Shame + Shady Breeder = Beginning 2 Regret...

[teacup0819]

Congratulations on you new arrival. I'm so glad that he arrived safe and sound....you must be so happy now that he is finally here. I had trouble posting pictures too. I think there is a thread somewhere that will tell you how to size the pictures. I had to used some kind of program call Irfanview thumbnails to do it, but I found that information here somewhere. I will post a link if I can find it again.

Found it. It is under - How to Use Yorkie Talk Section

http://www.yorkietalk.com/gallery/uploadphoto.php

[concretegurl]

Free Online Picture Resizer - Crop and Resize photos, images, or pictures online for FREE!

[KendraE]

Woohoo!!! So glad he is there safe and sound! You can't run off yet! We haven't seen his picture yet! Lol! Wishing u and your new baby the best!

[yorkietalkjilly]

Exactly. You must stay and tell everyone about your baby as he grows though you probably won't be computing too much right away as you'll be quite busy enjoying this boy. You will learn a lot on this site, too, about things as they come up. I could never do enough indpendent research just Googling things on my own to amass the things I learn here every day, not to mention the things that sends me to my books, the internet or to call the vet.

[silverjoy]

So glad your baby made it safe a and sound!!! Post pix when you can!!

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by MyLovelyNiko

I appreciate your opinion but I would have to say that you have NO IDEA what you are speaking of. Everyone has a different experience and expect different things from someone that will impact their lives forever. If you do not talk to your breeder about everything, then that's your personal preference. I like to be well informed... and if I were expecting a child I would do the same with my doctor, midwife, lactation specialist, etc. Why? Because to me, my "pup" is my child esp. considering the fact that I do not have children. Niko will forever be a part of my life, long after his is over. I am committed to him and his welfare. The first thing I would like to mention is things had began "appearing" shady WAY before a death in a family. If you had an issue with what I said here then why did you not mention it in the PM you sent? I have no problem with people sharing their opinion but what does irk me is when they are NOT informed enough to make a meaningful argument about the situation. (Perhaps, I did not reveal enough details or maybe wasn't specific enough...needless to say, I don't have the time or energy to type the entire "courtship" on a public forum.) I came here merely for suggestions and information. I quickly typed up what was happening at that moment. And if a breeder says that you can call anytime, I wouldn't think me calling once or twice a week would be worrisome. In fact, I would thank the heavens for blessing me with someone who cares to hear about their pup's development...you and I differ and there is nothing wrong with that. But as I mentioned before, the pup WAS NOT CARGO. I didn't even go near the cargo section to pick him up and was well informed about his condition throughout the duration of his flight, even when they arrived a tad earlier than I expected. He received Nutri-Cal as soon as I got him.

And of course I was worried about the condition of the pup...why else would I call her for a weekly update? Ask about how she is socializing him with various "types" of people. (Women, men, children, etc.) Why else would I ask about the feeding schedule and type of food, and shot records, and vet visits. I CARE...if I didn't I wouldn't waste time searching yorkietalk about various information...there would be no point. Yes, the pup came at 10 weeks but I am not going to reject the pup that I fell in love with to run away from the breeder b/c of a 2 week difference. If she didn't want him of course I will take him. There are plenty of people that have gotten pups @ 8 wks. I shouldn't be the "bad guy" because of my breeders decision.

And as far as priorities are concerned...please don't disrespect me by saying they are misplaced. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE...YOU WOULDN'T KNOW ME IF I WALKED UP AND SHOOK YOUR HAND. That was rude, and for someone to be so highly regarded on YT, that took me by surprise. I pray you well, not sure if I will continue to be on this site, I have done nothing wrong to deserve talk like that, and hurt my feelings, it did. But I can assure you regardless of my status here, Niko will be well taken care of.

THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE BEEN SO SUPPORTIVE AND HELPFUL INCLUDING FIDebra. I TRULY APPRECIATE IT!

You certainly have misread/misinterpreted and even MISPOKE quite a bit here! This is a forum where you are bound to get differing responses when you ASK for advice. Many will always just commensurate with the poster and tell you what you want to hear. I tried to be fair to both the buyer & seller. You asked if you were being too needy and in your face. You asked for input. I tried to word it as carefully as I could. You said, "I mean how do you begin to explain the pain and violation you feel when someone you trust with a life...your puppy's life begins to act so bizarre?" and I just still do not see anything that I would classify as bizarre or anything that should have made you feel such "pain and violation." If there were more "bizarre" actions, I would have thought they would have made the cut in your synopsis.

