Wanted to Ask

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I agree that no one should ignore the basics. I suspect that these types of breeders don't bother with vetting their own dogs.

I also think that the return policy breeders have is bogus. We're not talking about a jacket, or a clock radio, we're talking about cute fluffy puppies. I would think it's safe to assume that the large majority of people fall in love instantly with their puppies and will do anything and everything to get them better. Greeders know this and know that people aren't as heartless as they are. The buyers keep their sick dog, and the greeders keep their precious money. How many go after the greeders for help with vet bills? I think that number is small as well. It's a win win for the greeders in that case. They are no longer financially responsible for a sick dog, and they even profit from the poor pup.

You said it! I wish giardia and coccidia were the issues I had in such a scenario, even if the whip worms were the extent, I'd shush! So true the basics are a serious issue but I think they prelude to the overll issues in the breeders out there. BTW this breeder told me she only bred AKC standard Yorkies and had gotten a Parti to see how it went in her kennel...

Elvis was 2 years old when I got him breeder told me she had to re-home him because he grew too large for her breeding program and she was devastated to have to do this...blah blah blah...she sent me a basic contract I screened her like no one's business! What I missed like like the broad side of a barn was despite her giving me all the right answers, it was all just what she said completely unverifiable and I bought it and Elvis hook line and sinker.

Elvis arrive to me (yes he was shipped) with worms, bad teeth, which were immediately caught at the vet well check-well these were all correctable he at 2 years old needed a deep scrapping something he shouldn't need until about 5 but my vet said if he'd even gone a few more months he'd be looking at decay to the point of tooth removal-he had whip worms-they aren't in my area-period I only had him a couple days he had worms at all stages of life-the breeder said they are common and that even though her contract said she dewormed regularly (apparently they get in the grass/soil and reinfest), she must have missed it and his teeth were fine my vet was over reacting. This was beyond the fact he was supposed to arrive with his limited AKC registration and later she said no I sold him as a pet-no registration, she guaranteed a completely copy of his vet records to arrive with him since she had gotten him at 9 weeks-no records arrived, not to even mention he came with X & O red looking kibble (her excuse was she forgot food and bought some junk food at the grocery store on the way to the airport) oh and he had no fleas but had loads of flea pooh in his fur and a horrid pup cut! I let it all go....after a couple weeks Elvis was back at the vet-all his joints make a LOUD popping sound regularly when he gets up and down-she was diagnosed with an 'early onset' arthritis...I contacted her again...

Finally Elvis had three seizures-I was freaking out I'd never had an animal with seizures his seizures are different from a typical seizure-he goes stiff and completely hard he doesn't shake or go grand mal- he was diagnosed with cluster seizures (a form of epilepsy) he has multiple seizure at one time. Again I contacted the breeder who seemed distressed-what did he get into was her first response to me! First the worms were probably from me now his seizures! Then she let me know she'd just had a female of hers give birth to two pups from him...WHAT!? he was too big for her females! We went back and forth I told her no matter what I couldn't return him she offered another pup...it turned into a mess in the end all I wanted was his previous vet records...she finally told me to take the issue to court I was only entitled to a replacement pup...if Elvis died, I returned him, or I sent him to her for her vet to examine and she deemed our contract enforceable...

So (sorry for the long post here) despite the contract having a health guarantee, an assurance of flea treatment, appropriate foods having been fed, worming, etc

I got a 2 year old dog with cluster seizures, bad teeth, worms, arthritis, no vet records at 2 years old, and no AKC paperwork for him in my name...my recourse to sue someone and despite the contract we have to go by the state law there and the contract stipulates "replacement pup," she even suggested he be put down if the arthritis was so bad-WHAT!-he just needed glucosamine and cosaquin supplements for it!

How could I as a human being send him back? I could have avoided buying him had I known, but send him back considering-well Elaine Shelborne of Shelborne's Yorkies (Dleaware) pulled one over on me...buyer beware. Too bad here isn't better authority to monitor breeding-it comes down to buyers controlling the market, we need to be less naive. I fell for a sad story of a nice lady who needed to re-home her stud so she could better care for the dogs useful in her breeding program...so naive,

I never sued her, but I've thousands in vet bills for him, two revolving balances on credit cards and a costly monthly expenses in his dietary and prescription costs. Never heard about what became of the two pups she said she'd place them in homes and warning the people but I'm guessing she sold them saying nothing, considering she still has Elvis listed as in her breeding program to this day.

