Article about BYB! Must read!

[Karrie]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

The author is a shelter worker~she is speaking from her heart and with passion. It is not offensive IMO it is heartfelt. She is pouring her heart out because of what she has seen in shelters due to people irresponsible behavior. I am sorry but if you feel the author was long winded, IMO it seemed to be out of frustration and more of a vent and rant.

I have to ask? Do you volunteer for a shelter, rescue or with animals in need? When was the last time you visited a shelter to see or help with all of the dogs, cats and other animals housed there? Have you ever picked up a dog that was so sick you didn't know if he would make it through the night? Do you own a rescue or volunteer to be a foster home? What action or responsibility are you personally taking to make a difference in the treatment of animals?

I posted the original letter to try to enlighten YT member of how a shelter worker feels. Even if just one person now understand the magnitude of breeding their PET my point has been made. If it has offended you then so be it there is nothing more that can be said to change your opinion.

My opinion IS about the article and how the situation was approached by the author. Lets not get personal!! Don't think for a second, that I have a less-than-compassionate disposition about neglected animals. I said nothing of the sort.

Her message about all BYBers was inappropiate.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Karrie

If the author wants to promote responsible breeding - then she could have done so in 5 lines or less as she did in her closing statements. Instead she raised the issue of euthanized dogs in our society and then blamed it on BYBers. She made generalized and harmful statements against a diverse group of people.

That is why the article is so offensive.

I honestly do not think one can sum up what the author was trying to impart into 5 lines or less.
I also do not see where she made any harmful statements. She made some very good points.
Her article is focusing on the part that backyard breeders play in the problem. I don't see her saying that they are the only problem.
Bottom line: there are far more people breeding dogs in this world than need be.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Karrie

My opinion IS about the article and how the situation was approached by the author. Lets not get personal!! Don't think for a second, that I have a less-than-compassionate disposition about neglected animals. I said nothing of the sort.

Her message about all BYBers was inappropiate.

I think leaving out the fact that millions of dogs are dying each year, would be negligent. This is the reason; many of us are upset about the abundance of breeding. I know I would not be near as passionate about the cause, if I thought every puppy born was going to a good home. Then I would only be concerned about the fact that poor breeding results in sickly dogs, that cause much pain and suffering to them, as well as their owners. I'm confused why anyone would feel the need to defend backyard breeders? Just because you are not a show breeder, it doesn't mean you are a backyard breeder. If a person feels that the description of backyard breeder fits them too closely, perhaps they need to take a look at their breeding program. I believe that unless you are truly trying to improve the breed, you should not be breeding, we already have an abundance of dogs.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I think leaving out the fact that millions of dogs are dying each year, would be negligent. This is the reason; many of us are upset about the abundance of breeding. I know I would not be near as passionate about the cause, if I thought every puppy born was going to a good home. Then I would only be concerned about the fact that poor breeding results in sickly dogs, that cause much pain and suffering to them, as well as their owners. I'm confused why anyone would feel the need to defend backyard breeders? Just because you are not a show breeder, it doesn't mean you are a backyard breeder. If a person feels that the description of backyard breeder fits them too closely, perhaps they need to take a look at their breeding program. I believe that unless you are truly trying to improve the breed, you should not be breeding, we already have an abundance of dogs.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

The"pet of the day" you mention, is usually a dog that will be hard to place, not one that will be easy to place. You can place any dog, if it's given enough publicity, and people will stand in line for this. Remember that local shelters do have outlets for many purebred dogs, because many go to breed specific rescues, and these rescues are notified immediately after the dog have gone through the waiting period where the owner is trying to be located. I think articles such as this are important because they inform us that millions of dogs are needlessly dying, and while puppymills/petstores are a problem they are not indeed the biggest problem. Backyard breeders produce way more dogs than puppy mills, and I don't think most people realize this.

For me, the biggest problem is unneutered pets, who are allowed to roam freely. We had a thread on legislation California was attempting to pass, and pets that were picked up three times would be required to be neutered. Most YT members were against this, and I was shocked by that fact, I believe responsible breeders don't allow their pets to "roam freely."

I think the biggest point you are overlooking, is that many new time Yorkie owners ponder the thought of breeding. Most people have no idea what breeding entails.

