The Real difference between a show dog and a pet

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by julietimothy

Alot of this is true but not all. I have had show breeders help me out and I have some very nice bloodlines, that I was trusted with. I have dogs that could be shown but I chose at this time in my life not to show. They could be Champions for sure. But with small kids that is into ball and ect., I don't get into the show part of breeding at this time. I don't want to take away from time with my family. But just because I don't show my dogs don't mean I breed just anything. I was very picky about my dogs and wanted all in the AKC Standard and the best bloodlines I could get. Do I want to try to breed the size down, no that is not me. I raise Maltese and yorkies. Mostly Maltese and I have seen show maltese that has cotton looking hair and they some how is now Champions. Alot of the Show world is who is wanting to put the time and money into the show world. There is many pets out there that if the training, and gromming was done that could also be Champions. What I am trying to say is you don't have to be a show breeder to have show lines and AKC standard dogs, that could be shown if the time and money was put into them. One day when my kids are grown I would love then to get into showing, but now I am happy the way things are . (but I will say I have had a few that has bought puppies from me that has went to show breeders homes looked at their dogs and end up getting one from me. They said that my dogs & puppies look better that those show breeders that they show, and they did not like the way the show breeders housed their dogs. They also said the show breeders that they saw, that their dogs looked nothing like the pictures that they sent them. So can you have a good bloodline with in AKC standards with out being a show breeder, yes you can.

interesting because in my experience with all the show breeders I know and/or mentor me, no way would they do this and they sure made sure I wouldn't either. So I guess it goes back to there are show breeders and then there are show breeders.
Personally, i would never sell dogs to someone who doesn't want to get into showing nor stud their bitches.
I can't fathom a reputable show breeder entertaining the idea of putting their lines into the hands of someone who is not into the show world and has no intention of getting into the show world. None of the show breeders I know and respect ever would and they respect me that I won't. JMHO.
As I said before, there are show breeders who wouldsell to those who don't show, I know who they are and so do my mentors. We won't have anything to do with them.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

I have families that have dogs from me.I am not sure why you think they would be something the average family cannot attain. In this thread, Mardelin posted her info. Go back and read those posts.
As show breeders we don't charge what many seem to think we do compared to hobby breeders.
Trust me, owning a dog nowadays with the costs of Vet bills especially where some people live, the purchase price is going to be the least of your expenses. But we will not be willing to sell to just anyone that comes along and thinks they want a yorkie.

I meant that with the relatively few number of people who show, and the fewer number of dogs who win, there must not be many yorkies available that would meet your qualification for pets, I'm guessing a few hundred a year. I am saying that there is a very wide continuum between only show people selling dogs and having a massive, anonymous yorkie mills. I'm talking supply, not cost.

[QuickSilver]

I can also see the large benefits of having a mentor, but I have a hard time accepting that it's so crucial to have a judge give the nod on your dog. I mean, I watch dog shows. The judges are not doing anything particularly magical. I can appreciate the difficulty in breeding a standard yorkie, but I don't think it can be that hard to assess it once it's grown. Maybe you need someone objective to do the assessment (a "judge" if you will ), but not necessarily a show judge.

I can see why people would want to participate in shows and get bragging rights, good reputation, etc, but I don't think that necessarily means someone who doesn't is by definition a bad breeder.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I meant that with the relatively few number of people who show, and the fewer number of dogs who win, there must not be many yorkies available that would meet your qualification for pets, I'm guessing a few hundred a year. I am saying that there is a very wide continuum between only show people selling dogs and having a massive, anonymous yorkie mills. I'm talking supply, not cost.

Actually you got it a little backwards, there are not many puppies that meet my qualifications for the show rings and that is the case of most show breeders. What I decide is not what I want to keep for the show rings, are sold for pet, spay/neuter contracts or already spay/neutered if old enough.
They are very nice puppies or older puppies, just not what I want for the show rings. I also have had more males born the last two or three years, I don't want to keep any more males, I was hoping for a girl to pick from, didn't work that way.
Because many people don't quite understand how it works with show breeders, ie they think they are going to pay a very high price and they are all show dogs that will be sold, often they don't even come to a show breeder to ask for a puppy. Pity really, as they are missing out on the opportunity to get a very nice pup.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I meant that with the relatively few number of people who show, and the fewer number of dogs who win, there must not be many yorkies available that would meet your qualification for pets, I'm guessing a few hundred a year. I am saying that there is a very wide continuum between only show people selling dogs and having a massive, anonymous yorkie mills. I'm talking supply, not cost.

