Who cares about an "alpha status" - when one dog is beating up on or hurting another dog. I think, in this case, we should just step in and be the "alpha dog" ourself. Isn't that what we're supposed to be anyway?

Carol Jean

I've read up a lot about this and I am still confused. I don't know if we should interfere or not!*!*! ??? :confused:

I know that we as humans are [U]THE LEADER OF THE PACK/U]. :thumbup:

The two dogs will have to decide which of the two of them will be the dominant one.

It may not work out the way we "see" it as humans. :eek:

They don't think like we do.

I get concerned because Muffie is older and has arthritis and cataracts on both eyes. She doesn't get MAD. She just doesn't like to be woke up and start playing right away. Missy won't leave her alone. Muffie makes a lot of noise growling but she doesn't get mad.

After awhile Missy (puppy) will end up getting mad after Muffie's "put her down" several times! But Missy keeps coming back for more. No blood has been drawn between the two of them.

Mike and I have corresponded via email as we both have the same problems with our dogs. He has 2 males and we have 2 females. I've recommended some books for Mike to read.

I've explained to him that I felt like he needed to protect Jack UNTIL he's fully recovered from surgery. Keep him separated by a gate. :thumbup:

I'm anxious to read Cesar Millan's new book that comes out next week. It's about fixing common behavior problems. ;)

Good luck with everyone. :thumbup:

CINDY: What is some of the "new stuff" that you are reading about dogs fighting whether it's "playing or fighting"????? We'd appreciate some input from you. I know you probably see it a lot in the rescue dogs you get. ;)

:exclaim: I'm not sure that Mike is even interested in this topic anymore but it's an interesting topic although somewhat difficult to discuss in generalities. For instance, Jaspersmom, it's hard to advise you without knowing more. In what situations does Dreama growl and nip. Toward other dogs? Humans? What are the circumstances?

In general, I think my thoughts are fairly closely aligned with MuffiesMom's. That is, the human is the LEADER of the pack. I wouldn't say "Boss" because that implies physical dominance on this board (& that I don't believe is necessary). I don't believe that humans are part of the social hierarchy of the dog's pack and the human doesn't need to concern himself with who is "alpha" and who isn't. The dogs will work that out amongst themselves. :doghop: :doghop: :doghop:

That said, though, it is the leader's responsibility to ensure the safety of the group. If one sibling is being beat up on to the extent that blood is being drawn, the dogs may need to be separated and they may need to be separated indefinitely until they can be trusted. The leader will also want to remove items that provoke fights. Do they always fight over bones? Don't give them bones. Do they fight over toys? Don't give them toys when they are in the room together. If they can't eat nicely in the same room, don't feed them in the same room. Get the idea?

If the squabbles are noisy but not physical, I would recommend a policy of cautious watchfulness. Squabbles are going to happen and they aren't necessarily a cause for alarm. If no physical harm is being done, I think the human should stay out of it (other than watching closely that no-one gets hurt). :eek:

:lightbulb One technique that I've read about to help siblings get along is called "serial feeding". Line them up and then rapidly feed one bite for you and one bite for you, too. One for you, one for you, too. Do it quickly so they don't have time to fight for the other's share. If one dog does react poorly, he can be quietly escorted from the room while the nonreactive dog continues to be fed. Supposedly, it doesn't take long for reactive dogs to figure out that reacting doesn't get them what they want (food).

I agree with what you're saying.

You gave me a good idea. The next time they start playing, I will just remove ALL the toys and see then if they still want to play. Normally Missy wants whatever toy Muffie has. I kind of doubt she will want to play as much but will soon find out sometime today!

Yes, most definitely, Mike is still interested.

I'd still like to hear from Cindy about her ideas and new thoughts she's been reading about this.

Thanks for your input.

"Thanks for the info on the 4 stages of aggression. I am always researching many experts on this topic because of rescue. Many theories are starting to change in this arena..

http://www.brucefogle.com/"

I got a PM regarding this thread so here is my 2 cents. The above post I made was interesting to me as I have never seen aggression broken out by a number before but it makes sense and I posted the author so other people could see. I have ordered his book but have not read it yet.

I must have 10 - 15 books on behavior in dogs and every few years the thinking changes or more studies have been done to change the previous thinking. Understand, I think there is a difference between a behaviorists and a trainer. The biggest change and the slowest to come around was the theory on Alpha dogs based on a Wolf study they now realize was not a correct study (if you type in Alpha roll in the search bar you will see a short article on this). Unfortunantely this theory is still around and many (so called)trainers are still using it. I prefer to read books on behavior and for quick reads Whole Dog Journal & Cummins School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University Newsletter which I receive once a month are excellent resources. I am not an expert by any means but I do take a little from each one and this is what works for me and the rescues I work with.

