Show Tail Question

[Babbie]

Yeah...that's what i am thinking it would happen...if FCI bans it will put the international show breeders in a hard position.

It is so interesting about the biewer and parti...aren't them a mix of yorkie/maltese tho? That;s what i always tought...they are very very cute. Unfortunately my heart belongs to yorkies...

I'll try to get some more info on them

Happy Hollidayssss!!

[YorkieRose]

It is hard to believe they are purebred, but they are or AKC would not register them..it is a pie bald mutated gene that produced the first Biewers..same with Parti's. I have seen many litters of Maltese and Yorkies from "accidents" a local had..they are very different in coloring. Biewers have a very strict standand...my heart belongs to the standand colors also...but I do love this crazy Biewer.

[marianna]

i have a very hard time understanding how one can justify mutilation on dogs/cats/etc. based on esthetical values, convenience (de-clawing cats for example) or just because it is standard and "the thing to do". I guess being from sweden makes you sheltered to these problems, we've always been extremely progressive when it comes to issues of cruelty and i think we banned any sort of interference with the natural traits of animals a while back (docking the tail was banned about 15 years ago if i recall the facts correct).

i know banning these issues in the US is a lot harder most likely, comparing the size of the country, the amount of breeders etc. but i just can not believe how even the nicest, most ethical people in the US are willing to do this to their beloved pets. i was born in the states and also lived there for a while in highschool and was shocked to find out how the people i would least expect to do these things to their animals actually went through with it..

the idea of docking the tail or cropping ears because it looks nicer is just a mindset, if you live somewhere where it has been banned for a longer period of time you would come to think of the animal's traits that are unwanted right now in the same way you would view the docked tail for shows, as being the standard and a beautiful thing. and a thing which plays a heavy part in judging the dog.

i certainly do not mean to offend anyone or start a heated debate or anything, i just wanted to share how some european countries view this issue. i've read docking the tail is not as painful as cropping the ears, but i just can not rationalize it or justify it in my mind. of course docking of tail must be allowed due to medical conditions as in cases of injury- but i do hope more countries ban all of these conventional practises. but just as stated earlier, i do not want to offend any of you or say that you are bad owners/breeders etc., this is just what i personally would wish for in more countries. and i know and fully understand that when it is a requirement and standard there is not a lot to argue against, especially if you intend to show the dog. and i also fully understand how never being exposed to this as being a serious issue by prominent breeders, boardmemebers of the kennelclubs etc. might make it impossible to view this issue in the same light as most people here would do, just as we may not be able to understand the different view we haven't been exposed to in a long while..

this is also my first post here, so i'd like to say hi to everyone!

[YorkieRose]

I enjoy hearding others opinons and take no offence. I am not opposed to tail docking because it can be done painlessly on a new born. How do I know there is no pain.. the pup does not cry, it is wiggling and acting fussy because they are being held and away from mom for a few minutes. The proceduce takes less then 30 seconds..and the tail is numbed. I can not do ear cropping..it is painful and a messy healing process..nothing I would want to be involved with myself.

May I ask if newborn male humans are circumcised in your country? I sort of equate the two. Yorkie tails were first removed for a functional reason, it has continued long after because of tradition. Same with humans.

[Gypsy Rose]

Many of you know that I live in Wales. Well I own 2 little girls (Gypsy Rose aged 18 months and Gizzie Chavi nearly 6 months) - both have undocked tails and this was the way we wanted it. It is of course far more common here but years ago most tails were docked by the breeder so our previous two yorkies had docked tails. Docking is frowned upon more and more over here now and the rule is that the breeder is no longer allowed to do the docking, it must be carried out by a vet. Our previous two looked very cute with a docked tail but so do our present girls with their very fine "fan like" tails!! No idea if the KC over here allows them to be shown with long tails.

[marianna]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

I enjoy hearding others opinons and take no offence. I am not opposed to tail docking because it can be done painlessly on a new born. How do I know there is no pain.. the pup does not cry, it is wiggling and acting fussy because they are being held and away from mom for a few minutes. The proceduce takes less then 30 seconds..and the tail is numbed. I can not do ear cropping..it is painful and a messy healing process..nothing I would want to be involved with myself.

May I ask if newborn male humans are circumcised in your country? I sort of equate the two. Yorkie tails were first removed for a functional reason, it has continued long after because of tradition. Same with humans.

Interesting parallell to circumcision! It is very rare in Sweden, I personally do not know anyone who is circumcised here, I checked it up on the Internet and according to Swedish healthservice about 2000-3000 males get circumcised per year, almost all of whom get it because of religious beliefs. Male circumcision (is this how it's spelled?) is done at hospitals, but there is a large number of females getting a procedure done for religious purposes which in english is reffered to as mutilation, but has a different name in swedish, and on the contrary to curcomcision this is illegal and therefore done in the dark. This is done in refugee groups of varying ethnicity, sudan and somalia are some of the countries. The most common way of getting it done in Sweden is that a number of families get together and make arrangements for a special woman to fly in from their country of origin, or they'll just ship them off for "vacation" to these countries and most of the girls get lifelong healthissues if they do not die or get severly ill just by the procedure itself. it is a large issue in Sweden now.. But there has been the equivalent of "bills" to make malecircumcision illegal in any other purpose than medical..


there is a few people in sweden importing bird/hunting dogs with cropped tails apparently, some people who have been active in the particular breed have had painful injuries to their dog's tails while hunting, but some other breeders from the same breeds feel that this is due to the fact that the tail was not recognized for so long that even dogs who were seen as good to breed on got genes with bad "tails". i don't know which one is true. but it is interesting to compare.

i don't see docking of tails as "as" bad as cropping the ears, i don't like neither, but i've read that cropping the ears is extremely painful and can take a long time to heal for some dogs does anyone know more about this? as in declawing cats i just can't support the arguments. i think it's even worse, trying to control/decide upon their instincts and natural functions.

sorry if this is irrelevant to the forum, i just think it's extremely interesting to who've been able to get a totally different view on the same things.

