Biting

[roxies_mom]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I disagree with that. If you fear that the dog will bite you then it is clear that ethe dog sees you as submissive, and licking when they are behaving aggressive is what a subordinate dog would do.

The readers can make up thier own minds on what to do, and i doubt that I will change your mind. But you should never fear your pets. Now if you are working wsith strnage dogs, the advice would be totally different.f

But this person was asking about a yorkie puppy, not a full grown pitt bull. They do not understand human talk until they have been taught commands. But if they are biting you, you do not have the luxury of asking them kindly to trade a forbidden item for a treat.

And for the person who says her dog understands NO Bite and will start to lick her. Your dog should not be biting your hand in the first place. I never allowed mine to chew on me when they were puppies and they learned from the very beginning that they could not bite me in play or in anger.

I never allowed biting either that's why she doesn't ever bite me now. It was when she was a puppy and playing that she learned not to as well as with you.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I disagree with that. If you fear that the dog will bite you then it is clear that ethe dog sees you as submissive, and licking when they are behaving aggressive is what a subordinate dog would do.

The readers can make up thier own minds on what to do, and i doubt that I will change your mind. But you should never fear your pets. Now if you are working wsith strnage dogs, the advice would be totally different.f

But this person was asking about a yorkie puppy, not a full grown pitt bull. They do not understand human talk until they have been taught commands. But if they are biting you, you do not have the luxury of asking them kindly to trade a forbidden item for a treat.

And for the person who says her dog understands NO Bite and will start to lick her. Your dog should not be biting your hand in the first place. I never allowed mine to chew on me when they were puppies and they learned from the very beginning that they could not bite me in play or in anger.

A dog bite is a dog bite and I give a tinkers hindend the dogs size. It bites it going to have to be put down in most states and provinces unless you can call in Jean or James or Nick to get them off death row.

You teach bite control not no bite or you get a dog that does not learn it has pounds pre square inch that can do damage.
The things little dogs go after hands feet and noses, back of your leg. They bite that you can loose fingers and ties and a nose do to tendon damage and nerve damage.

They is a long standing story and it is true of a big therapy dog with its canine good citizen walking out a sliding hospital door.... tail got caught in the door... dog turned around and bite... what it that dog doing in a hospital with clients without bite inhibition or control.. the knowing when your teeth hit skin that you pull up.... should not have happened and would not if the dog been taught gentle over a no bite ever.
Only time mine has ever laid her teeth in me was when I caused it accidental pain and it pulled up as soon as she hit skin... and is a yorkie and is extremely aggressive and under great management.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by DarlingDelilah

I feel like I started a war. We're gonna be okay. Everyone has great ideas. I appreciate all of them. We'll try them all and go with what works!

Ok no you did not start a war... at least not on my side.
I love to talk bahaviour it a load of fun.. no I am not bugging anyone to get a rise out of them either.
You have it right. It is the sharing of ideas and the explaining of them that gets education done and great learning.
There is a boat load of difference from the two people these ideas come from. One works aggression and dogs with issues and lives with one and has worked " normal" dogs.
The other to my knowledge has been ever so graced with an aggressive dogs to the level that the other has.

Does not make either of us wrong in our ways but the first that works aggression runs things like all dogs can and are aggressive and if it works and makes an aggressive dog safe in public it will work and make a "normal" dog that much safer.
When 99% of the bites that occur are family dogs makes sense to make them as bomb proof as we can but there is still no guarantee.

If at anytime one fears one's pets, one should seek the advice of a proffesional dog trainer.... wait that is me....HEHEHEHE.
No really go find someone that packs the knowledge and the training to work a dog that causes any type of fear of them in you.. right away.


JL

[YorkieMother]

Oh my I see my brain is not working well lets try this again.

"The other to my knowledge has been ever so graced with an aggressive dogs to the level that the other has."

Should read ... the other to my knowledge has never been graced with an aggressive dog/yorkie to the level that the other has and not many can that have aggressive yorkies as bad as the first one owns and still be alive and functioning at the level it is.

There is and always will be a fundamental different between someone that owes and works an aggressive dog or with aggressive dogs and the way they deal with things even in a new 'normal" dog. As we know what the down side and the painful side of aggression is and we never want to see it again and we tend all of us that work dogs as bad as in need of expert care like PHD board certified behaviour people not just a good aggression trainer tend to make sure that we proof our dogs over the top and everyday.

We find the greatest achievement is not a ribbon on the wall although that be great but when the lay person that comes to touch your dog or allow their dog to interact with yours and you say no sorry you can not she/he is aggressive, it be a wreak.... and you hear no way it is better behaved then mine look at it sit looking at you. Then comes the how do you do it and a passing of a business card cause you never want to push the wee one sitting going Mom !!!! dog looking at me get it away ....to far to the break point.

JL

PS I usually only work small aggressive dogs ( or the normal guys) cause not to many around here like working with the faster moving piranhas like I do.

[JeanieK]

No war on my part either. I love discussions where I can learn.

I've been wathcing the "Dog Whisperer" and the new lady, on "it's me or the dog" and comparing their very different methods.

they both accomplish the same thing, but her's are more like you and his are more like me.

