No I was just trying to figure it out, why you wouldn't have noticed the blood or all the wetness coming from her.
I have never know of any bitch leaving a pup like that, and was trying to figure it out, how she cut the cord, and the got the placenta out, and ran in like nothing ever happened.

Ron, there are a couple of things you need to watch out for at this time. You need to watch out for mastitis, since Gracie has no pups to nurse. Her teats could become engorged and an infection set in. Also, a discharge from her vulva is normal for some time (up to a couple of weeks) after giving birth but you should check to make sure it's not smelly. That would be a sign of an infection.

The best thing to do at this time is to take her in to your vet and have her checked. He/she could give you further advice on what to watch out for and check her present state of health.

We had her at vet on Friday with the 1 pup. We will call them back tomorrow to seek advice since the pup died and to ensure her care is where it needsto be.

Thanks for your help.

Then I obviously misunderstood what you were trying to convey to him with your first post. It seems to be very evident that many responsible breeder have now come on to state what it mean to be responsible and back up what has so many people inflamed this morning.

just reading this for the 1st time , sorry for all the hurt you have gone through :( sending good wishes your way ;) love jill n poppy xx :aimeeyork

It is fine to express opinions regarding this thread, because that is allowed on all threads. However, please try to show some compassion. There is nothing wrong with telling someone how you feel, while couching it in a bit of compassion...and a bit of understanding, regardless of the situation.

I think Jim said it best in that, this is a very tragic but preventable loss. It is very sad, on so many levels.

Ron, it is too late now - but I sure wish you had had a mentor to help you with this whelping. Whelpings are life and death situations, and in this case, it resulted in deaths. Please understand that it's difficult for many of us to fathom how one could allow a whelping/breeding to occur without first having exhaustive education regarding breeding. We see tragedies here at YT similar to this, so people are (understandably) very emotional when they see losses such as this. Also Ron, it doesn't help that your replies are pouring fuel on the fire, intentionally. It is up to you too, as a member, to show some understanding in terms of what others may be feeling. It goes both ways.

Please get your precious girl spayed, and take this experience to heart. I wish your girl the best of luck as she heals from this.

OK....This is ENOUGH!

I know Ron has been arguing with most of you. WE know that we did wrong by her (Gracie). We didn't come here to be called names and labeled as abusive dog owners. I would like to make a few point CLEAR!

1) Gracie has NEVER spent a night in the garage in a wire cage! She has never spent a night in the garage PERIOD! (If you feel the need to know...98% of the time she sleep in bed curled up to RON)

2) For those of you upset at Ron for putting her in her kennel with some poo on her...I understand. I can honestly say I wasn't really happy about that when he told me about it either. But.....it is what it is. If I had been awake...then YES, she would have been cleaned off...which means I HOPEFULLY would have noticed that she was a little more than "wet" on hind end. But there is also no guarantee that I would have thought too much about it. We didn't realize she would be delivering so early. (I say "early" because of when we THOUGHT she should deliver...she actually delivered right on time)

3) We are not now or ever have been a "animal abuser"! She is LOVED and VERY SPOILED...just like Crystal (our Yorkie we had for 14 yrs) was!

4) We did not plan on breeding her in her last heat cycle. Do to circumstances with myself and our kids being out of town and my husband at work our neighbors were helping to take care of our dogs. They did not know that she was in heat. We did not know that she was in heat until it was too late. So after the deed was done we started educating ourselves. Our PLAN was to do the education before we decided IF we would breed her or not. I'm sure that someone will take issue with the fact that we left our neighbors to care for our dogs....well, I'm sorry....I thought being taken care of by people that they KNEW and that loved them too would be better than boarding them with complete strangers to leave them wondering where we went and why. Atleast they were both still at home..together.

5) Gracie is NOT a breeding machine for MONEY! THAT'S SICK! We Love her! The one thing we wished we'd always had from Crystal was a pup from her. We were/are in NO WAY interested in becoming "breeders". Yes, our family started expressing interest in her pups when we found out she was indeed pregnant. We didn't know how many pups she would have...so yes, we were looking ahead at good homes for her babies IF she had a several.

