Fighting brothers II
 

A couple weeks ago, at wit's end because Eddie had been thrashing our new guy Jack regularly, I stumbled on a blog that talked about aggressiveness between dogs in the same family. It said rather than punish the aggressor, you should try to elevate his status as the alpha.

I thought I was seeing some positive signs, but it's still not working. Eddie has whipped up on Jack the last three days in a row. The fights look more violent than they are, but the problem is, Jack is still recovering from surgery and shouldn't be in fights with his thug brother.

I've been googling all night and can't find anything that makes better sense than the blog. Somehow, I think I have to take a more active role in letting Eddie know that fighting isn't acceptable. But how do I do that w/o lowering his alpha status?

No replies? Where's the love?

Let me rephrase more succinctly:

What should you do if your alpha beats up your other dog over toys? I tried elevating Eddie's social status, but he started beating up on golden retrievers.

I am sorry Mike I can't help you. I just wanted to let you know it is hard for me to picture sweet Eddie as a Thug... :eek:

That's what they said about Son of Sam.

And Yorkielover, I agree with you about boys being boys, but the little boy just had surgery. :(

Don't know what to tell you... I've never lived in a multiple dog household.

I did manage to find this excerpt from Raising Rover . Don't know if it'll help or not though.... It was a link of off Dr. P's Dog Training, which has difference selections of links on various topics. There's sections on dominance and on multiple pet households....

Hi. I feel your pain and I can't find much help either. I have a female Yorkie and a female Maltese and lately they have been having some fighting issues too. Actually, they get along great except for when the doorbell rings, then Bella barks and Harley tries to stop her by biting the back of Bella's neck. I really don't know what to do either. I did write both of their breeder's and if I get any useful info I'll pass it on :)

Hey, thanks KellyV, I missed your post. Those links help. The frustrating part is after it explains that you should just let the dogs work it out on their own, it says that in some cases you have to step in when you have a geriatric dog. That's what I have. But it doesn't say how to make that work. Arrgh. I think it's getting slowly better, though. I'm letting my alpha be alpha but letting him know that fighting isn't appropriate.

LOL...Little Eddie a thug ? no way ! :eek:

I can share in your pain as a dad....When we first got Cheri and she got big enough to race around with toys that HAD been only Chanel's....my little angel turned into a Gang-Girl and would jump Cheri to get the toy back....

Eventually...they reached a truce...and Chanel 'let' Cheri play with the itty bitty toys only...then gradually....she was 'allowed' to play with bigger toys...till in time...Cheri can now 'touch' any toy she wants :D

It was FUNNY to watch and now each plays with whatever they want...anytime they want ....with only the occasional 'stealing'...then they play-fight and kiss to make up....

Sorry Mike, I don't have any advice as I only have one little YOrkie. I wish for two and will be learning from all your experience when and if I ever get number 2. I wish Eddie and Jack much brotherly love and you and your wife-PATIENCE. I will ask my pet expert and she what she says- she did tell me before when I was introducing my daughter's yorkie to KimMee to do so outside and pick up all of KimMee's toys and beds - put them up off the floor when the new dog came inside. I know it is too late for you for that but.

Mike, maybe this would work....

Keep the boys separated with a baby gate for Jack's protection most of the time. They can continue to interact through the gate, but at least Jack will be safe. Continue to treat Eddie as the alpha. As you reinforce Eddie's alpha status, with time you can allow them to be together more and more, but under STRICT supervision only. Eddie will grow more secure in his alpha status and leave Jack alone.

I might be off base, but it makes sense to me, based on my understanding of doggie psychology. Maybe FirstYorkie can provide some insight....

I read through a few of those and had the same question. HOW do you step in so that it all works out okay??
If I'm understanding what I read correctly, you shouldn't yell at Eddie for fighting with Jack and shouldn't coddle Jack because Eddie went after him. I guess just separate 'em without saying a word to either! I don't know.... At least things are getting a little better.

When I got another cat the established male of the house wasn't very happy. They hated each other. Every time one fell within eyesite of another there'd be a fight, hissing and spitting and growling... Neither of them had claws and they never involved teeth, so I'd just let 'em argue. Eventually they fought less and less. Then one day I get home from work and they're sleeping on the couch together! WTF? You hated each other yesterday!! Maybe if we're lucky the same will happen with Eddie and Jack!!

I do have to say that I'm a bit surprised at Eddie! From what I've seen of him, that just doesn't seem to be in his nature....

Try saying "That's enough", then put them in a "down and stay position" (apart from each other naturally) or send them to their own bed.

When they've done that, give them each a treat.

You would not be giving them the treat for play fighting.

It works for us with the girls!

Thanks, everybody. Great advice! I think I'm gonna try both the baby gate, Alison, and the separate technique, Muffie'sMom, if they do fight. The baby gate might make Eddie appreciate having a friend around a little more.

And, Villette, I'd never believe Chanel and Cheri had a cross word between them! If they can work it out, maybe there's hope.

The more I read, the more I realize we probably did everything wrong when we first got Jack. He had surgery, so we were coddling him and giving him a lot of attention. No wonder Eddie finally lashed out.

You're such a good dad...and yes there is hope.

It took a few months for my girls to be the Make-out Queens they are now...maybe you'll get lucky and have 2 little gay boys yourself ....and before you know it ....they'll be melting your heart kissing each other too ~!

When a new dog comes into the house there is a change of dynamics among the dogs. You may want to get a basic book on dog behavior.
Do not tolerate this behavior. You need to be the Alpha dog! It may come back to haunt you when you least expect it and would never leave them out together. Once they start like this, sometimes it is a long running problem. Remember you are the boss.

