be, as they don't own them, therefore can not fully know of their wonderful yorkshire terrier attributes.... again...their loss.

And btw Jim, if it is true that you at one time cross bred wolves, I don't even hold that against you. I understand how one's breeding philosophies evolve, mine certainly have. I look very closely at the specific person, and their goals and not just what a specific group/club tells me I should.

Jenn, I didn't think I was twisting your words. I did condense them, as can be seen from your post I quoted above.

Gosh, I didn't want to get sucked into a debate here. I did find your post offensive and commented on it. You replied back, stating something to the effect of maybe not expressing yourself best. Good enough for me and end of story. I was just explaining to JeanieK why I posted in the first place.

Personally, I don't care if anyone holds my breeding of Pagan and Sandy (which occurred in the '80's) against me or not. In 2 litters, they produced magnificent dogs that I was (and am) very proud of. I love all dogs and have owned a variety over the years....mutts, cross-bred and pure bred. None of my opinions on breeding practices have anything to do with my love for the dogs. I'm sure that is true for most all here, regardless of opinions on other matters.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Jenn, I didn't think I was twisting your words. I did condense them, as can be seen from your post I quoted above.

But the condensed version, to me sounds much harsher than the full version

Gosh, I didn't want to get sucked into a debate here. I did find your post offensive and commented on it. You replied back, stating something to the effect of maybe not expressing yourself best. Good enough for me and end of story. I was just explaining to JeanieK why I posted in the first place.

Personally, I don't care if anyone holds my breeding of Pagan and Sandy (which occurred in the '80's) against me or not. In 2 litters, they produced magnificent dogs that I was (and am) very proud of. I love all dogs and have owned a variety over the years....mutts, cross-bred and pure bred. None of my opinions on breeding practices have anything to do with my love for the dogs. I'm sure that is true for most all here, regardless of opinions on other matters.

I'm sure they did produce magnificent dogs and you've every right to be proud.

You found that first post of mine to be offensive and to you, Jim, I do apologize. Speaking of offended though....do you realize how offended and hurt the owners of tri color dogs have become on YT? Most any thread where the subject is brought up someone has a critical comment. It gets tiresome to many of us that have these wonderful dogs, to be made to feel they are "less than", not accepted, disregarded, etc., just because we choose to think differently than another. The attitude here makes me not even want to post about or show pictures of Razz.

I get it, they are not the YTCA accepted standard but that is not what this thread (and others) started out to be. Then someone posts they don't consider them yorkies, some are offended, others promote one's "right" to post their opinion.....and we're off to the races...again!! Perhaps I shouldn't have posted exactly what I did, but I think you would admit the direction the thread would take was predictable.

It would be nice as a member of YT to be able to have "one thread" to discuss our wonderful tri color dogs and not feel the need to defend them.

[roseylovestosho]

And the clock struck 12...

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by jencar98

You found that first post of mine to be offensive and to you, Jim, I do apologize. Speaking of offended though....do you realize how offended and hurt the owners of tri color dogs have become on YT? Most any thread where the subject is brought up someone has a critical comment. It gets tiresome to many of us that have these wonderful dogs, to be made to feel they are "less than", not accepted, disregarded, etc., just because we choose to think differently than another. The attitude here makes me not even want to post about or show pictures of Razz.

I get it, they are not the YTCA accepted standard but that is not what this thread (and others) started out to be. Then someone posts they don't consider them yorkies, some are offended, others promote one's "right" to post their opinion.....and we're off to the races...again!! Perhaps I shouldn't have posted exactly what I did, but I think you would admit the direction the thread would take was predictable.

It would be nice as a member of YT to be able to have "one thread" to discuss our wonderful tri color dogs and not feel the need to defend them.

Please don't stop posting about Razz. There are many of us here that love hearing about Razz. I also love hearing about and seeing members' other Parti and Biewer babies. People might disagree philosophically with regard to the standard vs. tri-color debate, but aren't we here because we share the love of this breed regardless of whether they meet the standard of the YTCA?

[chachi]

Originally Posted by jencar98

You found that first post of mine to be offensive and to you, Jim, I do apologize. Speaking of offended though....do you realize how offended and hurt the owners of tri color dogs have become on YT? Most any thread where the subject is brought up someone has a critical comment. It gets tiresome to many of us that have these wonderful dogs, to be made to feel they are "less than", not accepted, disregarded, etc., just because we choose to think differently than another. The attitude here makes me not even want to post about or show pictures of Razz.

I get it, they are not the YTCA accepted standard but that is not what this thread (and others) started out to be. Then someone posts they don't consider them yorkies, some are offended, others promote one's "right" to post their opinion.....and we're off to the races...again!! Perhaps I shouldn't have posted exactly what I did, but I think you would admit the direction the thread would take was predictable.

It would be nice as a member of YT to be able to have "one thread" to discuss our wonderful tri color dogs and not feel the need to defend them.

I hope you dont stop posting about Razz. Even though I wouldnt buy a parti because of the controversy surrounding them I think they are gorgeous dogs and I can see why their owners love them so much. I enjoy seeing pictures of them and learning about their history. Im sorry you feel you need to defend them in every parti thread. I wish there was some way the lovers of the standard people and parti people could come together in a consensus

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by jencar98

You found that first post of mine to be offensive and to you, Jim, I do apologize. Speaking of offended though....do you realize how offended and hurt the owners of tri color dogs have become on YT? Most any thread where the subject is brought up someone has a critical comment. It gets tiresome to many of us that have these wonderful dogs, to be made to feel they are "less than", not accepted, disregarded, etc., just because we choose to think differently than another. The attitude here makes me not even want to post about or show pictures of Razz.