6) As soon as we figured out what was going on we were on the phone with the Vet! We did EVERYTHING he told us to do! INCLUDING taking them both in to be checked out right away! I told him everything that gracie had been doing (behavior wise) and he said that it was ALL NORMAL! We gave her some fluids because the Vet said she was A LITTLE dehydrated. ALSO NORMAL! Also, for the person or people that keep saying that she was hiding her pup because she didn't trust Ron, please explain to my why she went in her kennel last night...picked up her pup and brought him TO RON. He picked the puppy and Gracie up and they all 3 sat on the couch together (with puppy and gracie in a blanket). Why would she do that if she feared his ability to care for her and her child?

7) For those of you that keep SCREAMING to spay our little girl.....you can simply go fly a kite. At this point in time we will NOT be spaying her. She will however in the future be spayed...but not because of YOUR opinions....but because..once again..we do NOT want to use her as a money making object!

This has been a VERY TERRIBLE way for us to learn things...that I openly admit! Please know that the ONLY reason I have spent MY TIME on here to justify ANY of these things is because I do NOT take kindly to being accused of animal abuse when I know in my heart, we did not abuse her! We did a very grave injustice to her and we know that! We are here looking for information and knowledge to make sure that something like this never happens again.

I hope I have made a few things clear that seemed to be getting blurred. I am in no way trying to "bag" on anyone or their opinions...I understand that you love your animals...so do we. I understand why you are upset with us...we're upset too. I understand that (hopefully) NO ONE would want to see a puppy (or mother) suffer...neither do we. We love our little girl and would never do anything to intentionally hurt her OR her puppies.

Thank you for your time in reading MY post.
Cassie

This is all so disturbing and senseless. I cannot imagine putting one of my girls in the crate for the night with poop on her butt. We, here at YT, are not perfect, but we ARE responsible pet owners and would have washed them up, no matter what the hour. That poor baby suffering and cold in the garage...that just breaks my heart. These two precious puppies should have had a chance to grow and thrive. One thing that struck me odd was there was no emotion in your thread. Where is the grieving and sadness for the loss of these two babies? Normally, someone who has just lost two babies, would not even be thinking of the "next" time she has pups.

Thanks for response. I do not undervalue the seriousness of the whelping process. Nor do I think I deserved the hate and labels of an abuser. I do not show any understanding to a person who does things like labeling and hating, especially while making assumptions. I refuse to stand by and allow this too happen without a response. I have spent time on here before formally joining to learn as I have with other resources, but that was assumed that i didn't and couldn't do that.

I bet I would have hadalot of different reponses had I just talked about the one pup that passed away this moring. Would have been a whole different conversation.

this is great.....

No emotion......to assume that I do not care and I am only thinking of the next time. What is done is done..I cannot change that. I am not happy about it, but I cannot hcange it. What I can do is learn and be more prepared for the next time. If there is a next time.

Every single one of you did something different the next time you did it. This was because to learned what to do and what not do. This is a natural thing to do. You ask questions to try and understand.

I appreciate opinions and guidance. I don't appreciate assumptions, labeling, and band wagon negativity. Every single one of us can look at the posts on this thread and think of a way to make it a more positive and learning message than what was typed.

Why on earth if you spent time one here and had other resources didn't you know that this could happen. You should have had a clue, I am not making any assumptions about you, but if you had all of this wealth of information and didn't know, then I really think you need to spay your girl. Breeding isn't a easy thing, anything can happen, but if you were on here before reading before you Joined today, why didn't you ask before, so you would know what you needed or at least have a more understanding of things that could happen.

I think it's hard for everyone to imagine the poor puppy suffering all night on the garage floor. Nobody said you did it on purpose or anything, it's just hard for us to picture as I'm sure it is for you. I'm sure the vast majority of people did not intend to insult you they were just giving you advice based on their plethora of knowledge and experience, no matter how frankly it was delivered. All that needs to be thought about is what is best for the dog. If you truly believe that you will be ready for next time you breed her if that is your intent then there's nothing anyone can say on here to stop you. If you think it might be best for her to get spayed (I saw you mentioned doing that in the future) you may want to do it now to prevent any heartache and reap the health benefits.

