Socialisation Problems/Questions

[Annie&Badger]

Hello again!

I have more questions about Badger and would appreciate any advice. Unfortunately, I have to go into a bit of a ramble to give the full background so my apologies

As some of you know, I got Badger when he was nine weeks old. When I picked him up the breeder she told me that he should not be innoculated until 12 weeks. I thought that sounded fine but I had been referred to a very good vet and thought, after a week, that I'd call and find out if Badger should have a checkup anyway. One of the nurses at his clinic said it was fine to bring Badger in for his innoculations so I took him along the following week when he was 10 weeks

I took Badger to his rooms in his carrier and when it was our appointment, the vet took it from me, put it on the floor and left the door open for Badger to come out while he chatted to me. After a while, Badger still hadn't come out and Dr Fogle (the vet) said "oh that's interesting. It's not good that he's not come out by now" and he lent down and got him out. Badger was a little timid with him but after a few minutes he started sniffing about and seemed fine. Dr Fogle gave Badger his first shot and he told me that Badger would need to go to socialisation classes and meet lots of dogs and people. I was a bit concerned about this whole thing because up until that point I just assumed he was just a young puppy and this 'timidness' was just normal. When I was leaving Dr Fogle gave Badger to his receptionist/nurse and mentioned to her that "we have one that was the youngest in the litter" and they kind of looked at each other . She then spent some time telling me (she was holding Badger at this point which kind of irritated me because she hadn't asked me if she could and she also seemed a bit bossy) how I should not, under any circumstances, mollycoddle him or if he cried and whimpered (which he used to do a fair bit. Not too much and hardly ever now), I should just put him down and ignore him. She recommended some Petsense classes which are close by and she also said that he needed to be exposed to as much noise, traffic, people and situations as possible and that this window of 'opportunity' would close at 16 weeks and after that it would be very difficult to socialise him properly. I of course was a bit shell-shocked that my gorgeous puppy that I had set so much store in being my faithful companion was now some kind of 'problem' dog so I listened attentively to everything she said and duly called Petsense to book a place for him at classes starting the next day

What a disaster! He just stood there shaking and he puddled on the floor 3 times. All the other dogs there were under 14 weeks but you'd never know it. They were all medium to large dogs and some seemed full grown to me with what looked like aggression problems. Badger was just terrified. He didn't do any of the 'lessons' even though he's a right little play addict at home. They didn't really offer any one on one advice which I didn't expect to be honest but they could see he was struggling. The woman who runs the class came over at one point and asked me how many dogs he was meeting a day. I told her none so far because he'd only just had his shots. She then gave me this really stern lecture about how he had to meet between five and 15 dogs a day (?!). I told her that there was no way I could meet that many dogs. Where would I meet them? He'd only been out for two days and hated walking and the other thing I was concerned with was other dogs attacking him. He was just over a pound at this point. She said he had to meet them, that dogs had a language of their own and that you could judge the dog by the owner. I asked her how I would do it and she said "just put him on the ground, stroke the other dog and let them do the rest". By this time I was feeling more and more deflated. I almost got the impression that they wipe off Yorkies as being neurotic and uncontrollable. They didn't say it but the general impression I got was that's what they thought. Anyway. I'm not bothered what they think to be honest

So me and Badger go home and I started trying to take him out for little walks and on the subway and onto both busy and quiet roads. Most of the time, he'd walk right on my heels. It's a bit nerve-wracking walking a dog of that size because it's so easy to stand on him but I persevered. He just wasn't acting like a normal dog though. Wasn't interested in sniffing anything. Occasionally he would stop and start whimpering but I remembered what they'd all said and I didn't pick him up although I did reassure him in a comforting voice. I'd also go to our local coffee shop but as soon as I'd pick him up, he'd be shivering and shaking. I was also worried he was cold but the vet also told me expressly not to put him in jumpers or coats because he was a 'timid' dog and this would add to his feelings of 'insecurity'

