the difference between a show dog and a pet

[Woogie Man]

Good post, Nancy. I'd say that, rather than being rude, you're offering some truthful balance to what is basically, as you say, propaganda (in these parts it might be called b.s. ). I think your post nails the issue right on the head.

[manolos mom]

Hey Jim, You just hit 1000 post....YEA......

[nanahas3]

Originally Posted by yorkie mad

Sorry to be ignorant but what exactly does "garbage dogs " mean?

The word garbage here = trash there hon. I don't know how anyone could call any living creature that but I think what the poster meant was it did not conform to standard enough to be a show dog so she paid for a show dog and got a pet only quality.

[nanahas3]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Many of you have pointed out my rudeness, and believe I could better change the breeder's mind if I had used more tact. While I hate to hurt someone's feelings, I hate unethical breeding practices even more. Let me just say, my post was never an attempt to change the breeders mind, as it is clearly made-up. As others have pointed out, she's a" featured breeder" on Yorkietalk, this means she pays Yorkietalk for advertising privileges to be listed on the Yorkietalk featured breeders page, it does not mean Yorkietalk endorses her. I'm sure she lists here, because it helps her sell lots of dogs, so I don't think anyone is going to be changing her mind. I am livid at her post, and that was the very most I could tone it down. I also was afraid to post anything because I don't want to get into trouble with Yorkietalk. However, her post is clearly implying the propaganda of "If you want a "tiny" yorkie, don't go to a show breeder, go to a tiny breeder specialist, as she knows how to safely breed tinies". Is she the only one; are all the others on the web telling the truth too, and the mother club who pays for all those scientific studies wrong? Why does the YTCA frown on breeding tinies, is because "they don't know how to safely do it?" I truly believe if it were safe, the mother club would endorse it. If you want a tiny yorkie, you should ONLY go to a show breeder or other ethical breeder, because they won't be breeding them; they know they are ONLY suitable as pets.

Again, I repeat I hate posting on these controversial threads, and opposing the breeding practices of certain breeders. I do believe that there is a safe and unsafe way to do certain things, not just different opinions, and when it comes to breeding and living creatures, we should always error on the side of safety. I also know so many people want tinies, and posts like hers is just want they want to hear. My love for Joey has extended to whole breed, and I really want to encourage people to only support those breeders who are doing the best for the breed.

Excellent post as usual Nancy. I totally agree.

[nlappegard]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

My opposition is not to tiny Yorkies but to those trying to breed for them. I have two (what I call) tinies myself and they are precious. I 'get' why people are attracted to them. My tinies are 3 and 3 1/2 pounds respectively and I worry about them constantly. To hear of Yorkies down to 1 1/2 pounds is hard for me to even imagine.

This thread isn't about the OP: it was started by the OP. I know I was one of the critical ones but to me the original post was not informative and not very sensible, to put it mildly.

I don't agree with breeding these very small dogs, whether there is a demand or not. It is not only very risky to the dam but what of the pups? To find truly qualified homes for these micro dogs is not easy. An occasional tiny (and I don't mean the micro-mini, itty-bitty ultra tinies) should be enough for a breeder to raise and find homes where these babies can thrive.

One thing that does strike me is this quote from the first post. "when you breed tiny males to bigger females yes you get some smaller dogs and bigger litters but are those small dogs
healthy no they are the runts of the litter the puppies that got the least amount of nutrition inside the mother ".
What's odd about this is that the OP does have some nice champions in her pedigrees. Now, with champions you have to assume that they are not tinies but are in the 4 to 7 pound range. So, how do you get these ultra tiny dogs from such pedigrees without breeding runt to runt? And there's the obvious point that a dog gets its size depending on its genetics and not how much nutrition it gets in the womb. I think most breeders here have seen the runt sometimes catch up with and even outgrow its littermates and sometimes see one of the bigger pups stop growing early and become the runt. It's genetics...not pre-natal nutrition.

LOL, I know I'm rambling now, but it bothers me to see someone come on and post such things. Obvious mis-information about breeding practices should, IMO, be challenged. Geez, what if people believe this stuff?