1. Full understanding of what a terrier is and for the most part they are not sweet little lap dogs. I do have one that is very sweet but he is not typical of a Yorkie. I always have this saying that dogs will breed to form. I have to laugh at what is on the AKC website "While a Toy, and at various times a greatly pampered one, the Yorkshire is a spirited dog that definitely shows its terrier strain."
2. I treat each dog as an individual and I understand each one has a different personality just like human children. They all will react different to the same set of circumstances and it is up to me to figure out peace in the home. I know each dog and what makes him feel secure and what scares them. I never, never push them to be identical and if one wants to live in the closet for awhile that is fine with me. They eventually all start spending time with me and the gang. I tolerate when they talk (growl) at me or even nip at me because I don't know what happened to them in their first home but I do realize they are trying to tell me they don't like what I am doing. I respect this and back off for the time being...sometimes it just takes time for them to become more comfortable..but again just like some humans who don't like certain things I work around the issue. I really do look at these guys as 2 or 3 year old children and this seems to work for me and a group of 10 dogs.
3. I believe they all have to work out their problems on their own - again just like children and I am always watching the new dog to see if they are frightened or if they go after mine. Now this is where it is tough, sometimes somebody has to get put in their place to keep order in the house. My oldest female for the most part just ignores everyone but if someone keeps bugging her then she will turn on them. They deserve it and I never pamper them if she puts them in their place. It usually is over in seconds but I have noticed the other dog will not bug her again. The only problems I have had is with 2 of the big dogs (13# & 14#) getting into major fights over a toy (they would have fought to the death and I step in and separate them and put them in different rooms for an hour or so (literally I could pick up both dogs at once because someone had a neck hold). Because of how violent the fights were I don't have toys in the house and yes blood was drawn). :eek:
4. Everyone has their own food bowls and I feed them all in the same order everynight with the newest rescue fed last. Again just like kids, I wouldn't want to share a dish with my sister and I should be fed first because I am the oldest.

Do we interfere or just let them play/fight
My dogs play all day long and sometimes you would think they are fighting but I can tell you a lot of noise happens but a true fight will escalade very fast and you will know the difference. When one dog is putting the other dog in its place it really happens fast and is over with right away.
When should we separate
See above
Do we take toys away
Only if a violent fight broke out. This is part of their breeding and they are proud of killing the rat and carrying it around. The other dog will try to steal so he can be the victor.
Keep on leashes while they're playing/fighting
No, I believe at some point in time they have to work it out and I think keeping them on a leash in a home is only driving them more crazy.

When it comes to treats if everyone is acting crazy then I stand up and wait until they all calm down, if they start up again then I wait again. It doesn't take them long to figure out they won't get treats acting like crazy people.

I am not into training my dogs as much as I am into understanding what makes them tick. If I want things to change then I give treats and reward for good behavior. I have boundaries and because I am consistent it doesn't seem to be an issue. I have a large fenced in backyard so I never have leashes on them there but if we go out in front everyone is on a leash even if we are going in the car. I never go out the front door with them but only through the garage door - so I really don't have a problem with them all rushing to try and get out the front door.

Okay after this long note, I must say when you have an injured dog then you have to protect the injured dog but after everyone is well then I say let them work it out but watch carefully. It helps me the most to treat them like a 2 or 3 year old child and how I would handle the different situations.

Just so everyone understands this is just my opinion and I am not a professional.

Mike,
The first time Tripp came into our house our normally out-going rambunctious Tucker turned into an anti social hiding Tucker. We were shocked, but it was because he was scared I guess, and would snap at Tripp for taking bones or coming too close when he was tired. They have it all worked out now and Tripp has figured out the stealing technique on Tucker. So, I think it will work itself out, and I agree that seperating them would probably be best. Good luck!

GREAT post, Cindy!

Excellent thread!
 

I have really enjoyed this thread, and have been currently working on modifying Dreama's behavior. I did not give more detail in my first post as I feel capable of handling this, and merely wanted to monitor the thread and see how others are doing.

Dreama's nippy time has everything to do with my bed. If she is on the bed, and we approach the bed to sit down, she comes over and growls/barks and mouths our hand like she is protecting HER territory, and we can't have it. At bedtime for doggies, she has become aware of our cues as to when we are going to take her off our bed and put her in the crate for the night, and will try to hide under the covers and then nip at us when we try to pull her out. We are using "Be Nice" as our cue words, and she is understanding what that means. It's only taken a few days. My problem is trying to be consistent because Daddy is not as authoritarian as I am.