I agree absolutely - you have to be the BOSS!!

Mike, did you get that book? One is called "Multiple Dog Households" and the other "Outwitting Dogs".

Something we still "tether" Missy so she can't quit get to Muffie. You could try doing that to Eddie (good luck). Missy is our instigator.

Also, we feed them in separate places. They have separate beds.

Never give them food or treats together.

Sometimes Tom will take Muffie back in the bedroom. That separates them for awhile.

I understand that training is very important for dogs that fight.

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether they're playing or fighting!

Good luck. If YOU find any new solutions, please let ME know. You have my email address.

Thanks, Pat!

Loki beats up on the dobermans at daycare so I will have to deal with this issue should we ever get a second dog. I don't think you should let Eddie be the Alpha. You are giving him too much power. If he fights like that, you need to ignore him or put him in his crate. Fighting = no freedom. Eddie is in training right - have you talked to the trainer? Also, is it a positive trainer? I know you've mentioned "correcting" Eddie before and generally positive trainers do not do this. It's best to use a positive trainer for agressive dogs just because other methods can (not always but can) make the problem worse. Reward Eddie when he is kind. Teach him good things (food/attention) happen when Jack is around. Beyond that, I'm at a loss because like I said - I have a bully too. Can you try petting Jack while someone holds Eddie or has him on a leash and praises/treats him for being kind? Teach him he gets treats when Jack gets attention?

Loki gets mad when I pet the neighbor dog, even though he is Loki's best doggy friend. So I go pet the other dog while my husband re-focuses Loki and gives him treats. Also I feed Loki with one hand while I pet the neighbor dog with the other hand. Slowly he is learning to be more polite.

But again, this sounds like you need a professional. :animal-pa

You may be dealing with a protective aggressive dog if he "gets mad" with the neighbors dog. There are basically 4 types of aggression and some of the Yorkies have it!

If they're fighting over toys, have you tried taking all the toys away? I only have one yorkie and three cats, but the cats view the Yorkie as the "little brother they never wanted" and basically put up with him and pretend to play with him sometimes.

Let me know how things work out.

:animal36

I agree about the toys. When Loki is being especially monsterish I pick up all his toys and put them away except one. He has to earn that one toy by politely playing a game of my choice. He gets over his monsterness very quickly when he remembers he is not in charge.

However it's probably more likely they are fighting over attention, right?

Could you please explain what the 4 are? Thanks :)

I'm pretty new at this, but spend a lot of time at the trainers...one thing I've learned is just that THE HUMAN is the boss. Also, when the dogs are at dog club, the goal is to keep the alpha's from being to aggressive and to booster the confidence of the submissive dogs....of course, I don't exactly know how to do this as their seem to be endless shades of grey, so I'm no help at all...but I'm concerned that by supporting the alphas feelings of being in control, you're just supporting his need to beat up on the little guy.

Aren't their any professionals out there on yorkie talk who can help out? I know I'd be lost without our trainer, she's great! P.S. I don't like to ask her for too much free advice, but when I see her later this week, I'll try to run this by her, maybe she'll have something good to offer!

Also, for what it's worth, it took Ginger (new dog)and Kirby (long time resident)several months to work out their roles with each other...

Good luck!

A good book to read is "The Dog's Mind, Understanding your Dog's Behavior by Fogle, DVM - Can not find my copy.

Dominance Aggression - This is when the dog's status in the pack is challenged. Maybe by a new dog coming into the house. A puppy that growls when another trys to take a toy. Even eye to eye contact will bring out the aggression among two dogs or a dog and a person. Some think this is why children sometimes are attacked by some breeds of dogs.

Even puppies it is shown - when a puppy mounts another puppy. Trying his best to show a little dominance.

Fear aggressive - if a dog is cornered out of fear they become aggressive.

Protective aggressive - This dog defends his "stuff", his territory. His yard, his toys, his food his master, his favorite chair.

Forget what another is....but is when dogs have the preditory instinct to herd sheep...and act in a preditory manner.
It is preditory aggressive I believe.

A good book on understanding dog behavior and why they act the way they do is a good investment and often you can get used books.

Thanks for the info on the 4 stages of aggression. I am always researching many experts on this topic because of rescue. Many theories are starting to change in this arena..

http://www.brucefogle.com/

If you are involved in rescue then I am sure you have to learn a lot about dog behavior. It is a very interesting subject. Many believe that dogs have the same thought processes as people and understanding that they do not - and understanding what you dog is saying in his actions is one of the keys to a happy dog or becoming a happy dog.
People in rescue provide a wonderful service.

Can you give us some insight as to which direction he is leading people in relation to dogs playing/fighting?

Thanks, Cindy.

I am pleased to see this thread regain some life!
 

I think there are a lot of dogs with aggression issues out there, and I have one. Dreama growls and nips a lot. I am trying to win her over, but any help I can get from y'all will be appreciated!

I wonder how Eddie and Jack are getting along these days! Mike?

Those that said that you are the boss are right on. You are the pack leader and when on dog attacks another you need to go over and make him sit/stay or something that will let him know that you are the alpha dog and what you say goes. If you get the national geographic channel, you should watch the dog whisperer with Cesar Milan. He has a website and a book that talks about animal behavior and dog pack behavior. I think you will be amazed if you watch him.

Cesar Millan's new book comes about in the next week. I preordered it on Amazon.

It's titled "Every Day Guide to Understanding and Correcting Common Dog Problems".