The Real difference between a show dog and a pet

[westieboy]

Great thread with very useful info. Thanks.

[QuickSilver]

I guess I don't understand why a good breeder MUST show? It would seem to me that you could be an unethical breeder who shows, or a hobby breeder with great lines and a good eye.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I guess I don't understand why a good breeder MUST show? It would seem to me that you could be an unethical breeder who shows, or a hobby breeder with great lines and a good eye.

I'm not sure a good breeder must show, but developing a good eye is no easy task, and we often look at our own dogs through rose-colored glasses. You can learn quite a bit through pictures, I've developed somewhat of an eye through viewing pictures at Yorkietalk, I know my personal preferences anyway, but to really develop an eye, I think you should see many dogs that are considered great examples of the breed, and see them in person, observing every angle and the way they move, and that Yorkie attitude! Showing tells you whether others share your opinion of the dog, and allows you to develop that eye.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I guess I don't understand why a good breeder MUST show? It would seem to me that you could be an unethical breeder who shows, or a hobby breeder with great lines and a good eye.

A good reputable breeder must show to have their dogs evaluated by a judge, in order to have their breeding program confirmed for excellence, IMO. Although, I do know some that show (don't breed) simply because they love the sport.

This is true: "It would seem to me that you could be an unethical breeder who shows, or a hobby breeder with great lines and a good eye." However, if you're an unethical breeder whether it be a show breeder or hobby (byb) breeder, means you're in it for the money to be made. That's not to say reputable exhibitor/breeders don't make money, but it's not normally their only source of income. And, most reputable breeders,I know even if they never made money would still do so, because of their love and devotion to the breed.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I guess I don't understand why a good breeder MUST show? It would seem to me that you could be an unethical breeder who shows, or a hobby breeder with great lines and a good eye.

You are partly right that a breeder who does show just may not be ethical. That's why you still have to check them out and discern for yourself what you are being told. Talk to a lot of different breeders, that will weed out the ones that you likely don't want to deal with.
You brought up a good point with your idea of a hobby breeder with great lines and good eye. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You have to show and be mentored by a long time show breeder to know what you are looking at and to know how to interpret the breed standard. I see many posts on this forum from people who have read the breed standard but obviously do not understand it. Also, a hobby breeder is not going to be getting those great lines from a reputable show breeder because they won'[t sell to them.
As I said before, watch out for those that don't show but somewhere back in the pedigree of their pups, there are some good kennel names.
Either of two things can have happnened. The show breeder trusted a nice show dog with someone they should not have. It was bred or used at stud, pups sold on open papers. Those pups very likely were pet quality not show quality. The person now breeding this pet quality although it comes from show lines, should not be used for breeding as it will not throw a show dog. Especially if the hobby breeder is breeding to whatever.
The other thing that can happen is the show breeder didn't care where they sold or studded to. The hobby breeder who does not show, doesn't know the lines they have, they are usually a mish mash of many dogs and kennel names, doesn't know what breeding to do or not do, doesn't know how to minimize faults and counter faults in a breeding program. They are usually just breeding to produce puppies and this is where people get misled.
Just because there are champions in the background that won't ensure a show dog, doesnt ensure even a nice pet if the breeder doesn't know how to breed to improve their line. If the hobby breeder is breeding pet quality with many faults to the breed standard, you get further and further away from what a Yorkie is supposed to look like. I have seen some of these pedigrees from hobby breeders selling champion lines. Most of the Champions are at least three or four generations back on the pedigree even two generations in a pedigree does not mean the breeder actually dealt with that show breeder. Most of the time they didn't. I have seen it so often where show breeders would not sell to that hobby breeder so that hobby breeder got ahold of champion lines via a round about way. Was getting the Champion line to improve their dogs or to get higher prices for their pups because they somehow think they must be better?
There just is no other way to learn how to breed to breed standard as best you can, without a good long time show breeder mentor. A show breeder mentor will not support someone just wanting to breed and sell. This is not just the case in Yorkies, it also applies to any purebred dog you want to talk about.
You can bet I get enquiries all the time from people wanting to buy my dogs to breed. You already know what my answer is but I tell them why.
You can also consider that a reputable show breeder has put a lot of time, effort, money, training, disappointments, heartbreaks into their dogs. We and me included, is not about to have someone who just wants to breed and sell puppies get ahold of my line with my champions in the pedigree along with the kennel names/champions of reputable show breeders that have trusted me with their lines.
It just will not happen.