Breeders, IMO, should strive to breed for the standard. It was put there for a reason, not the least of which is the dog's best interest. If someone wants to profit from the purse puppy fad, that's their business. They can keep it their business by not staring threads justifying it.

P.S. If anyone thinks this thread is about just the differences between show and pet dogs, re-read the first sentence of the first post. "There is a big difference between a show dog and a tiny little pet." This thread is all about breeding for tinies, plain and simple.

As long as i have been on yorkie talk you people have attacked me with your rude nasty comments. So now i am going to tell you my exsperience with the wonderful show world IMO. I sent one of my Champion sired Champion Dam Males to be shown to a very reputable handler that was suppose to be the best of the best. She took him when he was 6months old and wanted to train him she used him as a filler in many shows to help her friends finish there dogs at my exspence. He had six points from her showing him and she told me she had to wait until his hair was a bit longer 3 months later he accidently bred her Champion female. This male was 4-lbs from My Brazil champion female and My canadian Champion male no one else in US had this pedigree. Then when i told her well we could work something out she said no gets her pedigree's i told her to ship my dog home immediately she refused and i had to call AKC to get him back. She then booked a flight on a day he would never fly because of the weather temperatures and said she will ship him back weather permitting. So I then had to rent a car for one of my friends that lived close to her to pick him up. He was bred to her 9-lb champion female I though standard to the breed was up to 7-lbs. Then when i rufused to approve the litter i recieved a letter from AKC stated she DNA tested the litter and I had to approve it because in her contract it didn't say she could use him and it didn't say she couldn't. I payed this lady 15000.00 dollars when i got him home the top of his left ear was cut off and you could easily AI with him but he didn't know how to breed at all this is the dog that accidently bred her female on his own IMO. Then i showed him myself a few times and i was told one time when i went if you pay me $75.00 dollars and i walk your dog around the ring he will win and get his points so IMO this is why i choose to stay away from these politic. I love what i have and i love what i do my dogs are beautiful I have some small ones i breed and some standard the dogs people have bought to show have done very well in the ring my one female recievd best of breed her first show in PA at 9months old and beat a 2yr old Champion in full coat. So you people can say and do what ever you like. As for the dogs from Show people they pick what they want to show from the litter and sell the rest so what are you getting there in a dog. So you can take this last reply from me and make what ever you want of it. It doesn't matter to me.

[chachi]

I dont agree with breeding tinies or breeding for tinies but the OP obviously has alot of experience doing it. It is remarkable she has only had 3 c-sections in 25 yrs. Although My quess is most people that breed tinies have more c sections than that because they arent as knowledgable about their lines.

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Many of you have pointed out my rudeness, and believe I could better change the breeder's mind if I had used more tact. While I hate to hurt someone's feelings, I hate unethical breeding practices even more. Let me just say, my post was never an attempt to change the breeders mind, as it is clearly made-up. As others have pointed out, she's a" featured breeder" on Yorkietalk, this means she pays Yorkietalk for advertising privileges to be listed on the Yorkietalk featured breeders page, it does not mean Yorkietalk endorses her. I'm sure she lists here, because it helps her sell lots of dogs, so I don't think anyone is going to be changing her mind. I am livid at her post, and that was the very most I could tone it down. I also was afraid to post anything because I don't want to get into trouble with Yorkietalk. However, her post is clearly implying the propaganda of "If you want a "tiny" yorkie, don't go to a show breeder, go to a tiny breeder specialist, as she knows how to safely breed tinies". Is she the only one; are all the others on the web telling the truth too, and the mother club who pays for all those scientific studies wrong? Why does the YTCA frown on breeding tinies, is because "they don't know how to safely do it?" I truly believe if it were safe, the mother club would endorse it. If you want a tiny yorkie, you should ONLY go to a show breeder or other ethical breeder, because they won't be breeding them; they know they are ONLY suitable as pets.

