Does punishment cause more harm than good? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

mb8 · 04-05-2006, 08:41 AM

Hi, My one year old yorkie still does not always pee on her wee wee pad. SOmetimes she does, or she pees close to it. Or, she pees somewhere else entirely!
I've recently stepped up my efforts to catch her when she pees off the pad. I tell her bad dog, show her the pee and tell her No, she has to pee on the pad. Then i put her in her crate for a few minutes.
This seems just to make things worse. This morning she peed on the kitchen floor. I did the drill and cleaned it up. After i let her out she went to the spot right next to where she had just peed and did it again.
I've only been crating her at the suggestion of another dog owner. I never really did that before when she was bad. I think it's having the opposite effect. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank you!!

Bizzymammabee · 04-05-2006, 08:53 AM

Good question. Sure sounds like she is being a tad strong willed there trying to be dominant. What are you cleaning up the mess with? Maybe it's not totally eliminating the smell so it's still marked.

Good luck. I know if I give Lex a time out it seems to work for us.

Rem&Silkmom · 04-05-2006, 08:56 AM

wow...I outside train but I tried to train a girl yorkie to potty outside and boy was she stubborn. I have found boys to be very easy to potty train. Best of Luck to ya.

Chelsey · 04-05-2006, 08:57 AM

They don't understand punishment. I have experienced that praise works much better. Try not to clean up her mess while she's watching you, they translate it as "you are paying attention" that way they get confused. My 1 year old still makes mistakes, she'll be too busy playing to make it to her litterbox in time and will pee where she's standing. When that happens i ignore it and clean it up when she's in another room. When she does get it right, which is most of the time, we make a huge fuss of her!

Ladylavender · 04-05-2006, 09:02 AM

If you are catching her in the "act" of doing it, then you need to tell her "NO" (so she stops in mid-stream) pick her up and put her on her peepad and don't let her move off of it until has gone. (do you have word for her to pee on command? Like "go potty"?, because you should be doing this the whole time she is on the pad) Now, you may have to wall off or block off the "pee" area so that she can be kept in this area until she does go.

If you have caught her, after she has gone, then you really need to say nothing. Punishing her at this point is uneffective. All they understand is that you are yelling at her for going pee. Dogs cannot discern general concepts. She DOES NOT understand you are yelling at her for NOT going on the pee pad.

The best way to train a yorkie (in my opinion) is to NOT let accidents happen at all. You need to go back to square one and watch her like a hawk, take her to her pee pad regularly, tie her to you if you have to, and never give her a chance to make a mistake, and treat her like crazy every single time! She should have a command name to go potty so that when you take her to her pee pad, and you state the command, eventually she will go as soon as you give her the command.

You should only crate her when you cannot keep an eye on her, like you are cooking or cleaning or going to the bathroom, etc.

This is my recommendation.

Lexi Rae · 04-05-2006, 10:00 AM

great recommendation lady lavender, couldnt have said it better...

FirstYorkie · 04-05-2006, 10:06 AM

I agree 100% with LadyLavender & Chelsey.

I don't think this has anything to do with being stubborn or dominant. I do think that punishment make matters worse. Think about it. When you punish a dog after-the-fact, she has no idea what you are upset about. All he knows is that YOU are angry and SHE has to pay the price. So what happens? She gets stressed. And when she is stressed is she better or less able to problem-solve? If she's like me, her brain goes out the window when she gets stressed.

It is normal for a dog to go and pee where they just peed. Very normal behavior. That's why we are told to use enzymatic cleaners that will remove the smell.

Now, go back and read what LadyLavender and Chelsey said about prevention, interruption, and praise, praise, treat, praise. That's the best way!

SnowWa · 04-07-2006, 09:11 PM

It's true that if you don't catch them doing it - they have no idea what you're upset about.

But I have caught my dog mid stream often enough that he knows I don't want him peeing on the carpet.

Now - if he needs to pee, he'll walk around and keep turning around to see if I'm watching --- this is my clue to get him outside fast! And, he always readily pees outside....no problem...and we are both "oh, so happy" when he does this.

I never really punished him - but whenever I saw him starting to pee on the carpet, I'd jump up fast and start after him saying "No no no no!!!!" I think he quickly got the idea that he wasn't going to get to do this with me around. Then, of course I quickly ran him to his pee pad or outside. I guess you might call this "shock therapy." Anyway - we're getting better - slowly but surely.