Oh and I wasn't aware of her web site until after I got Elvis-i could have better seen a clearer picture if I'd seen it...FYI everyone else...
Shelborne's Yorkies
Sorry for the long post, but that's my experience of how little issues how a HUGE underlying issues in irresponsible breeding by Greeders. This lady remains an AKC breeder-she didn't breed Elvis, Terry Castonguay did known apparently for having serious health issues in her line, either or AKC breeder certification doesn't mean squat in reality, they do not get involved in buyer seller issues.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

You said it! I wish giardia and coccidia were the issues I had in such a scenario, even if the whip worms were the extent, I'd shush! So true the basics are a serious issue but I think they prelude to the overll issues in the breeders out there. BTW this breeder told me she only bred AKC standard Yorkies and had gotten a Parti to see how it went in her kennel...

Elvis was 2 years old when I got him breeder told me she had to re-home him because he grew too large for her breeding program and she was devastated to have to do this...blah blah blah...she sent me a basic contract I screened her like no one's business! What I missed like like the broad side of a barn was despite her giving me all the right answers, it was all just what she said completely unverifiable and I bought it and Elvis hook line and sinker.

Elvis arrive to me (yes he was shipped) with worms, bad teeth, which were immediately caught at the vet well check-well these were all correctable he at 2 years old needed a deep scrapping something he shouldn't need until about 5 but my vet said if he'd even gone a few more months he'd be looking at decay to the point of tooth removal-he had whip worms-they aren't in my area-period I only had him a couple days he had worms at all stages of life-the breeder said they are common and that even though her contract said she dewormed regularly (apparently they get in the grass/soil and reinfest), she must have missed it and his teeth were fine my vet was over reacting. This was beyond the fact he was supposed to arrive with his limited AKC registration and later she said no I sold him as a pet-no registration, she guaranteed a completely copy of his vet records to arrive with him since she had gotten him at 9 weeks-no records arrived, not to even mention he came with X & O red looking kibble (her excuse was she forgot food and bought some junk food at the grocery store on the way to the airport) oh and he had no fleas but had loads of flea pooh in his fur and a horrid pup cut! I let it all go....after a couple weeks Elvis was back at the vet-all his joints make a LOUD popping sound regularly when he gets up and down-she was diagnosed with an 'early onset' arthritis...I contacted her again...

Finally Elvis had three seizures-I was freaking out I'd never had an animal with seizures his seizures are different from a typical seizure-he goes stiff and completely hard he doesn't shake or go grand mal- he was diagnosed with cluster seizures (a form of epilepsy) he has multiple seizure at one time. Again I contacted the breeder who seemed distressed-what did he get into was her first response to me! First the worms were probably from me now his seizures! Then she let me know she'd just had a female of hers give birth to two pups from him...WHAT!? he was too big for her females! We went back and forth I told her no matter what I couldn't return him she offered another pup...it turned into a mess in the end all I wanted was his previous vet records...she finally told me to take the issue to court I was only entitled to a replacement pup...if Elvis died, I returned him, or I sent him to her for her vet to examine and she deemed our contract enforceable...

So (sorry for the long post here) despite the contract having a health guarantee, an assurance of flea treatment, appropriate foods having been fed, worming, etc

I got a 2 year old dog with cluster seizures, bad teeth, worms, arthritis, no vet records at 2 years old, and no AKC paperwork for him in my name...my recourse to sue someone and despite the contract we have to go by the state law there and the contract stipulates "replacement pup," she even suggested he be put down if the arthritis was so bad-WHAT!-he just needed glucosamine and cosaquin supplements for it!

How could I as a human being send him back? I could have avoided buying him had I known, but send him back considering-well Elaine Shelborne of Shelborne's Yorkies (Dleaware) pulled one over on me...buyer beware. Too bad here isn't better authority to monitor breeding-it comes down to buyers controlling the market, we need to be less naive. I fell for a sad story of a nice lady who needed to re-home her stud so she could better care for the dogs useful in her breeding program...so naive,

I never sued her, but I've thousands in vet bills for him, two revolving balances on credit cards and a costly monthly expenses in his dietary and prescription costs. Never heard about what became of the two pups she said she'd place them in homes and warning the people but I'm guessing she sold them saying nothing, considering she still has Elvis listed as in her breeding program to this day.