So anyway, after a week, I started to feel really down. Every time I took him out, he cried as we went out the door. I tried to introduce him to some dogs but that was just a nightmare. I point-blank refuse to introduce him to any bull terrier breeds. I wouldn't want to be introduced to them so I'm pretty sure a one pound Yorkie wouldn't want to be either. The dogs I did see that looked okay, I would always ask the owner "is your dog okay with puppies?" and they would say they were so I'd put Badger down and within two seconds, the dogs that were supposed to be 'okay' would start lunging and barking at him. My poor Badger. He'd just stand right behind my knees (I crouch down when meeting dogs) and shiver and shake. On one occasion we met a man with a Yorkie which I was over-joyed about, asked him if his dog was okay, he assured me his dog "loves puppies" and the next thing this Yorkie just started snarling and snapping at Badger!! I can't even begin to tell you how sad it is to see a little animal like that just cowering with it's head down. I picked him up and this man's dog just went ballistic and was almost trying to savage me. I was so angry!

Anyway. At my wits ends, I called a really lovely breeder called Mrs Webster who I had previously had some nice chats with before and one thing led to another and I told her I was very worried about the puppy I had and so on. She was just lovely. She said that no way did she take her puppies out until they were about sixteen or twenty weeks and that a lot of vets may know about dogs medically but that doesn't necessarily mean they're breed behaviour specific. I had mentioned to the vet that Badger wouldn't go into the bathroom for instance and was scared about going into other rooms in the house and he said "well that's typical of a timid dog and that's why we need to get him socialised". Mrs Webster disagreed. She said in her experience, Yorkies don't like certain floor surfaces especially tiles because they're slippery and so on and she said Badger not coming out his carrier at the vet's was typical puppy behaviour. She suggested not walking him anymore but just letting him build up his confidence slowly. So instead of walking him, I just put him in our small back garden (which he loved) and I took him out with me down the road but I carried him instead. I did this for a week and then one Friday night, my husband came home and we had to go out to the grocery store and we thought we'd take Badger with. So I started carrying him out the door and then he started struggling. So I put him down and the next thing he bolted off, sniffing the ground, wagging his tail and just being like a proper dog!! I was stunned! Mrs Webster had been totally right. The last week has been brilliant. He loves going out now. I literally can't keep up with him. He loves meeting other people to the point that it's almost embarassing the way he goes up to everyone as if he's saying "Hey! Have you met me?!". People adore him too because he's such a great looking little dog and he has such a fabulous walk. He's also a lot more confident round the house, goes into all the rooms and the bathroom (I started playing with him in the bathroom to make it all fun for him. He doesn't shake any more outside either and he generally seems quite confident and happy. The only problem now is he's still terrified of other dogs. With his new found confidence, I've tried to introduce him to other dogs but he goes straight back into that cowering thing and now I'm wondering if I overwhelmed him and he may now be scared forever

I hope someone's managed to read all of this. I'm so sorry for all the detail but basically I just want to know what you all think: have I messed up Badger's chances for good socialisation? In your experience, did I do the right thing and is he really a 'timid' dog or is he developing at the correct rate? Should I take him back to those puppy classes? The next one is on Wednesday and I have paid £100 pounds for them and only attended one out of eight (the cut off age for puppy attendance is 14 weeks). Should I make a concerted effort to introduce him to more dogs or just leave him to meet the dogs he wants to? Does it really matter for him to meet other dogs? What advantages are there to him meeting other dogs other than just playing? Could it protect him in certain situations? I want him to be a happy dog. He's absolutely great with people. Very friendly and loves attention but when it comes to dogs...

Sorry again for such a long post and thankyou very much in advance for any advice. Annie x

[reneernc]

Sorry I don't have any advice but I do wish you luck with whatever you decide is best.

[sandraj]

Well done.It sounds as though you are doing all the right things to get Badger on track. Vets aren't always experts on small dog breeds and can have a bit of an attitude to them and their owners. You did the right thing talking to your friend the breeder. In regards to the dog socialisation issue,do you know of anyone with a quiet and gentle dog/pup you could visit/have visit you? you could build Badger's confidence like this. I would ask for a refund at the classes. Or you could go to one and just hold Badger on your knee and see if he wants to get down and build it up gradually. i don't think much of your puppy classes.The ones I went to were really good at personalising their advice and working 1-1 with you where needed.We had a shy poodle who gained confidence slowly and they were good with her.
Keep in touch with your breeder friend and use this site for good advice. I would consider changing your vet to one more knowledgable about small breed dogs.Do you want this man to operate on your baby if need be?
Keep up the good work with your baby. He has a lovely caring Mum!