[Lorraine]

I should also mention, show breeders consider themselves hobby breeders as dogs are our hobby not our means to make a living.
Frustrating hobby at times, but nonetheless, our hobby.

[QuickSilver]

I guess I am not completely sold on that idea, because it seems to me that someone could still go to shows and see what the dogs look like. It's also my understanding that the show world is quite political and it's important to know which judge you'll have etc.

A couple questions: how does one become a show judge? How does one officially become a YTCA breeder?

The logic on hobby breeders seems a little circular. Hobby breeders can't really have good dogs show breeders won't sell them to hobby breeders. Therefore, show breeders don't sell good dogs to hobby breeders, beause hobby breeders can't have them.

Also, how many people really show their dogs? It would seem to me that only a few hundred people a year would be able to buy a yorkie if it were just show breeders, who presumably produce what, eight puppies per year?

While I am not sure I agree, I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Thanks.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

I should also mention, show breeders consider themselves hobby breeders as dogs are our hobby not our means to make a living.
Frustrating hobby at times, but nonetheless, our hobby.

I'm glad you mention this; many people use the word "hobby" in connection with private or small breeders. To be a "hobby" something must give you pleasure and you enjoy spending your time honing your skills. A hobby is different than a part time job. One is very lucky if one can have a hobby that pays for itself, few people actually make money off their hobbies. Many breeders who call themselves hobby breeders think it sounds better than byb. Having just two breeding dogs does not make someone a hobby breeder.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I guess I am not completely sold on that idea, because it seems to me that someone could still go to shows and see what the dogs look like. It's also my understanding that the show world is quite political and it's important to know which judge you'll have etc.

A couple questions: how does one become a show judge? How does one officially become a YTCA breeder?

The logic on hobby breeders seems a little circular. Hobby breeders can't really have good dogs show breeders won't sell them to hobby breeders. Therefore, show breeders don't sell good dogs to hobby breeders, beause hobby breeders can't have them.

Also, how many people really show their dogs? It would seem to me that only a few hundred people a year would be able to buy a yorkie if it were just show breeders, who presumably produce what, eight puppies per year?

While I am not sure I agree, I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Thanks.

To be a show judge, you have to have been in the show world, you take seminars to learn about breed standards, other judges or breed clubs mentor upcoming show judges. You learn breed by breed, group by group. You write exams, you do ring stewarding, are involved in many aspects of the show world.
I am not sure why you think the logic is circular. A reputable show breeder won't sell to someone just breeding and selling pups because they would be putting their lines into the hands of someone just breeding to sell pups without any knowledge aobut the particulars of the breed and this type of breeding is not done to hopefully improve on the breed.
Anyone can get into showing their dogs. Breeding to fill a pet market is not a good reason to breed.
Check out all the Yorkies on rescue sites, on Kijiji where pups are being resold or on Craigslist being given away because the owner can't or won't keep it, rehoming because they can't housebreak it. The breeder didn't interview doesn't care where it was sold, won't take it back. A reputable show breeder will never sell in this manner. oh I know you can come back and say there are some hobby breeders that wouldn't, maybe there are but in my experience not very many.
Potential pet puppy buyers also get ticked with show breeders because of our interviewing process, and the big reason they get ticked with us is our contracts, and because you can get turned down because in our experience, you are not a good home for a pup at this time for one reason or another.
To be a YTCA member as of a few years ago, you have to be sponsored by two YTCA members that have known you for at least two years if I recall correctly.