First of all -- I HAVE NEVER SENT YOU A PM as you said in your post! Are you confusing me with someone else or what? I double-checked to make sure -- but NO PMs to you ever! I have also NOT disrespected you or made any of the insinuations you accuse me of.

With the exception of questioning the pup traveling in the cabin without an escort, I ONLY replied to things you said. I did ask for the name of the airline and the service you said your pup was provided as that would be a WONDERFUL option for those needing to ship a pup. You did not answer that. Perhaps I should have said luggage instead of cargo? I cannot find any airlines offering to fly unaccompanied dogs in the pasenger cabin as you said. I am not saying it didn't happen -- I just wanted to know which airline was providing this service. I know there are several escort services, but you did not say they were using one of those.

As I mentioned, I only had what YOU said to go on when formulating my reply to you. First you said, "I have spent hours on the phone with her. Shared tons of email, almost on a daily basis." but now you say, "I wouldn't think me calling once or twice a week would be worrisome. " Big difference in the picture you are painting then and now.

I, too, like to be well-informed, which to me includes THOROUGHLY researching the breeder before I EVER make contact. That way I know who I'm dealing with, her practices, her history, references, what her dogs look like as adults, how she treats her dogs, etc.... I'd know how long she gives her pups the benefit of staying with mom & siblings, how she ships, etc. Being well-informed would also include reading all I could on preparing for the arrival of my pup. There is a LOT to help on that count right here (including a list of supplies).

I don't know why you think I had any problem with you wanting to be informed. I was trying to make the point that if the breeder had already particpated in first almost daily phone calls, then copious emails, a "plethora" of pictures sent to you, etc...that it did seem like she had provided some pretty intense communication. You made a list of 6 things that seemed to be leading to your "pain and violation" --

1. she crates her dogs; 2. She's a member here & you found posts that scare you. 3. She told you she's trying to keep calls down for phone bill & you think she's short with you in emails. 4. You asked for contract & she told you they had a death in the family & she was attending the funeral that day but would get back to you. 5. You asked her to send a blanket or toy and she said she would see what she could do. 6. You asked for a list of supplies & she has not sent it yet. (Here is a link to YT Puppy Care Guide which includes a list of supplies: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...w-parents.html)

I just don't get "pain & violation" out of that. I tried to tell you I'd be more concerned about the fact she was letting the pup go so young and especially shipping so young. I did not "make you the bad guy" for that NOR did I say your priorities were misplaced. I put all of the onus on placing the pup before 12 weeks on the breeder and suggested what I thought the priorities were. My words were: "Concentrate on the things that are priorities -- like the age of the pup being shipped solo! "

I also ended my reply to you saying, ". You sound like a person that will devote yourself to your little one as it deserves. Just try hard to set priorities of what is most important to your PUP'S health and welfare. That is what is important! Be sure to bring some Nutrical with you to the airport! Good luck to you both and I hope he becomes a special member of your family! " Does that sound like I am questioning you caring about your pup? NO!

You use some very emotion-provoking language -- "pain and violation ...act so bizarre... "courtship" ... really ashamed ... don't chew me up and spit me out ... don't want to known as the dumb newbie, or feel outcasted (sic)...
and now directly to me ..."you have NO IDEA what you are speaking of ... NOT informed enough to make a meaningful argument about the situation... I shouldn't be the "bad guy" ... YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE ... That was rude ... hurt my feelings ... not sure if I will continue to be on this site,..." Don't you think maybe this is a little over the top? Maybe over-reacting a bit and just a little melodramatic? I never said anything to insinuate you were uncaring or in any way not going to provide a good home for your pup -- I said just the opposite. I never said there was anything wrong with being well-informed, I did insinuate that expecting continuous daily phone contacts might be a little much. I do feel I am well-informed and HAVE A CLUE but I accept your right to disagree. BUT I don't like when someone twists my words, says I say things I have not and even makes things up like this supposed PM that I never made.