Again, I repeat I hate posting on these controversial threads, and opposing the breeding practices of certain breeders. I do believe that there is a safe and unsafe way to do certain things, not just different opinions, and when it comes to breeding and living creatures, we should always error on the side of safety. I also know so many people want tinies, and posts like hers is just want they want to hear. My love for Joey has extended to whole breed, and I really want to encourage people to only support those breeders who are doing the best for the breed.

First I would like to begin with...
Nancy, I for one did not just see one post of attacking the person.. but have seen many over time.. so please do not think when I posted, it was just meant for you or anyone posting..Your comment ( many have pointed out my rudeness ) I meant in general and over time..and I must have missed a poster pointing directly at you.. I must go back and reread your posts again...
With that said..I am sure YTCA and many breeders felt this same way when breeding down to yorkies even being the size of 4-7 pounds as standard..again not that I agree and I do not have tinies to breed, nor will I.. but what I am saying is there are many breeding issues and controveries over years, time and gee not very long ago about biewers.. are they are they not.. what are they, will they be there own breed...etc etc.. again not in defence of anyone, nor wanting to add to drama... as it is now who is to say it will never change to even smaller..we might never see the day ourselves.. again the original dogs bred to produce the yorkie were so so much larger.. and I am sure back then while taking years to produce what is now the standard.. there had to be breeders or people as yourself that so disagreed and said many things on the negative part..
So the drama will continue over years for as you said..Why does the YTCA frown on breeding tinies, is because "they don't know how to safely do it?" . but again some one stood their ground and fought for what we now have and the small size we really do breed...
I did not read this OP`s part as it being better then buying from a show breeder or a breeder that breeds for the proper size..
As for your comment about her !!! she's a" featured breeder" on Yorkietalk, this means she pays Yorkietalk for advertising privileges to be listed on the Yorkietalk featured breeders page, it does not mean Yorkietalk endorses her. was to me a good dig.
I also might add that if it were not for people not saying from this forum, but in general, wanting these small yorkies.. the supply and demand would not be there.. for there are many show breeders that no matter what will end with a tiny sometimes in every litter they produce and yet get their shows dog size also.. they get sold..again by any of us breeders.. people want tinies.. and until we change the worlds thinking.. we are going to have a breeder to prouduce what people seem to want..
Yet for all the people that buy that know a baby is going to be teenie.. and can have many problems.. they still want.. is this one breeders fault or anyone that sells a tiny to begin with I ask..and yes please I would love to see comments.. I am not being harsh here nor sarcastic.. so would love to see if anyone out there can wonder as I myself do at times..
I have seen show breeders ask as much for a tiny they held back for breeding and did not make the size, ask plenty also.. as a pet.. much more then one that is of the standard but not breeding quality..
anne

[yorkie mad]

Originally Posted by nanahas3

The word garbage here = trash there hon. I don't know how anyone could call any living creature that but I think what the poster meant was it did not conform to standard enough to be a show dog so she paid for a show dog and got a pet only quality.

Thanks for clearing that up for me lol.
I'm keeping out of this one as I don't know any useful info but I do love to read all posts lol

[Woogie Man]

Hey, Lissette.....I noticed that myself after I did it. It took me over a year but I made it! I gotta tell ya...it feels good! Seems like only yesterday that I was a newbie. My, how time flies.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Many of you have pointed out my rudeness, and believe I could better change the breeder's mind if I had used more tact. While I hate to hurt someone's feelings, I hate unethical breeding practices even more. Let me just say, my post was never an attempt to change the breeders mind, as it is clearly made-up. As others have pointed out, she's a" featured breeder" on Yorkietalk, this means she pays Yorkietalk for advertising privileges to be listed on the Yorkietalk featured breeders page, it does not mean Yorkietalk endorses her. I'm sure she lists here, because it helps her sell lots of dogs, so I don't think anyone is going to be changing her mind. I am livid at her post, and that was the very most I could tone it down. I also was afraid to post anything because I don't want to get into trouble with Yorkietalk. However, her post is clearly implying the propaganda of "If you want a "tiny" yorkie, don't go to a show breeder, go to a tiny breeder specialist, as she knows how to safely breed tinies". Is she the only one; are all the others on the web telling the truth too, and the mother club who pays for all those scientific studies wrong? Why does the YTCA frown on breeding tinies, is because "they don't know how to safely do it?" I truly believe if it were safe, the mother club would endorse it. If you want a tiny yorkie, you should ONLY go to a show breeder or other ethical breeder, because they won't be breeding them; they know they are ONLY suitable as pets.