I do know that when I'm home, if I methodically take him outside every hour and a half or two hours ---he never pees in the house. We actually went four days last week (when I was off work) without peeing in the house.

Remember - we are training ourselves - not our dogs! My taking my dog outside often doesn't mean he's potty trained. It means I have become trained to take him outside often. But - it works!!

Carol Jean

Carol Jean

Annie&Badger · 04-07-2006, 09:27 PM

I agree with most of the comments above. As much as it seems she's doing it to irritate you or being 'strong willed' she really isn't. My puppy has caught on really fast with his house-training but I've never once yelled at him or punished him in any way. It's the standard drill - newspaper in certain areas (because puppies have eight seconds worth of bladder control up until a year old - scientific fact) so he doesn't get caught short. He occasionally misses the paper but I take that as he tried to get it but I don't pay any attention to him and just clean it up. If he goes where I want him to, I say "good boy!" and make lots of fuss with him. It's all about positive reinforcement and I've learned to accept that they he have accidents - possibly all his life but that doesn't bother me. If it's an expensive carpet or something, I just don't put him in that room or on the bed until I know he's gone wee-wee

I would also not use the crate to punish her. Crates are their 'den' and that should be her comfort and time-out area and somewhere she can feel safe and secure when you're not around. The attention span in rewarding a dog is two seconds long so I should imagine that the same applies to punishment too. As irritating as it must be, I also don't think it's a good idea to yell at her or scold her as she's wee'ing in the wrong place. She DOESN'T UNDERSTAND and all she'll think is she's being punished for wee'ing at all. I bet you she's going in different places because she's confused about what you want. REMEMBER - ALL A DOG WANTS TO DO IS PLEASE YOU

. If you catch her, then put her where you want her to go and just stay on her case all the time. You'll get there!

04-05-2006, 08:41 AM	#1
mb8 Yorkie Yakker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 33	Does punishment cause more harm than good? Hi, My one year old yorkie still does not always pee on her wee wee pad. SOmetimes she does, or she pees close to it. Or, she pees somewhere else entirely! I've recently stepped up my efforts to catch her when she pees off the pad. I tell her bad dog, show her the pee and tell her No, she has to pee on the pad. Then i put her in her crate for a few minutes. This seems just to make things worse. This morning she peed on the kitchen floor. I did the drill and cleaned it up. After i let her out she went to the spot right next to where she had just peed and did it again. I've only been crating her at the suggestion of another dog owner. I never really did that before when she was bad. I think it's having the opposite effect. Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you!!

04-05-2006, 08:53 AM	#2
Bizzymammabee Luvs Lulu Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 6,931 Blog Entries: 1	Punishment.... Good question. Sure sounds like she is being a tad strong willed there trying to be dominant. What are you cleaning up the mess with? Maybe it's not totally eliminating the smell so it's still marked. Good luck. I know if I give Lex a time out it seems to work for us. __________________ Lulu will always be in my heart

04-05-2006, 08:57 AM	#4
Chelsey My2Pearls Chelsey & Chanel YT Donator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: N Posts: 4,097	They don't understand punishment. I have experienced that praise works much better. Try not to clean up her mess while she's watching you, they translate it as "you are paying attention" that way they get confused. My 1 year old still makes mistakes, she'll be too busy playing to make it to her litterbox in time and will pee where she's standing. When that happens i ignore it and clean it up when she's in another room. When she does get it right, which is most of the time, we make a huge fuss of her! __________________ Proud member of the crazy club

04-05-2006, 10:00 AM	#6
Lexi Rae Gina, (Lexi's Mommy) Donating Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: LONG ISLAND,NY Posts: 10,455	great recommendation lady lavender, couldnt have said it better... __________________ Gina & Lexi CLICK HERE for our Photo Album ...

04-05-2006, 10:06 AM	#7
FirstYorkie YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: American in London Posts: 1,739	I agree 100% with LadyLavender & Chelsey. I don't think this has anything to do with being stubborn or dominant. I do think that punishment make matters worse. Think about it. When you punish a dog after-the-fact, she has no idea what you are upset about. All he knows is that YOU are angry and SHE has to pay the price. So what happens? She gets stressed. And when she is stressed is she better or less able to problem-solve? If she's like me, her brain goes out the window when she gets stressed. It is normal for a dog to go and pee where they just peed. Very normal behavior. That's why we are told to use enzymatic cleaners that will remove the smell. Now, go back and read what LadyLavender and Chelsey said about prevention, interruption, and praise, praise, treat, praise. That's the best way! __________________ FirstYorkie We Love Clicker-Training!