I get it, they are not the YTCA accepted standard but that is not what this thread (and others) started out to be. Then someone posts they don't consider them yorkies, some are offended, others promote one's "right" to post their opinion.....and we're off to the races...again!! Perhaps I shouldn't have posted exactly what I did, but I think you would admit the direction the thread would take was predictable.

It would be nice as a member of YT to be able to have "one thread" to discuss our wonderful tri color dogs and not feel the need to defend them.

Jenn, we're good. No need to apologize.

You know, too, that it's a two-way street as far as harsh posts and criticisms go on this subject. As I said before, I originally had no intentions of posting on this thread. And look, I think the dogs are gorgeous, too. Any debate is a 'breeders debate' and pet owners should not feel that anything negative is directed at them.

So, for my part, we can end any discussion of 'opinions' for now and please, enjoy discussing and showing pics of your dogs.

[Infinity]

Originally Posted by jencar98

You found that first post of mine to be offensive and to you, Jim, I do apologize. Speaking of offended though....do you realize how offended and hurt the owners of tri color dogs have become on YT? Most any thread where the subject is brought up someone has a critical comment. It gets tiresome to many of us that have these wonderful dogs, to be made to feel they are "less than", not accepted, disregarded, etc., just because we choose to think differently than another. The attitude here makes me not even want to post about or show pictures of Razz.

I completely agree to your statement! Being owner of both "standard" and "off standard" yorkies I at one point felt struggle about posting pictures of my parti colors, mainly because of the many negative comments I came across on YT threads. This is a forum for yorkshire terriers and I think all of them should have the same respect level. Whether their color is on or off.

Truth for showing I have no issue about going by the standard because all I want to have is happy pets. Not show dogs. All those rules and characteristics about how something must look like to be considered beautiful or desired remind me of a time when I came across an "Aryan Beauty" thread in some forum about the "white supremacy" and how they criticized other races or people for not having light colored eyes/skin. What does it have to do with yorkies? Well, this just makes me think of "racism" within dog breeds. lol

BTW, this is a friendly approach just showing my feel as a pet lover of the breed.

[Breny]

Wow just coming back to catch up on my post to see if anymore members had answered my question that I posted. What do I see? ....WOW.
So I guess I'll never know ...

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

FACT is, I wasn't even going to post on this thread until those who actually know what a Yorkshire Terrier is were called ignorant haters.

FACT is that there are several historical mentions of off-colored Yorkie-type dogs. NONE of these mentions are flattering in any way or serve to legitimize the parti. Here's one from 1894 that you choose to ignore time after time and it's typical of the other historical mentions of these dogs.

"There are some other rough-haired toy terriers, which are, however, of little account, because they have never been bred to any particular type. Occasionally wee things very like what a miniature Skye terrier would be are seen; and, again, some smart little dogs with cut ears, evidently a cross between a Yorkshire terrier and some other variety of small dog, are not at all uncommon, and were quite numerous before the dog show era commenced. Since then the general public will not look at anything other than what is considered to be of blue blood. At one of the early London shows separate classes were provided for Scotch terriers under 7lb. weight and white in colour, fawns with the same limit, and blues likewise, each of the three attracting a fair entry, most of which were, however, what we should now call "cross-bred" broken-haired toy terriers."

From this link... Yorkshire And Other Toy Terriers. Part 4

FACT is the Yorkshire Terrier standard has ALWAYS been that of a blue and tan dog. Any 'history' about any other dog is not talking about a Yorkshire Terrier. I would refer you to the above quote from 1894 to determine what type dog your FACTS talk about.

I said that the color code that AKC now allows partis is inarguable. I give you that. However, AKC went against its own protocol in doing that. The parent club is the one that sets the standard and AKC merely sanctions it. Here's the link to AKC's own procedure for writing breed standards. http://www.galomyoak.com/files/AKC_B...rd_Writing.pdf Find for me if you will where the AKC can arbitrarily go against the parent club in revising standards. Really, the first paragraph says it all.

FACT is, I'm not a member of the YTCA so no need to bring them up when addressing posts made by me.

FACT is there are no FACTS in the parti Yorkie *history*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In fairness, I'm posting the links to the parti history by both parti clubs. People can read for themselves and decide what to make of it. Here they are...

CYTC...Party Color

Parti Yorkie - PARTI YORKSHIRE TERRIER CLUB

In the last link, you can click on the Joan Gordon letter to read it. It's about her 'tri-colored dog' and includes her opinion on mis-marked dogs.

All pure bred dogs came from cross breeding other dogs. That's a given. Once a type has been set and a standard written, it's just basic breeding to breed only to/for the standard. That is one of the essential tenets of pure bred dog breeding. Purposely breeding FOR a fault goes against this very basic concept of pure bred dog breeding. It's disingenuous to promote a fanciful 'history' to justify breeding for off-standard dogs, even the cute ones.

[Breny]

Maybe i should have posted that all you negative ppl could keep your opinions to your selves if you didn't want to answer my main post. Not that that would have stopped anything.

[Breny]

Originally Posted by jencar98

It would be nice as a member of YT to be able to have "one thread" to discuss our wonderful tri color dogs and not feel the need to defend them.

Yes it would But I've noticed its just a hand full of haters that post and its weird I only see it here on YT, no where else
Oh well. To each his own.

[Breny]

With that said...since my thread has been hyjacked I am asking admin to close it. Please no more posts after this one. I'm not getting the replies to my questions, so just leave it.

[Wylie's Mom]

Closed per OP's request.