[QuickSilver]

If we're going to go there, then I would like to say that I object to the word "quality", as in "show quality" versus "pet quality". This implies because one dog looks different from what someone has dictated as the standard, that they are not "as good" as a show dog. I think "show looks" versus "pet looks" is more accurate and sounds nicer.

The word "quality" sounds all weird to me now... kwah-lettee.

[QuickSilver]

Well, there is an OVERsupply in the pet market, which is a bad thing. I think it's great that breeders would screen potential owners, not just throw dogs at whomever crosses their path. I completely support "return" clauses and spay/neuter clauses. However, I think there can be a balance between considering dogs as disposable commodities and making them something the average family cannot attain.

[Lorraine]

I forgot the other part of your question. You can go to shows to see what the dogs look like but trust me, without knowledge of how to get dogs in your breeding program to look like a nice dog in the show ring, you can't do it by just observing. I know what a nice car looks like, but I am not about to go out and try and build one.
You have to have a long time show breeder mentor to help you with your breeding program.
Here I am 15 years showing and breeding Yorkies and I still ask for help from mentor friends in it for 30+ years now.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Well, there is an OVERsupply in the pet market, which is a bad thing. I think it's great that breeders would screen potential owners, not just throw dogs at whomever crosses their path. I completely support "return" clauses and spay/neuter clauses. However, I think there can be a balance between considering dogs as disposable commodities and making them something the average family cannot attain.

I have families that have dogs from me.I am not sure why you think they would be something the average family cannot attain. In this thread, Mardelin posted her info. Go back and read those posts.
As show breeders we don't charge what many seem to think we do compared to hobby breeders.
Trust me, owning a dog nowadays with the costs of Vet bills especially where some people live, the purchase price is going to be the least of your expenses. But we will not be willing to sell to just anyone that comes along and thinks they want a yorkie.

[julietimothy]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

You are partly right that a breeder who does show just may not be ethical. That's why you still have to check them out and discern for yourself what you are being told. Talk to a lot of different breeders, that will weed out the ones that you likely don't want to deal with.
You brought up a good point with your idea of a hobby breeder with great lines and good eye. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You have to show and be mentored by a long time show breeder to know what you are looking at and to know how to interpret the breed standard. I see many posts on this forum from people who have read the breed standard but obviously do not understand it. Also, a hobby breeder is not going to be getting those great lines from a reputable show breeder because they won'[t sell to them.
As I said before, watch out for those that don't show but somewhere back in the pedigree of their pups, there are some good kennel names.
Either of two things can have happnened. The show breeder trusted a nice show dog with someone they should not have. It was bred or used at stud, pups sold on open papers. Those pups very likely were pet quality not show quality. The person now breeding this pet quality although it comes from show lines, should not be used for breeding as it will not throw a show dog. Especially if the hobby breeder is breeding to whatever.
The other thing that can happen is the show breeder didn't care where they sold or studded to. The hobby breeder who does not show, doesn't know the lines they have, they are usually a mish mash of many dogs and kennel names, doesn't know what breeding to do or not do, doesn't know how to minimize faults and counter faults in a breeding program. They are usually just breeding to produce puppies and this is where people get misled.
Just because there are champions in the background that won't ensure a show dog, doesnt ensure even a nice pet if the breeder doesn't know how to breed to improve their line. If the hobby breeder is breeding pet quality with many faults to the breed standard, you get further and further away from what a Yorkie is supposed to look like. I have seen some of these pedigrees from hobby breeders selling champion lines. Most of the Champions are at least three or four generations back on the pedigree even two generations in a pedigree does not mean the breeder actually dealt with that show breeder. Most of the time they didn't. I have seen it so often where show breeders would not sell to that hobby breeder so that hobby breeder got ahold of champion lines via a round about way. Was getting the Champion line to improve their dogs or to get higher prices for their pups because they somehow think they must be better?
There just is no other way to learn how to breed to breed standard as best you can, without a good long time show breeder mentor. A show breeder mentor will not support someone just wanting to breed and sell. This is not just the case in Yorkies, it also applies to any purebred dog you want to talk about.
You can bet I get enquiries all the time from people wanting to buy my dogs to breed. You already know what my answer is but I tell them why.
You can also consider that a reputable show breeder has put a lot of time, effort, money, training, disappointments, heartbreaks into their dogs. We and me included, is not about to have someone who just wants to breed and sell puppies get ahold of my line with my champions in the pedigree along with the kennel names/champions of reputable show breeders that have trusted me with their lines.
It just will not happen.

