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-   General Yorkshire Terrier Discussion (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/)
-   -   Tail docking (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/195888-tail-docking.html)

mommadog1 02-06-2010 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2990718)
In regards to the videos that mommadog1 posted:

Banding where I live is actually illegal....I would think it would be everywhere, but apparently not? Is actually classified as abuse and is a punishable offense here.

The other two videos being shown are horrible, of course. The pups in the videos are MUCH older than they should be when having their tails docked. I don't think that you will get much opposition on this one. Tails are typically dog docked within the first few days for a reason--the procedure should have never been done on those pups in the video at that age.
I don't think banding is illegal here, but I could be wrong. I know my goat breeding friend said it is done with livestock, including goats. But I never knew they did that to dogs until recently.

I shared the 2 docking video's mainly because I was shocked, and it take a lot to shock me these days. What kind of fool would do it to a puppy that old is beyond my comprehension!

Oh and of course your right, this isn't the normal way that it is done. The sooner the better after birth.:thumbup:

Oh and I found another cream, sounds pretty good and is way cheaper then the last link I sent.. Amazon.com: LIDO 4% Lidocaine Cream 2oz/60g:...Amazon.com: LIDO 4% Lidocaine Cream 2oz/60g:...

mommadog1 02-06-2010 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencar98 (Post 2990724)
The number of countries that have banned docking is no where near a majority of this world. There are over 190 countries today, 35 on the list for banned and 23 on the list for no ban. A total of 58 countries reported, with over 130 not listed. So, I don't think the countries banning are a majority. Also, if you notice most all of the countries banning are the European countries.

I don't think it is a matter of Americans thinking they are smarter but hopefully we are independent thinkers that don't cave in to pressure from the AR groups, that have determined how the rest of us should treat our pets. Thankfully, I still live in a country where most of my freedoms are still intact, including the choice of whether to dock or not.
Never said it should be outlawed, but restrictions, YES! YOUR freedom of choice? Your making the choice for the dog not for yourself. So it's kind of a contradiction to say that.

I always respect the freedom of choice, for ones self. Only I can make my own choices, the animals get to have US humans make if for them...

Just for "argument" sake, do you think that if dogs had the choice to have their tails and toes cut off that they would really say, "oh yeah sure, go for it"?? If I were a dog I would tell whoever asked to go take a flying leap..lol:D

carmen in nj 02-06-2010 08:36 AM
This is what I use for tail docking and dew claws, is a topical anesthetic and Antiseptic, we also use it for microchiping, it works so far for us and it helps the babies with pain if any. My pups are docked and dewclawed at 3 or 4 days old. Like with any product caution is required when applying to the puppies.

Mercuroclear
Active Ingredients
Benzalkonium Chloride; Lidocaine HCl
Uses
First aid to help prevent skin infection and for the temporary relief of pain.

mommadog1 02-06-2010 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2990734)
It could be made less dangerous if people actual research and educate themselves on the breeding process in advance. If they make sure they are breeding females from lines of free whelpers and who have a pelvic structure suitable for breeding. Instead of just breeding and then trying to pick up on it as they do....coming to YT and not listening to advice or after the fact determined to find someone to just tell them what they want to hear.

Even in the best situation where everything is done 'by the book,' there are still going to be instances where there are complications along the way with the whelp. Just the way it is and would still happen if the 'breed standard was bigger.'
Oh yes, I completely agree!!

BamaFan121s 02-06-2010 08:38 AM
I never understand the "is it what the dog would want" argument. We make decisions for our dogs in basically every aspect of their life. This is just one more. I bet if left for our dogs to decide, they' opt against half the stuff we do for them. Wonder how many of our pets would agree with our choices to have them put down when WE feel like it's what's best for them...

mommadog1 02-06-2010 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencar98 (Post 2990724)
The number of countries that have banned docking is no where near a majority of this world. There are over 190 countries today, 35 on the list for banned and 23 on the list for no ban. A total of 58 countries reported, with over 130 not listed. So, I don't think the countries banning are a majority. Also, if you notice most all of the countries banning are the European countries.
sigh... I guess I have to spell it out..I meant civilized (and non 3rd world countries) because these people could care less about breed standards when they are trying to just make sure they have food for themselves. You think the people of Iraq give a crud about animals being docked or not?