Oh and I wasn't aware of her web site until after I got Elvis-i could have better seen a clearer picture if I'd seen it...FYI everyone else...
Shelborne's Yorkies
Sorry for the long post, but that's my experience of how little issues how a HUGE underlying issues in irresponsible breeding by Greeders. This lady remains an AKC breeder-she didn't breed Elvis, Terry Castonguay did known apparently for having serious health issues in her line, either or AKC breeder certification doesn't mean squat in reality, they do not get involved in buyer seller issues.

I just wanted to clarify I never asked her to pay for vet bills or return my money I literally went back to what do we do here based on your contract and that was after she refused to send his full vet records or released them to my vet...honestly she should have refunded all I paid for Elvis and considered him "petted out" in cases of accidental (every breeder even the best will have a sick pup at some point) health issues genetic disprders, well the purchase price should be REFUNDED, (maybe a replacement but) what about buyers like me-I have a sick dog for the rest of his life-he has special needs, extensive costs I can't afford another puppy left alone devote the needed attention to one considering...the breeder I got Elvis from had a loop hole-her contract was for dogs she bred-she didn't breed Elvis she re-homed him to me-yes she pulled a nasty deceitful sneaky, yes I can sue her, but at what effort and what extent of more costs from me...

I vote the standard is refunded purchase price not vet bill coverage a responsible breeder would consider the dog sick and petted out and leave it to the buyer to continue medical care or to send the pup (dog) back. A replacement pup-well that seems nice, I almost got one and would have if the breeder didn't change her mind-but in reality I would have been worse off with a replacement pup. Sorry i just had to add that I think that's the solution that would work best in situations like this-with minor issues that require de-worming and antibiotics...well if it was assured such was to be done in the contract-sorry breeders pay up for the vet bills. Wish the AKC had more authority and made breeders use AKC contracts or something.

[caw]

How scarey!!...If even the most knowledgeable can be fooled out of literally THOUSANDS and be contractually scammed!! I don't know people. I don't believe in puppy mills...would never buy from one unless I was tricked..... I wouldn't buy a puppy from a pet store....never have and never will because I've known for years that they sell puppy mill dogs. In fact, Daisy is the first dog I have "ever" bought. I used to ride, train and show horses and of course, I was out and about in the country all the time. "That's" where all MY animals came from.....the side of the road. All lived long, healthy lives...one lived 16 years. Thought he'd never die. I never had to take any of my "orphans" to the vet except for their annual wellness check until they were really old and nearing the end. "How ironic". There has to exist a happy medium somewhere. Where you can get your money back if your dog is really unhealthy, but you don't have to pay literally thousands of dollars for a pet to love. I don't think pets should be the "right" of the wealthiest only. Then we are regressing back to 19th century thinking where the wealthy dictate to the working middle class people what they can and cannot "do" or "have".

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by caw

Hi Nancy!!...well..you have a point. If they take complete responsibility for any inherited genetic defects that show up in a dog and any and all subsequent treatments, tests and medications necessary...for the entire life of the dog.................I read on another thread where some guy bought a dog from a pet shop and it ended up with a shunt. So far, he's paid out $10,000.00 in vet bills for treatment to save the dogs life. That wasn't a typo....That's in addition to the hefty price I'm sure he paid for the dog. I'm sure anywhere between, what, 1,500 and 3,800? Anyway, he thought the dog would be healthy afterwards and is presently very dissapointed because the dog has to be on a special diet the rest of it's life and will still be under threat of getting sick again and dying for the rest of his life .....I'm sure he will have LOTS of subsequent visits to the vet as a result of the shunt. I feel really sorry for him.

I use to believe that good dogs could be found a pet shops, and of course anything possible, but pet shop dogs usually come from puppy mills. The pet store has a huge mark up on dogs. Responsible breeders would never sell to a pet store because they have no control on who buys a dog. A responsible breeder wants to make sure the human is a good match for the dog, and can provide it the care it needs. Pet shops will sell to anyone with the money. A backyard breeder's puppies are probably no healthier than a millers dogs, but at least the breeding dogs are kept in humane conditions.