Again, I repeat I hate posting on these controversial threads, and opposing the breeding practices of certain breeders. I do believe that there is a safe and unsafe way to do certain things, not just different opinions, and when it comes to breeding and living creatures, we should always error on the side of safety. I also know so many people want tinies, and posts like hers is just want they want to hear. My love for Joey has extended to whole breed, and I really want to encourage people to only support those breeders who are doing the best for the breed.

Great post!

[yorkie mad]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Hey, Lissette.....I noticed that myself after I did it. It took me over a year but I made it! I gotta tell ya...it feels good! Seems like only yesterday that I was a newbie. My, how time flies.

congrats woogie man I was excited at hitting my 500 lol

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by yorkie mad

congrats woogie man I was excited at hitting my 500 lol

Thanks..it is a milestone. It's kind of like watching the odometer on your car. I've gotten excited in the past when I got one to 100,000 miles. The truck I have now is 16 years old and only has 80,000 miles on it. At the rate I drive, it'll be another 4 or 5 years before it hits 100,000. Wonder what my post count will be by then?

[yorkie mad]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Thanks..it is a milestone. It's kind of like watching the odometer on your car. I've gotten excited in the past when I got one to 100,000 miles. The truck I have now is 16 years old and only has 80,000 miles on it. At the rate I drive, it'll be another 4 or 5 years before it hits 100,000. Wonder what my post count will be by then?

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Many of you have pointed out my rudeness, and believe I could better change the breeder's mind if I had used more tact. While I hate to hurt someone's feelings, I hate unethical breeding practices even more. Let me just say, my post was never an attempt to change the breeders mind, as it is clearly made-up. As others have pointed out, she's a" featured breeder" on Yorkietalk, this means she pays Yorkietalk for advertising privileges to be listed on the Yorkietalk featured breeders page, it does not mean Yorkietalk endorses her. I'm sure she lists here, because it helps her sell lots of dogs, so I don't think anyone is going to be changing her mind. I am livid at her post, and that was the very most I could tone it down. I also was afraid to post anything because I don't want to get into trouble with Yorkietalk. However, her post is clearly implying the propaganda of "If you want a "tiny" yorkie, don't go to a show breeder, go to a tiny breeder specialist, as she knows how to safely breed tinies". Is she the only one; are all the others on the web telling the truth too, and the mother club who pays for all those scientific studies wrong? Why does the YTCA frown on breeding tinies, is because "they don't know how to safely do it?" I truly believe if it were safe, the mother club would endorse it. If you want a tiny yorkie, you should ONLY go to a show breeder or other ethical breeder, because they won't be breeding them; they know they are ONLY suitable as pets.

Again, I repeat I hate posting on these controversial threads, and opposing the breeding practices of certain breeders. I do believe that there is a safe and unsafe way to do certain things, not just different opinions, and when it comes to breeding and living creatures, we should always error on the side of safety. I also know so many people want tinies, and posts like hers is just want they want to hear. My love for Joey has extended to whole breed, and I really want to encourage people to only support those breeders who are doing the best for the breed.

Nancy -- I appreciate your candidness and your intelligently-worded posts. You have stuck to the issues and not attacked the individual. What people fail to see is there is a difference! When you disagree vehmently with someones actions, it is your responsibility to speak out against those actions. It is not attacking the person. It can all be done without personal animosity and name-calling, just as you have here.