Since as you stated above you do not plan to spay or neuter this becomes of utmost importance in adding to the Yorkie world. Not making assumptions about your Yorkies so I will just ask outright.

Where did you acquire them from and what are their breeding lines like?

Do you have rights for breeding?
Many dogs are sold on limited registration that does not allow breeding. Reputable breeders do not sell on open registration.

Are the AKC registered?

Do you have contact with the breeder?
You might want to turn to the breeder that sold you your pair for further assistance with breeding. Having a mentor would have eliminated most of the tragedy that occurred.

Do you know about the health and background of your Yorkies?
These are both very important questions that you need to address prior to breeding her/him again. Once again, you can find this information from the breeder that you purchased from.

I am assuming from your previous posts as well that you are the owner of both the male and female. Have they both been tested for LS in the very least? I'm not even sure of all of the other testing that a reputable breeder does prior to breeding but there is a long list of tests that breeders give prior to mating their dogs.

Are you aware of the genetics involved with breeding? Many of the breeders here do extensive testing to help to ensure quality and healthy puppies that they produce.


How old is your little one and how much does she weigh? This is also something that needs to be taken into consideration prior to another litter of puppies.

I never said or thought something couldn't happen. So you are assuming I had no clue, but you are not assuming that......

It is so easy to continue to point and blame after the fact. You are all great at that.

We will leave. I know you all will be happy. Have fun in your world of blame, hate, and assumptions. It must be better than the learn, grow and help place I thought I found.

I really would like to know the answers to my list of questions. They are legitimate things that need to be considered.

Our advice was...
Spay your dog.

Your response was...
Go fly a kite.

As I said earlier in the day, some of us knew your position before you posted it.

I hope you wake up before your dog dies but sadly you will join the ranks of many before you who were given good advice that fell on deaf and stubborn ears. I'll say it again - spay your dog, it's her only hope.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I agree with everything megansmama has said.

I want to add that my stepdad and mom had a dog, a cockpoo who was around 20lbs. We live on 3 acres with 90 acres of farmland behind us.... she was a 'farm dog' as our our 'neighbors' who own all the land. She had free roam and was always allowed into the house whenever she wanted. She slept in my stepdad and moms bed nearly every night. She was spayed at around 6 months but only because me and my mom took her to the vet. And thank God she was because there was a little male poodle that loved to hump her down on the farm. :rolleyes: She would occasionally come back and be a muddy disaster and my stepdad would put her in the crate in the garage to sleep for the night....

is it the way *I* would choose to raise a dog?! No! I would never do that to Jackson, he would come in and get a bath, get cleaned off, etc. But it was all my step-dad knew. He loved the dog, she was taken care of in general, she always had food and water out, she would get professionally groomed every 12-13 weeks or so, etc. But she preferred to be outside. I don't believe in raising a dog this way because Jackson is my family, my friend and my loyal companion who would NOT do well outside by himself. But Carmen was different... and she was a VERY happy dog.

My stepdad still will tell stories of her and unfortunately, because of her free-roam being allowed, and her habit of chasing cars, my stepdad didnt see her one day and hit her and she died in his arms. He felt terrible and I do think it opened his eyes on a different way to raise a dog and he's great with Jackson now. He and we cried for a week over Carmen and still miss her. But she was a HAPPY dog, plain and simple. Yep, she would sleep in the garage all muddy some nights, and the next morning would come out of her crate so happy to see us and start her day all over again and the next day sleep soundly next to my step-dad in his bed. It doesn't make him a bad person. Sure he wasn't the greatest dog owner but it was simply because he didn't know! Now he does.... so I can only hope the OP has LEARNED something from this tragic event and will smarten up enough to get the dog spayed and NEVER let her go through this again. Everyone has to learn at some point!

my condolences to you and your pup.
what a sad way to learn a hard lesson, it was a mistake and i believe that you care for your dog. Before you breed her again, which it seems like you are regardless of the advice you have gotton on here. you really need a mentor and a vet on hand. I feel sorry for your situation that could have possibly been avoided with the proper knowlege
did you take her temp for days prior? to know she was about to whelp. mine show no signs at all besides a temp drop.
To answer your questions
The crate could have very well be the problem. she may have sufficated the pup. was it on the heating pad at the time? it could have been cold too? I know you brought the pup to the vet but sometimes they can just pass.