[marianna]

Originally Posted by Gypsy Rose

Many of you know that I live in Wales. Well I own 2 little girls (Gypsy Rose aged 18 months and Gizzie Chavi nearly 6 months) - both have undocked tails and this was the way we wanted it. It is of course far more common here but years ago most tails were docked by the breeder so our previous two yorkies had docked tails. Docking is frowned upon more and more over here now and the rule is that the breeder is no longer allowed to do the docking, it must be carried out by a vet. Our previous two looked very cute with a docked tail but so do our present girls with their very fine "fan like" tails!! No idea if the KC over here allows them to be shown with long tails.

i have a friend who's mother imported this extremely beautiful yorkie for them from the uk, he apparently has a magnificent pedigree and also sports an undocked tail. i was surprised since i know it still is allowed to dock, so i used to figure that showdogs would get automatically docked.

on a sidenote: her dog has the funniest name, it contains like 5 names or so and starts with a sir and has atleast a winston somewhere in there if i don't remember this wrong. he's the most precious yorkie, he's probably the yorkie that made me more interested in the breed, he's such a kiss- and cuddlemonster

[YorkieRose]

The odd thing is..it is painful when the vet crops the tail...at least the vets I know. They cut and stitch, all the while the pup is screaming and blood is dripping. I learned from the English to crop so I would not have to subject my poor babies to the vet procedures. I have docked them while the pups were nursing and sleeping, I rub a bit of honey on the mouth and they are busy licking, the nerve is numbed and off with the tail..they are barely disturbed...BUT if they pass a law not to dock I would have no problems...I am getting used to my Biewers tail and it is cute.

[orinskye]

as far as the declawing....... i can understand that (i dont know how painful it is) but my friend had her cat declawed after she had a baby (it was a good thing too, it turned out the cat was extremely jealous of the new baby)..... a docked tail i dont really care about, adn i prefer floppy ears..... so..... i do know that some yorkies get declawed (especially the dew claw) and i actually asked my breeder if he did this with his yorkies,.... the dew claw can grow so much that it curles around and grows into the skin if it is not taken care of properly... and you do not have to be a irresponsible pet owner to have this happen!! the nails grow pretty fast (toby's nails were ok, and then i checked him a FEW DAYS later, adn he almost has his dew claw piercing his skin )
I think the conflict lies in the differnces of culture, it would be extremely hard to pass a law banning docked tails in the U.S. AND we have that organization called PETA and a few other animal rights groups that are very dedicated to animal rights, and as far as i know THEY havent even thought it necessary to go "anti docking" publicly...... i can understand your position even more so considering you dont even have that many people circumsized even (great comaprison by the way), but again, just because these arent the way you do things doesnt necessarily mean that it is wrong....
Keep in mind i am impartial and have no opinion really on either side of the matter, but i do see the reason in both sides.....

Now, how in the world do you dock the tails yorkierose???

[debbie021268]

Hi,

I've been researching the Biewer breed alot. Fro what I see, there are not any actual breeders in the U.S. yet. There are a couple that get Biewers from Germany then seel them here. There are some members of the BYA (Biewer Yorkshire Association) that have puppies but they will only sell to BYA members. The BYA is starting the German Biewer/American Yorkie breeding and doing all of the dna and bile acid testing, etc. They will have 3 generations then it will be considered purebred....I think. There is another club in the U.S. - the American Biewer Assoc. - they are only breeding German bred Biewers and are following only the German standards for Biewers.....it's such a new breed here in the U.S. - a lot of controversy on breeding here I think.

[Itspuppyluv]

The BYA is starting the German Biewer/American Yorkie breeding and doing all of the dna and bile acid testing, etc. They will have 3 generations then it will be considered purebred....I think.

They are going to mix the two? Why would they do that? Or am I misunderstanding?

[debbie021268]

They already are mixing the two. I have to find the site, but there is one breeder who has puppies from this kind of breeding

[Itspuppyluv]

What I mean by that is if you want Biewers why not breed Biewers together?
Is it a health concern? I've heard of liver shunt problems but no more than the problems with standard yorkies. Why not do all tests and mate healthy Biewers? Knowing absolutely nothing about breeding, I was just curious.

[debbie021268]

Here is the link to the BYA site it explains why they are doing the breeding the way they are. Not everyone agrees with them - the other club, the American Biewer Club doesn't agree with the BYA partly because the BYA has changed the original German standard some. There is a large division between the two American clubs.

http://www.geocities.com/bieweryorki...istration.html

[Itspuppyluv]

Ok now I see why. Thanks for the information.