[caw]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I use to believe that good dogs could be found a pet shops, and of course anything possible, but pet shop dogs usually come from puppy mills. The pet store has a huge mark up on dogs. Responsible breeders would never sell to a pet store because they have no control on who buys a dog. A responsible breeder wants to make sure the human is a good match for the dog, and can provide it the care it needs. Pet shops will sell to anyone with the money. A backyard breeder's puppies are probably no healthier than a millers dogs, but at least the breeding dogs are kept in humane conditions.

I agree with you on all you say. When I bought Daisy from the backyard breeder. I knew before I called her up that if I bought a puppy from her that there wouldn't be any guarantees because that isn't what you get from that type of breeder.....and at least she didn't bother to try and make me "think" any differently. I mean I knew it was one of those deals where someone has a pretty nice female dog and knows someone that has a pretty nice male dog and they get together and say "Oh...wouldn't they make the cutest pups?!.......She knew before I went there I wasn't looking to pay more than 300.00 for one of her dogs. Both of Daisy's parents are pet quality yorkies and only have limited registrations on them....I didn't care because I don't ever want to breed a dog of mine anyway. I had done some research on yorkshires before I ever inquired about buying one. I bought some books and talked to the vet at petsmart that told me NOT to get a "teacup" or "tiny" and why. When I went to the breeder's home, the puppies were in a play pen in the middle of the living room. The momma dog was the "only" dog around on the property and clearly the family pet. The home was clean and nice as were the surroundings. "She" was an RN and asked me "loads" of questions. She asked me where I was going to keep Daisy, what I did for a living, where I worked, my hours, how long it had been since I had owned a dog or had a puppy, and even reminded me about how destructive puppies could be......anything to discourage me from buying...she seemed to do. She also had shot records from a very nice vet clinic here in Waco on each of the pups, had had all the dew claws removed and tails docked and told me about hypoglycemia and nutrical and what they were currently feeding on....which was one of the better foods. She had clearly taken care of the puppies. I didn't see the daddy dog but she told me about him and who's dog he was. He was a 5 1/2 pounder and the momma, Gigi, was a 6 1/2 pounder. After I had owned Daisy for about a month, she called me up, out of the blue, to make sure I still wanted the dog. I like raising a pup because I know how it's life began, even if it was dumped on the side of the road at 8 weeks....and Daisy had a good start and she's leading a great life now. I LOVE my smart, beautiful little girl.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I use to believe that good dogs could be found a pet shops, and of course anything possible, but pet shop dogs usually come from puppy mills. The pet store has a huge mark up on dogs. Responsible breeders would never sell to a pet store because they have no control on who buys a dog. A responsible breeder wants to make sure the human is a good match for the dog, and can provide it the care it needs. Pet shops will sell to anyone with the money. A backyard breeder's puppies are probably no healthier than a millers dogs, but at least the breeding dogs are kept in humane conditions.

Not necessarily. I've seen some conditions of BYB's that would turn your stomach. The only reason they weren't legally classified as mills is they kept just under the volume that would trigger having to register. Obviously, not all are kept in squalid conditions, but it isn't safe to assume that your BYB dog had a better start than the one from the mill.

[Britster]

That always shocks me too! I got Jackson from a BYB but I went into her house to see the puppies and he never had worms, fleas, parasites, kennel cough, or any of those other things I often hear about puppies having. I never even had to use a dewormer on him or anything. So it always blows my mind reading about how poor that people can take care of puppies.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Not necessarily. I've seen some conditions of BYB's that would turn your stomach. The only reason they weren't legally classified as mills is they kept just under the volume that would trigger having to register. Obviously, not all are kept in squalid conditions, but it isn't safe to assume that your BYB dog had a better start than the one from the mill.

Yeah, you're right. That's why I always preach, go to the home of the breeder and see for yourself.

[caw]

Originally Posted by Rhetts_mama

Not necessarily. I've seen some conditions of BYB's that would turn your stomach. The only reason they weren't legally classified as mills is they kept just under the volume that would trigger having to register. Obviously, not all are kept in squalid conditions, but it isn't safe to assume that your BYB dog had a better start than the one from the mill.

You're right. That can happen too. I wouldn't have bought Daisy if it had looked like she was coming from a "white trash" joint filled with "white trash" people. It sounds like, no matter what you do, what you might know, or how careful you try to be, you can still get "ripped".....and like I stated in an earlier post..........all this is "scary"........especially if you're contemplating dumping a few "thou" into some strangers hand.