I would welcome any advice, because you never know! Someone MAY have a good idea that I am not already using. :p

Cindy! Thank you my friend. You came through with flying colors. Thanks for replying so everyone can benefit from what you're doing with the rescue dogs. I'm sure you read a lot more than what we do.

I guess I'm following in your footsteps in the dog training books. Hubbie is opening mail and says "Here's another book for you!" I just can't seem to get enough info to help.

I agree with everything you wrote. We've been lucky so far and haven't had any blood drawn yet.

The only thing that I am doing different is I still have Missy "tethered" right beside me on a 12" leather leash. The reason for this being I don't want her to have the "run" of the house quite yet as she's only 6 months old. I don't feel like I can trust her to NOT go potty in the house. She's doing beautifully on the tether though - no accidents in 2 months.

I think the tethering of Missy helps to protect Muffie a little bit also. That way MUFFIE can decide WHEN she's ready to play with Missy. Muffie has arthritis in her legs and also has cataracts on both eyes. Missy was constantly waking Muffie up to play ALL the time. That made Muffie MAD.
There's nothing worse than being woke up abruptly - hard to be in a good mood even for us!

With only the 2 dogs, we try not to give loving and affection to one in front of the other. We wait till one's gone out to go potty or in the other room with hubbie.

The main times we give treats are while we're practicing training. We also put them in the crates with special treats when we leave the house.

Thanks Cindy, for the great post. I'm sure everyone will realize that all that is ONLY your opinion. I don't want anyone to go wild on you.

We appreciate your input. I know there are many that will read that post more than once!

Glad, in the past we HAVE allowed Muffie to get up on our bed BUT lately since her arthritis is flared up in her legs, she is unable to jump that high. So we have NOT even put her up on the bed since we got Missy.

We have NOT and will NOT put Missy up on the bed because there are too many problems that can arise from doing that.

We feel that we have enough time to play with them everywhere else in the house and don't need to do it in the bed.

Can you perhaps just STOP letting both of them on the bed? That's probably what I would do.

It's just my opinion.

LOL, there is no PUTTING her on the bed, LOL
 

I swear Dreama is part moutain goat, and she can leap tall buildings at a single bound. She leaps onto the bed. It's either let her into the bedroom, or you HAVE to put her in her crate as she will scratch the door until we relent. And it's really our quiet and affectionate time with the pups, so we really like having them on the bed until we want to sleep. I am working on it, and she will quit the growling/biting thing eventually. Most of the problem is the fact that as a rescue, Dreama had not had any obedience training at all, so it's a slower process to train a 4 year old, I think.

But she's coming along! Thanks for the input, Pat! :p

For Dreama I have an idea. Not so much about the agression, but since your problem is with the crate I think I can help. When Loki was a puppy and he thought we were going to put him in his crate it was "chase me" time. He likes his crate and immediately settles down when in it, but being chased is more fun for him! Eventually I just taught him the "crate" command and he goes there on his own. Here's how you do this.

Start slowly during the day when she does not feel threatened by you putting her in there. Set her in there and say "crate" and give her a treat. Don't even need to close the door. Then make HER walk in the crate and give her the treat. Basically she associates "crate" with TREATS! Reinforce this randomly throughout the day, closing the door for varied periods of time (keep her guessing). The end result is this: When we leave I typically leave Loki with a special toy, a kong, or if it's only for a few minutes - just a treat. I hold up whatever it is (usually the kong), say "crate" and he bolts to his crate and sits and waits for it in his crate. Sometimes if I give him a Kong during the day I will find him with it IN his crate even with the door open because he knows Kongs=crate. He tends to take his special things there. Anyway, if you work on this in a few days/weeks you might just have to ask her to go to her crate and she will do it eagerly. No more biting.

As a side note, Loki also knows "off" and "on" commands. If he gets annoying when he's on the bed (like he won't budge from my spot, or he bugs us to play) I ask him to get off and tell him to go to HIS bed on the floor. He behaves most of the time because he doesn't want to get kicked off.

I liked your input Erin. We kind of do the same type things with Muffie & Missy.

I guess we're lucky in that our bed is way TOO high - it's a deep box spring plus the mattress has the thick pillow top on both sides - so it's really high! I even have to get on tippy-toes to get on the bed or slightly jump up.