Nancy, I don't think you can say what is true about shelters in my area. As ladyjane pointed out after my post, her area's shelters are full of pure bred dogs while in my area this just isn't the case so there are regional differences. I know there are breed specific rescues and I mentioned them. They are not, as best as I can tell, counted in with 'shelter dogs'. I do visit my local shelter regularly with donations and the pure breds just aren't there. When I do hear of pure breds being in a shelter, it's the result of a puppy mill bust. It is the mills that are heaping cruelties on dogs on a huge scale. You and the article's author state that BYBs are the bigger problem but, since it's hard to even get a good total count of shelter dogs, I don't see how anyone can comfortably say who is the bigger problem. Again, in my area, the shelter is full of mixed breeds which would indicate it's the irresponsible owner rather than mills or BYBs causing the shelter problem, at least here. I do agree with you about unneutered pets and made a point about them in my post. I really don't think I'm overlooking any big points. The article was not breed specific so why should I extrapolate it over to the Yorkie? I'm sure everyone here is a true animal lover so no one really disagrees about animal welfare but only offers different points of view. Shelter and rescue workers/volunteers are saints IMO and deserve all our thanks. I have rescued dogs and cats from abusive/neglectful owners so I know just what it can be like to see the inhumanity of what some people can do. Given all that, I still feel the same about the article as I posted earlier. One thing I would like to add is that we need a national database to compile accurate figures on just what is coming into shelters. There's no way to solve any problem if you can't get a handle on it. As it is now, anyone can say anything about what is the biggest problem and have just as good a chance of being wrong as of being right. With so much legislation being drawn up on this issue, it is critical to at least have good accurate information on what the problem really is. I hope you will see that, while I don't accept the article at face value, I certainly don't promote irresponsible pet ownership and/or breeding. As for people here on YorkieTalk contemplating breeding, I would say that breeding any dog without doing your research is irresponsible and, in the case of toy breeds, is downright dangerous.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Nancy, I don't think you can say what is true about shelters in my area. As ladyjane pointed out after my post, her area's shelters are full of pure bred dogs while in my area this just isn't the case so there are regional differences. I know there are breed specific rescues and I mentioned them. They are not, as best as I can tell, counted in with 'shelter dogs'. I do visit my local shelter regularly with donations and the pure breds just aren't there. When I do hear of pure breds being in a shelter, it's the result of a puppy mill bust. It is the mills that are heaping cruelties on dogs on a huge scale. You and the article's author state that BYBs are the bigger problem but, since it's hard to even get a good total count of shelter dogs, I don't see how anyone can comfortably say who is the bigger problem. Again, in my area, the shelter is full of mixed breeds which would indicate it's the irresponsible owner rather than mills or BYBs causing the shelter problem, at least here. I do agree with you about unneutered pets and made a point about them in my post. I really don't think I'm overlooking any big points. The article was not breed specific so why should I extrapolate it over to the Yorkie? I'm sure everyone here is a true animal lover so no one really disagrees about animal welfare but only offers different points of view. Shelter and rescue workers/volunteers are saints IMO and deserve all our thanks. I have rescued dogs and cats from abusive/neglectful owners so I know just what it can be like to see the inhumanity of what some people can do. Given all that, I still feel the same about the article as I posted earlier. One thing I would like to add is that we need a national database to compile accurate figures on just what is coming into shelters. There's no way to solve any problem if you can't get a handle on it. As it is now, anyone can say anything about what is the biggest problem and have just as good a chance of being wrong as of being right. With so much legislation being drawn up on this issue, it is critical to at least have good accurate information on what the problem really is. I hope you will see that, while I don't accept the article at face value, I certainly don't promote irresponsible pet ownership and/or breeding. As for people here on YorkieTalk contemplating breeding, I would say that breeding any dog without doing your research is irresponsible and, in the case of toy breeds, is downright dangerous.

Didn't mean to imply I knew what was going on shelters in all or even most locations. I had read an article about the "pet of the week" feature and it said how they selected the dogs to feature. I have read figures, on dogs produced by puppy millers vs. dogs produced by other breeders, and as I recall puppy millers were a drop in the bucket, compared to byb, and I was surprised by this. Don't have the figures now, and maybe someone can find the source, but I do believe that HSUS has mentioned this before, and also have stated that they never received a dog from a good breeder. This was on the Oprah show. Here's a link to HSUS estimates of dogs entering shelters, with the number of purebreds being 25%. HSUS Pet Overpopulation Estimates | The Humane Society of the United States