[Annie&Badger]

Originally Posted by sandraj

Well done.It sounds as though you are doing all the right things to get Badger on track. Vets aren't always experts on small dog breeds and can have a bit of an attitude to them and their owners. You did the right thing talking to your friend the breeder. In regards to the dog socialisation issue,do you know of anyone with a quiet and gentle dog/pup you could visit/have visit you? you could build Badger's confidence like this. I would ask for a refund at the classes. Or you could go to one and just hold Badger on your knee and see if he wants to get down and build it up gradually. i don't think much of your puppy classes.The ones I went to were really good at personalising their advice and working 1-1 with you where needed.We had a shy poodle who gained confidence slowly and they were good with her.
Keep in touch with your breeder friend and use this site for good advice. I would consider changing your vet to one more knowledgable about small breed dogs.Do you want this man to operate on your baby if need be?
Keep up the good work with your baby. He has a lovely caring Mum!

Thanks so much ladies . Your support really means a lot

Sandraj... He is a very highly regarded vet and is considered to be somewhat of an expert on dog behaviour. He told me he grew up with Yorkies and he was recommended by a lady I know who has a Yorkie so apart from the obvious concern I had, I do think he's a very good vet. I think I will look into a small breed specialist though just to keep my options open with regards to anaesthetics and so forth

I'm also wondering if I should go along to one more of those classes but if I reasonably feel that Badger is uncomfortable, I'll leave immediately. I might be wrong but it irritates me that they probably just assume that I'm some airhead who wants a 'purse' dog. He's not that small anyway and I'm not like people like Paris Hilton who just want an 'accessory'. I wouldn't put a dog in a handbag for a start and I'm a great believer in that as cute as he is, he's still an animal that has certain needs. I don't know anyone with a small dog or dogs unfortunately

I'm pretty sure it's important but what are the reasons for socialising him with other dogs? Is there a reason they all lunge at him do you know? Is his submissiveness making them more aggressive? I would have thought it was the reverse

Also, was it bad that he came to me at nine weeks? The more I read the more I seem to think that he wasn't socialised properly at the breeder and alot of sites and info seems to say they should be coming at 12 weeks when they've been fully socialised with other dogs and people. No offense to her because I still think she's very good but she strikes me as one of those people who is probably scared of getting attached (she's a real Yorkie nut!)

He's become a real people dog though. Initially he was quite timid but I've taken full advantage of his cuteness to get people who stop us in the street to give him treats and hold him and cuddle him. He loves the attention! I can't walk down the road anymore without him causing some kind of mini riot

[FirstYorkie]

No, it's not bad that you got him at 9 weeks. Most people in the US are currently recommending that pups stay with their Moms until 10 or 12 weeks. In the UK, many advocate adoption at 8 weeks. There are no hard and fast rules.

The fact that you got him early does increase the importance of early socialization with other dogs.

You really do want Badger to overcome his fear of other dogs because it will make for a happier life for him. Going to the vet, groomer, obedience classes, etc etc are all going to be infinitely more worrisome for him if he is afraid of other dogs.

Introducing him to other dogs, though, will need to be done carefully and slowly. You want to be very sure that nothing happens to make him more afraid! Talk to your trainer. If your pup doesn't learn any lessons whatsoever but does learn to be in the room with other dogs without cowering, then it's time and money well spent. The trainer should be willing to help you with this.

Basically, you want to reward (praise and treat) any brave behavior on your dog's part. At first, that may mean rewarding for coming only an inch out from behind your legs. What you don't want to do is reward cowering.

Our training handles puppy interactions different from most. I didn't like it at first, but now I think she's right. Dogs are allowed to greet each other nose-to-nose for a count of three. One two three. That's it. Move on and greet someone else. If a dog is cowering or otherwise demonstrating that he doesn't want to be greeted, he should not be approached by others.

Does that help any?

[Jaspermom]

Bless your heart!! You have had some nerve wracking experiences, haven't you?

Be aware that I am no expert by any means, but I have owned yorkies for 17 years. Are you a home-body? Is your pup going to be home with you alone alot? If so, don't worry too much about socialization.