Muffie doesn't even try to jump up on the bed anymore. I don't think Missy has even thought about it. She barely walks by the bed.

Missy hasn't even noticed our steps going upstairs yet! Thank God because climbing those stairs hurts my legs!

Good luck with your training. :thumbup: :)

Pat - Keep ordering (I use Amazon for used) and reading many different resources. I find that a lot of books can be very generic and don't deal with a terrier personality which I believe is different than say a lab or a golden retriever. I also trust my gut on what I think is good advise and again would I do this to a 2 or 3 year old child. It helps me to weed out advice that I think could mentally harm the dog. Again, my most favorite is Tufts University Newsletter
http://www.tufts.edu/vet/publication...dog/index.html
because they have a section on Behavior and a section on Training (IMHO two different things) along with Medical and numerous other sections. I give this Newsletter a big thumbs up :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I also agree with keeping tethered until you trust her to be loose in the house ;) . At some point and time I am sure that Muffie will put Missy in her place so just be ready. As I said it took a long time for Maggie to finally get fed up with Bella but her handling of the situation was swift and Bella no longer bugs her.

Glad - Funny about the bed because I have run into the same issue with a number of the rescues. To save myself some pain I always keep a towel by the bed so if I have to move them (I cover them with the towel) I don't get bite in the process and after a few times of moving them they get the idea (your problem is training your husband to be consistent :p ). I totally agree with Erin on treats in the crate. I remember years ago when I thought the crate was a bad thing but I have learned that these little guys love their little caves and feel very secure in them. I have open door crates all over my house and someone is usually sleeping in one - by their choice. The other thing that I think is funny is that the gang knows after I take a shower that I am going to be leaving the house. So here I am trying to get dressed and going back and forth with 10 Yorkies following me...Now, I know you are thinking they are getting worried because mom is leaving the house - NO, they all know right before I leave the house they get treats and they do not want to miss out :D They all line up and get their treats and I easily walk out of the house. I consider this positive training as I can positively get out of the house without a problem.

Erin - you always have great advise :thumbup:

LOL, Cindy that's great, and when Dreama first started with the "No I am not going to bed, and if you try to pick me up I will bite your hand off" I kept a towel by the bed, too. Using "Be Nice" I have progressed to just my hands, which still get mouthed a bit when I first pick her up. She's getting there! :p

Erin, I do use treats in the crate, but I don't do the conditioning during the day, which is another excellent idea! :D

Thanks, ladies!!

JaspersMom, what if you kept the bedroom door closed until your bedtime? That way, she doesn't have time to get all comfy before you get in bed, too?

Hey Cindy: Right now, Muffie doesn't have any problems putting Missy down and letting her know she's boss. BUT, she just doesn't like to be woke up by a puppy all over her.

I'm still reading. Let me know if you find any good books or articles on behavior modification.

I would love to hear what some of the newer behaviorist are saying about dogs playing/fighting and what to do.

Multiple Dog Households
 

If anyone is interested.....

I have received another book I ordered that you might be interested in.

It's titled "Multiple Dog Households" by Miriam Fields-Babineau.

It has good insight about bringing an older dog into your household with another dog already there, also talks about it being easier to bring in a puppy. It talks about the good, the bad, and the ugly.

The book was only $12.95 and has lots of good info that is going to be helpful to me as to what to do with our two play/fighting.

Check it out!

Always do!
 

She's never in there alone. But she's faster than us and jumps up on the bed as soon as we let her in,

But thanks for trying! :p

Well, then, put a leash on that pup to keep her off the bed until you get there first!

That might help, Glad.

Because Missy isn't totally housebroken and doesn't have the run of the house yet, I keep her on a leash in the house almost all the time. She gets to run in the kitchen but that's about it.

I just finished reading the book titled "Multiple Dog Households" and it WILL be very good to go by.

They have this on sale because I think it'll be discontinued. This site is selling it for $4.95 plus shipping. I paid $12.95 for it.

The book overview:

Multiple Dog Households addresses the special needs and lifestyle issues that go hand in hand with having two or more dogs in the home. From introducing a new dog or puppy into the household to the unique care and living situations required, this book will offer the reader advice on how to make the most of sharing your life with more than one dog. Also included are valuable training tips that will make daily life easier, up-to-date information on nutrition and healthcare, and activities that your whole pack can enjoy and participate in together.

The site to order it at discount is:

http://www.bookcloseouts.com/default.asp?R=0793830885B

Good luck everyone!

I just might have to order this book and check into it.

I found another site after that where they were only $1.99!!!!