04-05-2006, 08:56 AM	#3
Rem&Silkmom YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chesapeake, VA Posts: 833	wow...I outside train but I tried to train a girl yorkie to potty outside and boy was she stubborn. I have found boys to be very easy to potty train. Best of Luck to ya.

04-05-2006, 09:02 AM	#5
Ladylavender YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Soddy Daisy, TN Posts: 733	If you are catching her in the "act" of doing it, then you need to tell her "NO" (so she stops in mid-stream) pick her up and put her on her peepad and don't let her move off of it until has gone. (do you have word for her to pee on command? Like "go potty"?, because you should be doing this the whole time she is on the pad) Now, you may have to wall off or block off the "pee" area so that she can be kept in this area until she does go. If you have caught her, after she has gone, then you really need to say nothing. Punishing her at this point is uneffective. All they understand is that you are yelling at her for going pee. Dogs cannot discern general concepts. She DOES NOT understand you are yelling at her for NOT going on the pee pad. The best way to train a yorkie (in my opinion) is to NOT let accidents happen at all. You need to go back to square one and watch her like a hawk, take her to her pee pad regularly, tie her to you if you have to, and never give her a chance to make a mistake, and treat her like crazy every single time! She should have a command name to go potty so that when you take her to her pee pad, and you state the command, eventually she will go as soon as you give her the command. You should only crate her when you cannot keep an eye on her, like you are cooking or cleaning or going to the bathroom, etc. This is my recommendation.

04-07-2006, 09:11 PM	#8
SnowWa YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA Posts: 2,992	It's true that if you don't catch them doing it - they have no idea what you're upset about. But I have caught my dog mid stream often enough that he knows I don't want him peeing on the carpet. Now - if he needs to pee, he'll walk around and keep turning around to see if I'm watching --- this is my clue to get him outside fast! And, he always readily pees outside....no problem...and we are both "oh, so happy" when he does this. I never really punished him - but whenever I saw him starting to pee on the carpet, I'd jump up fast and start after him saying "No no no no!!!!" I think he quickly got the idea that he wasn't going to get to do this with me around. Then, of course I quickly ran him to his pee pad or outside. I guess you might call this "shock therapy." Anyway - we're getting better - slowly but surely. I do know that when I'm home, if I methodically take him outside every hour and a half or two hours ---he never pees in the house. We actually went four days last week (when I was off work) without peeing in the house. Remember - we are training ourselves - not our dogs! My taking my dog outside often doesn't mean he's potty trained. It means I have become trained to take him outside often. But - it works!! Carol Jean Carol Jean __________________ http://tinypic.com/ipxhmb.jpg A Yorkie is worth a thousand words.

04-07-2006, 09:27 PM	#9
Annie&Badger YT Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: London Posts: 284	I agree with most of the comments above. As much as it seems she's doing it to irritate you or being 'strong willed' she really isn't. My puppy has caught on really fast with his house-training but I've never once yelled at him or punished him in any way. It's the standard drill - newspaper in certain areas (because puppies have eight seconds worth of bladder control up until a year old - scientific fact) so he doesn't get caught short. He occasionally misses the paper but I take that as he tried to get it but I don't pay any attention to him and just clean it up. If he goes where I want him to, I say "good boy!" and make lots of fuss with him. It's all about positive reinforcement and I've learned to accept that they he have accidents - possibly all his life but that doesn't bother me. If it's an expensive carpet or something, I just don't put him in that room or on the bed until I know he's gone wee-wee I would also not use the crate to punish her. Crates are their 'den' and that should be her comfort and time-out area and somewhere she can feel safe and secure when you're not around. The attention span in rewarding a dog is two seconds long so I should imagine that the same applies to punishment too. As irritating as it must be, I also don't think it's a good idea to yell at her or scold her as she's wee'ing in the wrong place. She DOESN'T UNDERSTAND and all she'll think is she's being punished for wee'ing at all. I bet you she's going in different places because she's confused about what you want. REMEMBER - ALL A DOG WANTS TO DO IS PLEASE YOU . If you catch her, then put her where you want her to go and just stay on her case all the time. You'll get there!