Do you go out a lot and want to have your pup with you at all times? In that case, you are completely doing the right thing by taking him with you where you go. You have already accomplished getting Badger to meet humans with confidence, and that is great! And as far as meeting other dogs, don't push it! I would never, under ANY circumstances, forcefully introduce a one pound puppy to another animal of any kind that was larger than he! It is way too easy for an unaggressive bigger dog to unexpectedly turn aggresive without warning. I lost a full grown yorkie to my brother's cocker spaniel that attacked her right in front of me. I would not wish that on anyone.

I would suggest contacting your yorkie breeder friend and asking her if she has one or two docile yorkies that Badger could go play with. Or maybe you can put a small breed meetup together sometime and advertise at groomers and vets. Or you could ask your vet if they would contact some yorkie owners for you to set up play dates with.

It is not mandatory for Badger to meet other dogs, but it is preferrable if you are expecting him to be in multiple dog situations. I would not force it. Let Badger go at his own pace, and he will eventually come around. You have done a wonderful job socializing him to other humans. Take your time, and Badger will be fine.

All the best!! And welcome to YT!

[SnowWa]

Annie&Badger --

I think everyone has made you overly concerned about your little dog being shy and fearful. My Bichon is that way. But, he's four years old now and has become very friendly and playful with a lot of my relatives, friends, and neighbors. (My vet said to me about my little Bichon, "Usually Bichons are very outgoing - but occasionally you find one like yours that is a little shy and fearful." Believe me, that's all he said, and I already knew that. He just felt that that was my dog's personality and temperment and it was acceptable to him.

When you take your dog out, if he is afraid, I would definitely hold him. But, do get him out occasionally and let him become more used to other people and dogs. I think that being secure in your arms will help him realize more quickly that he is safe. And, later, when you are certain that another dog is gentle, you might bend over and pet that dog and let it sniff your puppy. Perhaps this is as far as you want to go for a long time. But doing only this will help your puppy realize that other dogs can be nice and won't hurt him.

Children are a wonderful want to socialize a dog. Sometimes when a little child is just lying on the floor, a pup will feel that it's not threat and run all over licking its face, etc.

My pup (who was really a little afraid of children) totally loved to play with them in the yard. This way, he could run all over with them and still easily stay out of their reach. We started out having the little children run away from him - and he'd usually take out after them - and then pass them and before long they were having fun and running all over. And, he could do all this without letting the children even touch him.

I have quite a bit of company at my house - friends, family, and neighbors. My little pup was much more secure with people visiting us. For some reason, he thought if they came here - they were okay. And he has grown to love many of our visitors and goes crazy happy when they come over - dogs and people!

My pup has become friends with two other "small dogs" that belong to my neighbors. He was careful at first, but after three summers with them, he's not afraid anymore. They play together occasionally, but more often just ignore one another.

Yorkies are such small little dogs - I don't think we need to panic about socializing them with strangers and strange "larger dogs." They are predominately housedogs and usually are never around other people or dogs without our being right there.

Take your little pup out and around as much as you can - I think if you do hold him and make him feel secure, he'll learn much quicker that nothing out there is going to hurt him. I can't imagine deliberately putting a little puppy in a situation that frightens him.

Anyway - I think you just have a shy, fearful little dog. Take him out as much as you can - let him see a lot of other people and dogs - and do whatever you need to do to keep him feeling safe and secure when you go out. I think he will overcome (some) of his fears much quicker this way. But, I think he will always be a sweet somewhat shy little guy. There is nothing wrong with this.

I just flat out wouldn't worry or take seriously all the stuff you have been told. It's too bad you didn't visit my vet. You would have left his office feeling that you had a cute shy little dog.

****** I sure think that taking your pup to classes and putting him on the ground around strange people and other dogs must be making him more afraid - not less. I would just haul my pup around and keep him feeling safe and secure wherever we go. He'll grow and gradually accept many other people and other little dogs and not be afraid of them. And, he may always be shy - but like I said, that's okay........ He's just a loveable, shy, little pet -enjoy him the way he is.... Keep him safe, and happy, and secure - he'll do just fine.

Carol Jean