I don't see what your meaning is when you say it's mostly European countries banning and restricting. Why does that matter?..shrug...

We have several states within this country working on bans and restrictions. Eventually those laws will be passed, some have already. Canada will probably outlaw or restrict it before we do, but once they do, US will follow.

mommadog1 02-06-2010 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2990788)
I never understand the "is it what the dog would want" argument. We make decisions for our dogs in basically every aspect of their life. This is just one more. I bet if left for our dogs to decide, they' opt against half the stuff we do for them. Wonder how many of our pets would agree with our choices to have them put down when WE feel like it's what's best for them...
LOL...ok I give up..it was just for argument sake..not to start one..:D

Britster 02-06-2010 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2990788)
I never understand the "is it what the dog would want" argument. We make decisions for our dogs in basically every aspect of their life. This is just one more. I bet if left for our dogs to decide, they' opt against half the stuff we do for them. Wonder how many of our pets would agree with our choices to have them put down when WE feel like it's what's best for them...

Well, of course not. Jackson would love to skip out on vet visits... but for example, when he came up limping, the vet gives him something, makes him better. Vaccines... he'd definitely opt to skip out. But it reduces the risk of getting diseases, infections, etc (yes, someone stated vaccines are not 100% effective, but they're pretty darn close). Jackson would also rather be off leash, I'm sure... but I'm reducing his risk of getting hit by a car to nearly zero percent by keeping him on a leash. All of these things have a purpose and a POINT to do to our animals.

But IMO, docking a tail is POINTLESS. Therefore, the issues are non-comparable. Most people that dock tails HAVE admitted in here that's it's purely to uphold a "standard" that HUMANS created. Yes, originally they were working dogs and docking the tail maybe had more of a purpose. But now, I just don't see a purpose whatsoever. The reasons given in this thread are not valid enough reasons for me to see chopping off a dogs tail. Having a docked tail does not improve any vital element of the dog including motor skills or health. So WHY do it? I dunno, I guess I just can't wrap my mind around it....

Kayceeh 02-06-2010 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2990788)
I never understand the "is it what the dog would want" argument. We make decisions for our dogs in basically every aspect of their life. This is just one more. I bet if left for our dogs to decide, they' opt against half the stuff we do for them. Wonder how many of our pets would agree with our choices to have them put down when WE feel like it's what's best for them...
Very true, we do make decisions for our pets but decision making comes with responsibility. Let's face it what we're talking about is "amputation" and "amputation" not for medical reasons but cosmetic enhancement. Having a dog put to sleep is to put it out of pain, so I think you're talking apples and oranges here. Having a tail docked is doing the pup no good whatsover. What it is doing, is meeting the needs of supply and demand. I do understand breeders feeling apprehensive when it has been the norm for so long, for these pups to look a certain way and a fear that they won't sell if they don't dock but that is what needs to change. If people didn't have the option of buying docked tail pups, they would then come to see the pups as norm with tails. I would not buy a pup with a docked tail any longer. A dogs tail is a big part of his communication to us and mostly to other dogs. To me that's rather like us having part of our tongue cut away at birth because it looks better but leaves us with a speech impedement, not just pointless but very distasteful.

BamaFan121s 02-06-2010 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2990878)
But IMO, docking a tail is POINTLESS.
So is that what makes it different? That it is "pointless." So is dressing your dog up in clothes. But I can see from your avatar pic that you are not opposed to that....but I guess that doesn't count, eh? It's "different."

BamaFan121s 02-06-2010 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayceeh (Post 2990882)
Very true, we do make decisions for our pets but decision making comes with responsibility. Let's face it what we're talking about is "amputation" and "amputation" not for medical reasons but cosmetic enhancement. Having a dog put to sleep is to put it out of pain, so I think you're talking apples and oranges here.
If you really don't think the two are comparable, then your line of thinking is clearly not one I can wrap my mind around, which strips your entire argument of its credibility, IMO.
You honestly think that "amputation", as your refer to it trumps ending the LIFE of your dog? I just don't get that. Because is to 'put it out of pain' based on what YOU consider is "too much." But yet, breeders can't use that same assessment of what is "too much" when docking. Double standard, if you ask me.