[Woogie Man]

I checked the link you posted and it says estimates are 6-8 million cats and dogs enter shelters every year with 3-4 million being euthanized. This is a lower number than the article the OP posted indicates and also lower than the estimates I've seen. In all cases, though, these are estimates and no one seems to have a really accurate number. No matter whose numbers you use, it's way too many but the range of estimates does underscore the need for a database. Also, in any estimate, cats outnumber dogs and the link you posted lumps them together to get the number they use. The estimate of 25% being pure bred is about dogs but every other number is about dogs and cats. I'm wondering if these estimates are about shelters only or if they include rescues. I know neither one of us is trying to be argumentative and we would all like to see something done about this. I'd just like to see a more accurate compilation of data before legislative solutions are offered since that seems to be the direction being taken lately. Pet over-population wouldn't be such a problem if people had more of a sense of responsibility but that seems to be sorely lacking in society these days. It's really a shame.

[ladyjane]

These two links seem to support what Nancy is saying about the numbers. They both indicate that the larger number of pure bred dogs come from backyard breeders.

Puppy Mills and Backyard Breeders vs Responsible Breeders - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Backyard Breeders & Puppy Mills : Tovik Siberians

The one mentions that the AKC stated that years ago, but I cannot find those stats. Will keep looking.
Actually, it makes sense to me. We all see puppy mills as being a problem because of the overwhelming amount at each facility. We do not see those amounts in individual homes, but the numbers of individuals breeding probably are astronomical.

[hartygirl]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

These two links seem to support what Nancy is saying about the numbers. They both indicate that the larger number of pure bred dogs come from backyard breeders.

Puppy Mills and Backyard Breeders vs Responsible Breeders - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Backyard Breeders & Puppy Mills : Tovik Siberians

The one mentions that the AKC stated that years ago, but I cannot find those stats. Will keep looking.
Actually, it makes sense to me. We all see puppy mills as being a problem because of the overwhelming amount at each facility. We do not see those amounts in individual homes, but the numbers of individuals breeding probably are astronomical.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I checked the link you posted and it says estimates are 6-8 million cats and dogs enter shelters every year with 3-4 million being euthanized. This is a lower number than the article the OP posted indicates and also lower than the estimates I've seen. In all cases, though, these are estimates and no one seems to have a really accurate number. No matter whose numbers you use, it's way too many but the range of estimates does underscore the need for a database. Also, in any estimate, cats outnumber dogs and the link you posted lumps them together to get the number they use. The estimate of 25% being pure bred is about dogs but every other number is about dogs and cats. I'm wondering if these estimates are about shelters only or if they include rescues. I know neither one of us is trying to be argumentative and we would all like to see something done about this. I'd just like to see a more accurate compilation of data before legislative solutions are offered since that seems to be the direction being taken lately. Pet over-population wouldn't be such a problem if people had more of a sense of responsibility but that seems to be sorely lacking in society these days. It's really a shame.

You will never get the full numbers as only government owned/tax payer based animal protection organizations are required to report their euthanization numbers. This does not include rescue organizations etc. I believe the last study was done in 1999 (I could be wrong on the date) but it was only a guesstimate at over 5 million animals and was growing and that 25% were purebreds.

If you want more accurate compilation of data then you have to be ready to pay hugh amounts of $$$ or pass laws to incorporate all organizations to get to these numbers...it will never happen. Animals are just property and frankly few people really give a darn.

Pet over-population starts with the breeders/owners as they are the ones putting together a male and a female dog or not fixing their dogs. End of story. It also starts with "volume breeders" which AKC endorses some of them.

[hartygirl]

I would LOVE to only be able to buy my yorkie from a LISCENCED breeder, that has to account for EVERY aspect of breeding since they are taking (not making) money for a service.

A business has to be held accountable, payroll taxes, licences, benefits, and what not, why not a breeder!? This is not a product that is being debated, this is a live animal. How in the world can laws protecting LIFE not be celebrated by breeders everywhere?

If it becomes hard for me to buy a yorkie someday because laws got tough on people I will be thrilled! It is too easy to just pick up the local paper and buy a pure breed dog at the drop of a hat. I am so sorry to all the "hobby breeders" out there that don't classify themselves as BYB's. I hope you can find a new hobby. If you don't breed your dogs to standard than you don't even come close to understanding those who do and should not be placed in the same category.