I also think if people want to be taken seriously they need to work on wording their posts so people can read them easily. Punctuation, paragraphs, and short, succinct posts can go a long way in making a point. Long rambling, non-punctuated, posts show a lack of attention to detail and quality that might be more telling than you think. Don't get me wrong, I have as many typos as anyone, so I am not talking about being perfect. It is hard for me to take an uneducated-sounding post very seriously. I view many of the posts here as a learning source. If a reference is to have any credence, it needs to be intelligently put together.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by nlappegard

As long as i have been on yorkie talk you people have attacked me with your rude nasty comments. So now i am going to tell you my exsperience with the wonderful show world IMO. I sent one of my Champion sired Champion Dam Males to be shown to a very reputable handler that was suppose to be the best of the best. She took him when he was 6months old and wanted to train him she used him as a filler in many shows to help her friends finish there dogs at my exspence. He had six points from her showing him and she told me she had to wait until his hair was a bit longer 3 months later he accidently bred her Champion female. This male was 4-lbs from My Brazil champion female and My canadian Champion male no one else in US had this pedigree. Then when i told her well we could work something out she said no gets her pedigree's i told her to ship my dog home immediately she refused and i had to call AKC to get him back. She then booked a flight on a day he would never fly because of the weather temperatures and said she will ship him back weather permitting. So I then had to rent a car for one of my friends that lived close to her to pick him up. He was bred to her 9-lb champion female I though standard to the breed was up to 7-lbs. Then when i rufused to approve the litter i recieved a letter from AKC stated she DNA tested the litter and I had to approve it because in her contract it didn't say she could use him and it didn't say she couldn't. I payed this lady 15000.00 dollars when i got him home the top of his left ear was cut off and you could easily AI with him but he didn't know how to breed at all this is the dog that accidently bred her female on his own IMO. Then i showed him myself a few times and i was told one time when i went if you pay me $75.00 dollars and i walk your dog around the ring he will win and get his points so IMO this is why i choose to stay away from these politic. I love what i have and i love what i do my dogs are beautiful I have some small ones i breed and some standard the dogs people have bought to show have done very well in the ring my one female recievd best of breed her first show in PA at 9months old and beat a 2yr old Champion in full coat. So you people can say and do what ever you like. As for the dogs from Show people they pick what they want to show from the litter and sell the rest so what are you getting there in a dog. So you can take this last reply from me and make what ever you want of it. It doesn't matter to me.

Not sure why you directed this post at me since I've said I don't think this thread has anything to do with showing. I guess it's because you think I'm one of 'those people' but I honestly didn't know of you until your re-homing thread. It was there that I saw just how small of dogs you were actually breeding. I've always been opposed to breeding for tinies. In my mind, breeding for tinies was like putting a 3 pound boy with 4 pound girl. You take it to a level (less than 2 pound males breeding with 3 pound girls) that is, frankly, shocking to me.

Call it what you will, I don't think being opposed to such breeding practices is bashing. Despite my feelings, I've kept a civil tone and tried to point out some obvious contradictions in your thoughts on breeding. There are more that I've seen but not mentioned. Also, please remember that you started this thread. How could you not expect comments?

If you've read my other comments, you know that I'm opposed not only because of the obvious risks to the small Moms, but also out of concern for the very tiny pups. The health and safety risks to them are high and honestly, do you really think that they have all gone to homes that can truly care for them properly?

I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences in the show world. I don't show but do hope to get in the ring soon, most likely by one of my litters being co-owned by the stud's owner, who does actively show. However, as I said earlier, I think your OP is less about showing and more about your breeding for timies.

The trend of wanting ever smaller and smaller dogs and people willing to supply them is, to me, dangerous. I really believe that many of those who want these ultra tinies have not done their research and have no real idea of what they're getting into. I'm a very experienced Yorkie owner and I would be scared at the thought of owning 1 1/2 to 2 pound Yorkies. That's just too small!

I don't expect to change your mind about breeding for ultra-tinies but don't expect my opinions to change, either. If you don't want to hear them, then simply don't start threads like this one. IMO, this type of breeding not only is not bettering the breed, it is dangerous to the dams and pups involved.