Are you kidding me? What a joke!

Yes, yes "threaten" to leave--because, by George THAT will teach us all a lesson.

There are times when new members get off on the wrong foot and consider leaving when I see people asking them to reconsider and stick around, and then there are times when I think it would benefit YT and be no big loss for them to carry through with their threats.

So to the OP--you can have your account deactivated by PMing Admin or a Moderator and requesting it. Then you can be free of all us high and mighty, keyboard welding, know it alls. I can assure you that you will not receive the coddling that you obviously came here in search of, so it's best you not waste everyone's time.

I'll leave it at that as addressing all your futile attempts to justify the mistreatment and abuse of your dog as well as the insults you've aimed at members would be not only very time consuming but also the equivalent of talking to a sack of flour.

I will do that. I know that you cannot be taught a lesson, or anyone else who has been so hateful on this thread. I could give a rat's ass about whether or not you care whether we stick around or not. You have all been such a welcoming group. You just automatically jump to assumptions and start flaming.

You all say you have this knowledge. I am sure you do, but communicating that is not your best trait.

None of this as planned as my wife stated. It is what it is, but each of you will find something to say about what should have been done or what you would.

Then by all means, get on with it. What are you waiting for?
Every single post you've made is about how you have not been made to feel welcome and how everyone is a know it all, etc etc. <yawn> Those who could help you are likely not inclined to do such at this point, as is evidence by the lack of support you've garnered.
So quit wasting time and be a man of your word.

Wow
 

wow! This person asked for advice and help from you guys and all yall did was be hatefull and disrespectful! Alot of what was wrote back to her was disgusting and this isn't a high school chat room. The fact is that the event already occured. ppl putting her down isn't going to change that and just because you tell her to spay her dog doesnt mean that she is so I would think the next best thing to do is hear her out and give the advice that you can so this doesn't happen again. I can understand that if what she wrote made you upset but theres a better way to express that then what yall have shown. she came here for advice not for a tongue lashing and if she didn't care then she wouldn't have bothered to write everyone asking for advice at all!! When I was 17 I was living on my own and saved a pregnent mini rat terrier from a bad situation. I knew around the time she was soppose to be due. I never had a expecting dog before I did all the research I could do, made her a whelping box and had a bed room all to her self. I left to go to the store to get groceries and I had a bad feeling in my gut and turned around to come back home. She had had two puppies one was not breathing and was starting to get cool. I suctioned her mouth and nose and tried to get some breath in her and it didn't work. the other survived and I was so upset and blamed my self for not being there or not knowing enough. I LOVED that dog and I loved her pup and it broke my heart !! now does that make me a bad person!! I makes me inexperienced, but not a bad person to where it would give a right for yall to say the horrible things you have to this person. Mistakes happened, yes I know that. and theres a way to get your point across than being plain out hatefull. I read her messages and a few ppl did give her advice that may help her for next time. the ones that were so upset with her didnt give any helpful advice at all! so what do you think your fussing is going to do? nothing. if this makes you upset then try to help her realize what next time she can watch out for so it wont happen agian. The way she was attacked makes me afraid to ask questions on here for the fear that I may to be in the line of fire. I would think she feels bad enough. I know I sure did. so can we all for the good of yorkies that we love help each other when the ppl need help the most or just tear them down so when they really do need some helpful advice they will be to afraid to ask for it?

:thumbup:

and I'm sorry I just reallied that you are a he not a she. sorry agian

I tried hard to make sure I had no name-calling or personal insults in my reply. I made sure to address the situation and not the person. I DID want you to understand breeding a yorkie is serious and that you had done grievious harm to your pups.