My point is, I don't get this particular argument at all...the whole "we shouldn't make this decision for them" side of the spectrum.
We make decision on vaccinations, what to feed them, how to groom them, when to spay/neuter them, when to have their teeth cleaned, dressing them up, when to breed them, how to train them, when to put them to sleep, but THIS--docking their tails--THIS is the one exception where the line should be drawn. :confused: Just don't get it...sorry.

jencar98 02-06-2010 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayceeh (Post 2990882)
I do understand breeders feeling apprehensive when it has been the norm for so long, for these pups to look a certain way and a fear that they won't sell if they don't dock but that is what needs to change. If people didn't have the option of buying docked tail pups, they would then come to see the pups as norm with tails. I would not buy a pup with a docked tail any longer. A dogs tail is a big part of his communication to us and mostly to other dogs. To me that's rather like us having part of our tongue cut away at birth because it looks better but leaves us with a speech impedement, not just pointless but very distasteful.
As others have posted before, for show breeders and a few others here, it's not really about selling puppies. So, I don't think they are apprehensive about not being able to sell puppies with full tails. That's fine if you choose to not buy another docked tail pup, it's great you have that choice.

Also, as has been posted before, our yorkies with properly docked tails are perfectly capable of communicating with their shortened tails, just as your yorkies do with full tails. I don't understand why this keeps being posted about the importance of a tail and communication, when properly docked yorkies still have a tail.

I do believe it is a cosmetic procedure as called for by the standards, and doesn't really harm the puppies if done correctly. We have a difference of opinions and preferences is what it comes down to. Nothing posted has proven to me, if done correctly docking tails is harmful to a puppy. And, your opinion will stay the same.....there's not much sense in continuing this discussion for me.....it becomes like Who is on 1st base :)

Kayceeh 02-06-2010 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2990914)
If you really don't think the two are comparable, then your line of thinking is clearly not one I can wrap my mind around, which strips your entire argument of its credibility, IMO.
Maybe you're correct, there is a comparisson after all. One is to END pain, the other CAUSES pain.

BamaFan121s 02-06-2010 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayceeh (Post 2990974)
Maybe you're correct, there is a comparisson after all. One is to END pain, the other CAUSES pain.
Exactly...pain that you are using YOUR judgment to determine...not the dogs'. So you feel that YOU should be able to assess the pain of a dog when contemplating euthanasia, but breeders should not be able to make their own assessments regarding any pain felt when docking tails. The "comparisons" are shocking...one supports your line of reasoning, one completely contradicts it.

Kayceeh 02-06-2010 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencar98 (Post 2990947)
As others have posted before, for show breeders and a few others here, it's not really about selling puppies. So, I don't think they are apprehensive about not being able to sell puppies with full tails. That's fine if you choose to not buy another docked tail pup, it's great you have that choice.

Also, as has been posted before, our yorkies with properly docked tails are perfectly capable of communicating with their shortened tails, just as your yorkies do with full tails. I don't understand why this keeps being posted about the importance of a tail and communication, when properly docked yorkies still have a tail.

I do believe it is a cosmetic procedure as called for by the standards, and doesn't really harm the puppies if done correctly. We have a difference of opinions and preferences is what it comes down to. Nothing posted has proven to me, if done correctly docking tails is harmful to a puppy. And, your opinion will stay the same.....there's not much sense in continuing this discussion for me.....it becomes like Who is on 1st base :)

Sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly as to it not being about selling and at the end of the day dollar signs. If breeders were told tommorow that Yorkies with tails are now selling for big bucks, bigger than Yorkies with docked tails, then I'd bet my bottom dollar that just about all would stop the practice. Supply and demand, like most other areas of life is the biggest issue IMO.

As for it being harmful to the puppy I agree it doesn't leave lasting damage if done correctly but obviously it hurts to have a part of your body amputated, so yes I would call that harmful and unnecessary suffering.


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