If you really feel it is fine for us to have differing opinions, you're not showing it with the rest of your words. I have not said anything rude to you, I just did not jump on the bandwagon to bash a breeder I don't know without justification. She might not be a good breeder, I don't know. But to bash her for trying to taper down incessant phone calls and failing to send info the day of a family funeral seemed a bit drastic to me. But that is just MHO. I do wish you & your new baby well! Nothing like a new Yorkie pup! So sweet, lovable and full of life!

[concretegurl]

Anyways...looking forward to the pics!

[NGessner]

BRAVO FL DEBRA!!!!!

[tegamom1]

I too think it would be wonderful for you to share the airline information. I know there are people on this forum that do ship / transport puppies occasionally and would love to know of other possibilities.

Happy you found your new little addition to your family.

[julietravels]

Yes, please share the airline as I think this is a great service.

[Lil Sis]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I am going to be devil's advocate here -- Reading through your post it really seems like this lady has bent over backwards accomodating your need for excessive contact. In your own words she has spent hours on the phone with you, daily emails, plethora of photos documenting the pups progress, shared grooming & show tips, and she has not refused to do anything you asked. You even say that this is only a synopsis of your "courtship." So who knows how much communication has actually gone back and forth?

She had a death in the family and was a little later than you wanted on getting some MORE information sent to you and for that you are going to create doubt about a breeder on a public forum? I know you didn't name her here, but you've already shared by PM and it will get out eventually. I would ask yourself if maybe, just maybe, you have gone a little beyond the normal buyer to breeder contact? I certainly never had that much communication with anyone before buying their puppies. I would never have presumed to take that much of their life.

The only things I can see this person did wrong was to allow a puppy to leave her momma before 12 weeks and not make her contract/health guarantee part of her public website. Some people are still old school and not with the modern recommendations of keeping puppies a MINIMUM of 12 weeks. I also do not personally agree with shipping puppies unless in the cabin WITH a courier. (She can tell you the pup is not going to be in the cargo hold, but how many times have you seen a dog in the cabin of an aircraft unless they are travelling WITH someone and kept under the seat WITH them. The pup is going in cargo -- just a separate corner of the cargo hold.) For those questions, sure -- ask away and get opinions here. But when you have had THIS MUCH interaction with a breeder prior to getting your puppy, I sure would not panic because she wanted to attend a funeral before sending your paperwork. Concentrate on the things that are priorities -- like the age of the pup being shipped solo! That is the thing that is the most critical component of this whole thread IMO. I can live with a couple less phone calls than I wanted but not with taking a risk of removing the pup too early from the mother and shipping without escort -- but it seems these things don't bother you at all. It seems like misplaced priorities to me.

Hoping not to alienate you with my honesty but I thought it would be good for you to read "the other side" of the coin and think about your priorities as you begin this wonderful challenge of puppy ownership. It is a huge responsibility and one that is well-rewarded.

Today is the day your little one is supposed to arrive, so I guess there will be no changing that factor now. I do hope all goes well. You sound like a person that will devote yourself to your little one as it deserves. Just try hard to set priorities of what is most important to your PUP'S health and welfare. That is what is important! Be sure to bring some Nutrical with you to the airport! Good luck to you both and I hope he becomes a special member of your family!

Originally Posted by FlDebra

BTW -- I wanted to make sure you know I am not sticking up for this breeder at all -- I would pass just because of her shipping a 10 week old puppy. (I keep seeing images in my mind of that little one shivering and shaking in the cargo hold today, scared out of its little mind at the noise and lack of human contact!) I just wanted to make the point of which things should really be the major concern -- the puppy's welfare and not the frequency of daily phone calls.