There are breeders and then there are breeders, by the same token there are judges and there are judges. Once you are into the showing end of it, you understand much better how it works and of course, your mentor helps you through it as well.
I prefer starting with the opinion of very good show breeders and/or my mentor before I even get near a show ring.
Yes some dog shows / judges are political, but what in life isn't?

[QuickSilver]

No, I get that even fewer dogs would be shown in the ring. Let me put this another way:

- How many dogs do you sell as pets per year?
- How many other yorkie showers out there do you consider worthy to sell yorkies as pets?

Multiply these two numbers, and that's the average number of yorkies you say should be sold per year in the country (or let's say US + Canada). I am guessing this is an extremely small number, much smaller than the number of responsible people who would like to buy a yorkie. Am I wrong?

[cj125]

Wow! I am so happy to see the long time, well respected breeders posting again!!! You have been missed!

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Well, there is an OVERsupply in the pet market, which is a bad thing. I think it's great that breeders would screen potential owners, not just throw dogs at whomever crosses their path. I completely support "return" clauses and spay/neuter clauses. However, I think there can be a balance between considering dogs as disposable commodities and making them something the average family cannot attain.

Could you please explain what you mean by this? Are you talking about price?

Because I consider my family to be of "average" income but I can tell you that I bought my boy from a well-known, long time breeder/exhibitor/judge (with over 125+ champions bred by her), and I paid a lot less for him than I did my girl.

[cj125]

Originally Posted by julietimothy

Alot of this is true but not all. I have had show breeders help me out and I have some very nice bloodlines, that I was trusted with. I have dogs that could be shown but I chose at this time in my life not to show. They could be Champions for sure. But with small kids that is into ball and ect., I don't get into the show part of breeding at this time. I don't want to take away from time with my family. But just because I don't show my dogs don't mean I breed just anything. I was very picky about my dogs and wanted all in the AKC Standard and the best bloodlines I could get. Do I want to try to breed the size down, no that is not me. I raise Maltese and yorkies. Mostly Maltese and I have seen show maltese that has cotton looking hair and they some how is now Champions. Alot of the Show world is who is wanting to put the time and money into the show world. There is many pets out there that if the training, and gromming was done that could also be Champions. What I am trying to say is you don't have to be a show breeder to have show lines and AKC standard dogs, that could be shown if the time and money was put into them. One day when my kids are grown I would love then to get into showing, but now I am happy the way things are . (but I will say I have had a few that has bought puppies from me that has went to show breeders homes looked at their dogs and end up getting one from me. They said that my dogs & puppies look better that those show breeders that they show, and they did not like the way the show breeders housed their dogs. They also said the show breeders that they saw, that their dogs looked nothing like the pictures that they sent them. So can you have a good bloodline with in AKC standards with out being a show breeder, yes you can.

I was just wondering what lines you have?

[QuickSilver]

No, I was asking about supply, not cost.

[cj125]

Oh, Thanks - I see that now.

[Bravo916]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

No, I get that even fewer dogs would be shown in the ring. Let me put this another way:

- How many dogs do you sell as pets per year?
- How many other yorkie showers out there do you consider worthy to sell yorkies as pets?

Multiply these two numbers, and that's the average number of Yorkies you say should be sold per year in the country (or let's say US + Canada). I am guessing this is an extremely small number, much smaller than the number of responsible people who would like to buy a Yorkie. Am I wrong?

You are correct, supply does not equal demand. In reality there is really no ethical and responsible way to meet that demand when you have a breed ranked #2 in the US that has an average litter size of 2 pups. IMHO it is the potential buyers responsibility to do full due diligence to make sure the puppy they are buying is the best bred dog possible.

Unfortunately we live in an instant gratification society where people purchase dogs over the internet like they are a pair of shoes or trading cards. This is why puppy mills are so successful--the can fill the demand that reputable breeders cannot and they offer the instant gratification of buying a puppy on Sunday night and picking it up from the airport on Monday.