Alot of this is true but not all. I have had show breeders help me out and I have some very nice bloodlines, that I was trusted with. I have dogs that could be shown but I chose at this time in my life not to show. They could be Champions for sure. But with small kids that is into ball and ect., I don't get into the show part of breeding at this time. I don't want to take away from time with my family. But just because I don't show my dogs don't mean I breed just anything. I was very picky about my dogs and wanted all in the AKC Standard and the best bloodlines I could get. Do I want to try to breed the size down, no that is not me. I raise Maltese and yorkies. Mostly Maltese and I have seen show maltese that has cotton looking hair and they some how is now Champions. Alot of the Show world is who is wanting to put the time and money into the show world. There is many pets out there that if the training, and gromming was done that could also be Champions. What I am trying to say is you don't have to be a show breeder to have show lines and AKC standard dogs, that could be shown if the time and money was put into them. One day when my kids are grown I would love then to get into showing, but now I am happy the way things are . (but I will say I have had a few that has bought puppies from me that has went to show breeders homes looked at their dogs and end up getting one from me. They said that my dogs & puppies look better that those show breeders that they show, and they did not like the way the show breeders housed their dogs. They also said the show breeders that they saw, that their dogs looked nothing like the pictures that they sent them. So can you have a good bloodline with in AKC standards with out being a show breeder, yes you can.

[mscat]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

You said -This Yorkie came from champ lines, and was being used to BREED. That was all she was good for at that home.

You are on topic and this is a very valid observation. This is exactly one of the things I am talking about that a breeder who advertises, champion lines with no champions of their own is only in it for the money. Unfortunately this poor little girl you saw is exactly the problem that can happen when a show breeder's kennel name dogs get away from them.
As I said before, some show breeders don't care where they sell too, they are not considered reputable either regardless of whether they show. Some got away from the show breeder because they were duped by someone and should not have trusted them. This is why it is so difficult for a newcomer to get into the breed. We have to make sure a newcomer is not going to turn around breed/sell anywhere for the soul purpose of making money.
So the question you want to ask when someone is selling a pup, champion lines, "Do you show your dogs at all and how many champions have you produced?" Often sellers, and that's about all they are, will advertise Champion lines without ever seeing a show ring because they will ask way more money but you still don't really know what your getting. If the parents are pet quality, the pup will be pet quality or getting away from even looking like a Yorkie. Showing such as I do, and breeding with many champions in my lines, I still will get pet quality pups. All show breeders do regardless of what breed you are talking about.
Again, when buying a puppy, the breeder should be asking a lot of questions and unless you convince them that you want to get into showing, it should not be sold on open papers.
I have seen many ads, where one price will get you limited registration, a much higher price will get you open papers to do as you wish. This is so unethical. Often the pup is very young, you have no idea what you are really getting. There is such an ad on this forum right now. I would advise anyone to keep looking don't go there.
A pup should also never be sold under 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 lbs regardless of age. They are too small if especially under 2 lbs to go to a new home, risk factors are way too high.
Remember, regardless of parents size that pup could very well be small due to a health issue.

thank you so much ! You are very informative and learned so much by reading your reponses.
I was stunned and then horrified when hearing about the tiny females background! IMO, it's cruel to breed such a little Yorkie, no matter what , champ lines, show dog , or what. I saw one for myself it was was heartbreaking. Whowever was breeding her, was wrong, the way this Yorkie is now towards people, she lacks no social skills,been bred, now retired. But, she spending her life as a breeder dog, AKC, tiny with no human interaction, is maddening