Originally Posted by MyLovelyNiko

I appreciate your opinion but I would have to say that you have NO IDEA what you are speaking of. Everyone has a different experience and expect different things from someone that will impact their lives forever. If you do not talk to your breeder about everything, then that's your personal preference. I like to be well informed... and if I were expecting a child I would do the same with my doctor, midwife, lactation specialist, etc. Why? Because to me, my "pup" is my child esp. considering the fact that I do not have children. Niko will forever be a part of my life, long after his is over. I am committed to him and his welfare. The first thing I would like to mention is things had began "appearing" shady WAY before a death in a family. If you had an issue with what I said here then why did you not mention it in the PM you sent? I have no problem with people sharing their opinion but what does irk me is when they are NOT informed enough to make a meaningful argument about the situation. (Perhaps, I did not reveal enough details or maybe wasn't specific enough...needless to say, I don't have the time or energy to type the entire "courtship" on a public forum.) I came here merely for suggestions and information. I quickly typed up what was happening at that moment. And if a breeder says that you can call anytime, I wouldn't think me calling once or twice a week would be worrisome. In fact, I would thank the heavens for blessing me with someone who cares to hear about their pup's development...you and I differ and there is nothing wrong with that. But as I mentioned before, the pup WAS NOT CARGO. I didn't even go near the cargo section to pick him up and was well informed about his condition throughout the duration of his flight, even when they arrived a tad earlier than I expected. He received Nutri-Cal as soon as I got him.

And of course I was worried about the condition of the pup...why else would I call her for a weekly update? Ask about how she is socializing him with various "types" of people. (Women, men, children, etc.) Why else would I ask about the feeding schedule and type of food, and shot records, and vet visits. I CARE...if I didn't I wouldn't waste time searching yorkietalk about various information...there would be no point. Yes, the pup came at 10 weeks but I am not going to reject the pup that I fell in love with to run away from the breeder b/c of a 2 week difference. If she didn't want him of course I will take him. There are plenty of people that have gotten pups @ 8 wks. I shouldn't be the "bad guy" because of my breeders decision.

And as far as priorities are concerned...please don't disrespect me by saying they are misplaced. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE...YOU WOULDN'T KNOW ME IF I WALKED UP AND SHOOK YOUR HAND. That was rude, and for someone to be so highly regarded on YT, that took me by surprise. I pray you well, not sure if I will continue to be on this site, I have done nothing wrong to deserve talk like that, and hurt my feelings, it did. But I can assure you regardless of my status here, Niko will be well taken care of.

THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE BEEN SO SUPPORTIVE AND HELPFUL INCLUDING FIDebra. I TRULY APPRECIATE IT!

I am so happy all is well and your puppy arrived safe and sound!!!

I think you have had a week that caused you stress... but I honestly do not think FlaDeb meant any harm or was out of line. She was trying to answer and respond to your questions.. I think because you were stress you mis read her intent. And some of the choice of words were confusing. Please be careful what is written, we can not take it back (a painful lesson I have learned myself). I am so glad you are so happy with your puppy but you questions could have caused a good breeder a lot of trouble.. I am assuming that the breeder came through for you?

I would Love to know the airline.. it could be information we all could use in the future.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I'm confused - I don't remember seeing a breeder mentioned by name or any other reference but maybe I have missed a post. I think I do remember reading a post refusing to post the name due to concerns of not getting the pup. There is so much on this site posted by breeders and others about how to recognize disreputable breeders and what to do when one runs afoul of one, I think she got spooked and posted out of worry. I am so glad it worked out and the baby is home.

[smepperson]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I'm confused - I don't remember seeing a breeder mentioned by name or any other reference but maybe I have missed a post. I think I do remember reading a post refusing to post the name due to concerns of not getting the pup. There is so much on this site posted by breeders and others about how to recognize disreputable breeders and what to do when one runs afoul of one, I think she got spooked and posted out of worry. I am so glad it worked out and the baby is home.

[MyLovelyNiko]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Glad to hear it...if things work out hope you could recommend the breeder to everyone here...finding a good breeder is hard those who are ethical, responsible, product quality, healthy pups should be talked about as much as the adverse...

I wish I could recommend her. But the only thing she has done right is to vaccinate and deworm and actually shipping him with "greeter" so to speak. She has done plenty wrong but I am just happy that he is happy, healthy, and full of personality. (I hope to leave a "review" for the breeder very soon to warn others against such a person.)

[Lumpysmama]

as a newbie replies to posts like this make me wanna not post here and run

But...

I am sorry you have had such a rough go of life and as of late on here as well. There is some amazing information posted that will help you care for your new baby. Please stay and take a break from posting if you must but to leave such a knowledgeable forum would be a shame to you and yours.