He walks in and immediately lets the dog know who is the boss. Just through body language. He doesn't say a word to them yet they know immediately that there is a New Sherrif in town. Once he establishes that, conquering the behavioal issues is easy. Their reward is being able to be next to him, the leader.

She on the other hand corrects each individual problem, and rewards with treats. they have to learn many different commands, and expect treats when they perform.

His method works much faster, the theory being, that the dog will try to please you just because you are the leader. And once that is established, any bad behavior can be corrected with just one sound.

They both agree that the family has allowed the pet to take over the house by not setting boundries.

I prefer his method, for several reasons, unless I am teaching tricks, I do not use treats. Just like with my children, good behavior was expected and had it's own rewards.

the second reason being is that people lie and dogs know they lie, therefore they pay more attention to body language than they do verbal commands. Body language doesn't lie.

Believe me your dog knows what you are going to do before you do it. they know when you are weak and volnurable, the know when you are happy and when you are sad and they know when you are mad.

So if you are not in the right state of mind, your dog will not listen to you unless they are doing it for a treat.

When you are late for work and your kids just spilled their milk, and you can't find your car keys, and the dog runs off with the kids homework, you don't have to to go and get a treat and hope the dog will find the treat more desireable than the than the homework.

With my method it is a chhht, and they stop what they are doing, and when I touch the item in their mouth and look them in the eye, they release it without a word spoken.

So I guess what ever works. On the other hand if I were working with someone elses aggressive dog, that became aggressive because he was not taught that he was not the pack leader, my methods might be different

The dog whisperer's biggest problems are the people that refuse to set boundries for the dog because it might hurt his feelings.

BTW my kids also knew from just one look that they had pushed me too far.

.

[YorkieMother]

OK lets work on our learning still and still no war. I so enjoy this it is good for both of us.

So positive is seen in you eyes as not being a leader or setting boundries... it actually the opposite.. we have very firm rules and structure but we ask not tell the dog to get to that structure. We do what is shaping to get them to understand the full picture. We use treats yes only in the beginning stages of any new learning skill and we rapidly wean them off or it becomes a bribe.. We call it a pay cheque and we do not go to work for one why should our dogs not work for one.
If you see a clicker trainer/positive running around with a treat bag for the basics you got a trainer that does not get it at all. my dog and my working girl all can do the basics with me on one request of action the reactive one takes her maybe twice on a bad day but that not lack of structure that dealing with a mental defect but they get no treats now for the basics if we have to tidy up a skill we pull out the treats or if we are working a new skill they come out.
We very quickly get them on random reinforcement to straighten the response time.
Also that we never use punishment.. yeah we do but it is time outs... it lost of a treat. it lose of going out. it relative to what dogs want not a yank or a zap.

Now let me make something clear... I not totally against Cesar, I agree with to main points one structure, two -dogs need way more outlets to get exercise then man of us give them and..... that about it.

I love it if you would try a little experiment. turn off the sound on the show Cesar's that is and just watch the dog.... count the lip licks, eye blinks, yawns, head turns, shake off. watch the tail.. you got to have the sound off to count well..... one show I had 100. Now what do they mean.... but everyones standards but his and that means the entire other dog world it means the dog is under stress and is therefore not able at those rates able to retain anything being taught at any level and some if you watch the lights go out and the dogs not in it head. he working with a shell souls packed up and left. Tell me how that is OK.

As far as wanting to please yeah you can say that we say wanting to work with us to learn with us.
He wants the dog to please him do as they are told, I very much ok with a dog going no I can not do that I would like to but I can not.

Example, I am away, I have my small dog with me and it usually climbs stairs no problem. This stay do to a on going problem with health the dogs stops at the bottom of the stairs, they are hardwood and made it very clear as is allow there was no way it be able to climb up.
To the point it went to sleep on the couch in the living room, it turned around as I was already at the top and headed to the livingroom.... it was fear it did not do what I told it to do. I could have said very clearly climb and it would have but the trust it has in me would have been broken as I stopped listening... it did try it really did and it could not get over it.... Positive does not ask a dog to get over it any more then we as humans can demand a human to get over being afraid of heights or spiders. We ask to try and if they can not we try a different way. Now I pulled out the treats and I asked that way, still got "I can not"..... darling fine I standing here with high value treat and I see you can not... do I then slap a leash and drag it up Cesar would... that shatter this dog it be gone... it really can not climb hardwood stairs the truth is it can not see them and they feel different they go up more slow and do not have carpet like home.

So then what... force or pick it up take it to bed and live on. It is a dog fragile by nature it did really try.. you want to see a dog try to please it did it made it two steps got a treat and sat down crying , this one cries rarely and if you have never seen a dog cry for not being able to do asked as you are lucky.
Cesar see it as a dog dominating.
I see it as a dog not able to over come a scary thing now maybe Monday, many be on Tuesday and maybe never but force wreaks a bond of trust faster then anything and this wee one alive because we built a relationship in trust after I broke the soul of by Cesar's way..... your talking to someone thats been there done that and a dog is paying.... experience says he wrong.

Also not once have I seen him able to work with any other creature but dogs....... I can work with fish, cats, humans, dogs, horses, and have with the way I train.

Anyone can train anyway they want always but I have seen both sides.
I have one that is sstill in recovery from the old methods and I have one on loan that learned only the poitive methods, I take new any day.

JL