Did I know everything the first time I experienced my yorkie whelping? No, but I was well-read, mentored, and schooled by countless hours reading in the Breeder Talk here and other sites. I had my dogs tested and examined prior to breeding. I think I was prepared for just about every eventuality, knew what to look for, what to do,when to call in a vet, how to help the mom, what to do for the pup, how to examine them, what to watch the pups for.....etc.... I even had notes made up in case I forgot anything in the excitement. I had my supplies at the ready weeks before the date. I knew the day she would have the puppies and watched her like a hawk. I would never have let her go out in the rain alone at that time. I would not have let her alone in a garage or anywhere else for that matter. I wanted to make sure I was with her to help if needed. When she did have her pups, I tried to get her to have them in the prepared playyard with a whelping box. She didn't want to and kept moving to my bed. I decided to let her have her way, laid out an old comforter and let her have them there in my own bed so she would be comfortable and not try moving during the process. All I worried about was her being comfortable enough to safely have her pups. All went well.

A little over a year later, I did all the same preparation, all the same things as recommended and lost my girl. I was heartbroken! I took the blame because it was me who decided to let her breed. We HAVE to take the responsibility when something goes wrong. As it turned out, I could not handle that and have now neutered my male and will spay my new girl as soon as she is big enough. It hurts my heart that anyone would enter so lightly into this serious challenge of breeding a dear sweet yorkie. I hand-raised the 5 little pups Sadie left me. To think of any one of them alone on a cold, damp garage floor, breaks my heart.

I was upset that you would think nothing of putting a wet and poopy pregnant dog into a wire kennel for the night. I just can't imagine that feeling right to anyone. You obviously care about your dog in your way. I think there is something missing for you to be a good breeder though. You say you don't want to be a breeder, but breeding your dog as you did makes you one regardless how often or for how much money you do it. You can tell your cavalier attitude about your pregnant mom has upset many here on YT. We feel differently about these tiny bundles of joy than many do about their dogs. They are so fragile, so easily hurt, we MUST take a greater interest in their well-being. The old "momma dogs will take care of business themself" is not necessarily true about toy breeds. People bred them this fragile and people need to be responsible to help them. I think you are spending more time justifying yourself than actually letting these things sink in. That is why I think you should not breed your dog again. Not understanding how wrong this was is the biggest worry.

I am not your judge. You asked for advice. The advice is to spay your dog. I know that is not what you asked but people have to give you what they can in good conscious. I could not suggest ways to improve future breedings for you because you were not understanding the depths of what you did wrong. I am not perfect, and I guess I gave myself the same advice I am giving you as I did not think I could go through ever putting another yorkie girl in harm's way.

I would tell you the same thing in person and actually have told people in person to spay their pets and not consider breeding when I thought they were not right for the challenge. It is not a personal attack on you -- I don't know you. But you gave us the information that made most of us the reach the same conclusion -- spay your girl. Love her, enjoy her, keep her clean and dry and well attended.

:bravo::bravo

Oh my god! This just makes me sick. If you were going to "breed" her, or whatever you think is breeding, you should have done your research. I don't know much about breeding, but would have done heck of a lot more research than you have done. Seriously, leaving your dog in a crate when she was wet, you should have checked! Then for the excuse that it was raining outside, that is exactly what it is, an excuse!
And if you want to leave because you think all of us are rude and this isn't a way to treat a new member, then by all means, leave! We wouldn't have to treat you this way, if you wouldn't have done such a imature thing. It's like a person murdering someone, then saying that this person is such a great person. and you shouldn't be so rude. Well, you have done this to yourself.
Now, I am sincerely sorry for the loss of your pups. I know that you didn't WANT this to happen, but it did, and you can't go back and fix it. Like I said, I don't really know much about breeding so I can't really help you, but I'm sure somebody can.

Advice is wonderful. But answer the questions first then give it without being nasty. You have a better chance of someone listening to your advice if your words are kind. Like i yell at my kids and they do not listen, but when i explain my reasoning, kindly, first then i get a better response from them.

Perhaps you all will be fortunate enough to receive some of the distasteful, rude, and threating PMs from this person like I have received. (Although I'm sure some of you have...I can't imagine I am the only lucky one.) I'm sure that would clear the air a bit as to why he is getting the types of responses that he is. I'll be glad to forward it to those of you interested in getting a better understanding of this person.

Bottom line - there should be no next time. That is the only advice to give.

It may not be what the OP wants to hear; but that is the overwhelming advice that has been given.

It is up to the OP whether they choose to heed the advice, leave, or stay.