If rescues and animal shelters become extinct in my life time it would be just about the most amazing thing that could ever happen. If it takes legislation getting tough on EVERYONE then so be it! If you don't have the resources and time to jump throughout the hoops that future breeders will have to than stop breeding!

[Woogie Man]

The links you posted don't speak to the number of dogs entering shelters and/or being euthanized. The HSUS link that Nancy posted shows that 25% of dogs in shelters are pure bred. This means that 75% of dogs in shelters are not pure bred. I know that in my local shelter the kill rate is about 40+% for dogs and much higher for cats. If that is a typical ratio, you could take that to mean that, if the number of shelter dogs could be halved, then you are left with not an ideal situation but at least a manageable problem. So, if only 25% of dogs in shelters are pure bred, how can they be the biggest source of the problem whether they come from mills, BYBs or even reputable breeders? It seems to me that the numbers point to mixed breeds being the biggest problem and that goes directly back to irresponsible pet owners, not breeders of any stripe. Again, I'm not being argumentative, only trying to make some sense of these statistics. Bringing up puppy mills and BYBs is fine when talking about breeder ethics, but the numbers suggest they are much less of a problem in terms of pet over-population than careless and irresponsible pet owners are.

[yorkiepuppie]

excuse me, but i don't see the point in having to prove the numbers blah blah blah... i don't care about the exact number of unwanted dogs that is contributed by BYBers. even contributing just one more dog and selling it to irresponsible owners like themselves is one too many.

i was going to do some research to find out how big of a problem BYBers are, but decided that that's not even really the point. i think it's self-evident that BYBers are contributing to the problem.

for the people that are arguing against BYBers being part of the problem, where are you coming from. what is your logic?

puppy mills have received a lot of bad press, but there are a lot of backyard breeders that run similarly to puppy mills. i mean, don't they both have the same goal? produce dogs for money. and no education on what they are doing but just carelessly breeding?

i do not understand why people are arguing for BYBers? please point out your logic. because you are not making any sense.

earlier in my other post i pointed out that if you are worried that it will become exclusive and only selected few will be able to breed, then do all that is necessary to breed, then you will not be called a byber.

plus, with the kind of over populating problems we DO have with pets, you know what, yea, probably only selected few should be breeding. it might just be a great idea that it IS more discrimitory on who should be breeding dogs.

[Karrie]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The links you posted don't speak to the number of dogs entering shelters and/or being euthanized. The HSUS link that Nancy posted shows that 25% of dogs in shelters are pure bred. This means that 75% of dogs in shelters are not pure bred. I know that in my local shelter the kill rate is about 40+% for dogs and much higher for cats. If that is a typical ratio, you could take that to mean that, if the number of shelter dogs could be halved, then you are left with not an ideal situation but at least a manageable problem. So, if only 25% of dogs in shelters are pure bred, how can they be the biggest source of the problem whether they come from mills, BYBs or even reputable breeders? It seems to me that the numbers point to mixed breeds being the biggest problem and that goes directly back to irresponsible pet owners, not breeders of any stripe. Again, I'm not being argumentative, only trying to make some sense of these statistics. Bringing up puppy mills and BYBs is fine when talking about breeder ethics, but the numbers suggest they are much less of a problem in terms of pet over-population than careless and irresponsible pet owners are.

Well said, WoogieMan.

I realize this is a very sensitive issue - and that is why I don't respond to these types of posts. For the record, I don't disagree with the author's overall goal in bringing awareness to the issue that average people ought not breed their pets. In fact, I have discouraged several of my friends from doing just that (friends who have wanted to recover their purchase costs). I just disagree with how the author made her point.

As Woogie Man said, I don't mean to be agrumentative - I believe we are all on the same page when it comes to animal suffering.

[yorkiepuppie]

once upon a time, barbers can be doctors, because there are no laws to say that they couldn't. no laws to say that you must have gone through the education and training before you can perform surgeries.

so since barbers have sharp knives and scissors, they also performed surgeries on people.

once upon a time, anyone could build a bridge if they had the money. they do not need to have gone to engineering school, have the education or training, they can just simply build a bridge.

how would you feel about that if that was still true today?

BYBers do not have the education, training, or qualification to breed dogs. if they did, they would not be called a back yard breeder.

don't let your selfish wants allow you to support what is NOT RIGHT!

backyard breeder are basically barber-surgeons. it's kind of barbaric if you think about it.