[QuickSilver]

This is what I am saying about an average family not being able to attain a yorkie in the picture you present. I am saying that two extremes are presented as if they are the only options: either yorkies become incredibly rare, or they are produced in mass quantities.

It seems much more reasonble to me to think that there can be a balance between a realistic number of people who can show dogs and selling dogs like they are hand bags. What you are saying sounds nice, but not practical, and would it even be good for yorkies as a breed to only have a few hundred new pups per year, particularly if they are all coming from the same lines? If it's really about breeding to standard, then perhaps there should be more informal assessments for responsible, small breeders rather than requiring all breeders to hunt for that One Perfect Yorkie.

[Bravo916]

I also wanted to add that I know of several VERY reputable breeders who are having problems placing pups in pet homes with the economy downturn because people have the misconception that reputable breeders being out of their price range.

Like it has been said over and over again, for a reputable breeder it is not about the money--it is about making sure that the dogs they produce are loved, cherished and taken care of for the entirety of their lives.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

This is what I am saying about an average family not being able to attain a yorkie in the picture you present. I am saying that two extremes are presented as if they are the only options: either yorkies become incredibly rare, or they are produced in mass quantities.

It seems much more reasonble to me to think that there can be a balance between a realistic number of people who can show dogs and selling dogs like they are hand bags. What you are saying sounds nice, but not practical, and would it even be good for yorkies as a breed to only have a few hundred new pups per year, particularly if they are all coming from the same lines? If it's really about breeding to standard, then perhaps there should be more informal assessments for responsible, small breeders rather than requiring all breeders to hunt for that One Perfect Yorkie.

I don't know what the average family is, but I consider my family average, and we got Joey from a show breeder. It wasn't easy, I had to be very persistent calling her, and she wanted to know my views on many things before she agreed to meet me. I think the point some are trying to make is that the average family can get their dog from a reputable breeder, if they are patient. If I could not have found a good breeder to sell me a dog, rather than rewarding a poor breeder with my business, I would have chosen a dog from the shelter, as I have often done before.

Many good breeders accept waiting lists, and don't really want to breed, if there are no suitable homes, some are cutting back because of the recession, yet backyard breeders are coming out of the woodwork because of the recession and a desire to earn a little extra spending money. Who would have ever thought a recession would be bad for the breed?

[Woogie Man]

I guess I would fall in about the same place as Julietimothy. That is, I don't show but do have some dogs from some nice lines. There are no champions in the first couple of generations but their pedigrees are full of some very recognizable dogs beyond that. Also, there are many intersects in the pedigrees of my male and female that I believe are complementary to each other and have produced some very nice pups.

Lorraine, I do understand your reasoning. I feel very fortunate to have the dogs I have and I do feel a responsibility to properly placing these pups, even though I do not show. In the first litter I had, I placed the male with an experienced breeder that I consider responsible. She has some nice dogs and has aspirations to show but is not doing so at this time. The female I placed in a very loving pet home where she was spayed soon after placing. I feel that there are some of us that are trying to better the breed even though we don't show.

Just as an aside, i did look for a while for pups from champion dogs, not just dogs with champion backgrounds. I did get several replies with pictures and there's not a one of them I wanted. I had open pedigreed dogs that I liked better than these champions. I'm much happier having the dogs I did eventually get. As is the case with breeders and judges, there are champions and then there are champions.

I guess I should show a couple of pictures of the pups I've mentioned. I feel they have some very nice qualities and are definitely worth working with. The boy especially has some great features. The little girl is a beauty but was too small and didn't have quite the structure as the male. The girl is in the first two pics and the boy is in the last two.

It is very hard to acquire Yorkies with breeding rights. I wish I could get another male and female of the type I'm looking for so I might have a foundation to work from. Hopefully, something will be on the horizon for me soon. I think my best bet for showing would be to have a litter co-owned by me and an exhibitor. I really like the pups from my pair but I suck at getting a dog ready for the ring. I kept the last litter until they were 8 & 10 months old, mainly out of curiosity for how they would mature. I tried working with them but all I did was make little ninny-babies out of them. Do you know of any good books for getting a pup ready for the ring? I seem to spoil them and they lose some of the spunk I think they need to succeed.

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