Could use some serious advice. Fighting

[capt_noonie]

I don't have any advice, but this thread taught me a lot! Made a lot of sense of how humans give attention to dogs vs how they should be given attention, the scolding, etc.

Uni and Toto fight often too, but in small spurts less than a few seconds. It's always over a toy. After reading this, I'm not sure which one is the dominant one.

[Graneet]

Boo will go at princess and there are times she taunts him. By running up thumping him and running off all the while him snarling and groweling. Lol dogs remind me of kids.

[Zoey Zendaya]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I'd surmise, without actually being there to experience them, their personalities and interactions, and see them prior to the fight, I'd extend an educated guess that Mylee, weakened physically and psychologically from her long sickness and period away from the house, insecure now, gave the stare to Moka as a warning to back off, "don't keep attacking me". That was your cue to quickly step in, back Mylee and then Moka off in a non-threatening or scary way, stand them down until they each give in, move away from each other as you stand there like a cigar store Indian, intent on having your way as ultimate leader of the pack, no matter how long you must stand there and stare back at them, using your hands in the outstretched "Stop/stay" position to show you mean business.

The moment they break off and move away, you matter-of-factly walk away, thus teaching them after a time or two that giving in and giving up gets a quick reduction in the tension - which is what dogs want during a stand down. But for the next few weeks, I'd go ahead and separate them at that time, matter-of-factly(no anger or frustration in you - this is a "teachable moment") putting one or both where they can't access one another until they are completely over the spat and offering each a Kong or something to distract them as a reward for giving in to your wishes. In time they will learn to back off sooner for their ultimate reward.

But going back to the Mylee's stare, instead of any intervention to stop the warning that became an escalation, Moka, sensing no leader was going to police them, met the stare as a dare or invitation for a round-house rather than comply with Mylee's probable warning to stay away. Yes, dogs misread each other's intent all the time. Still, it's possible Mylee could be trying to overcompensate for her feelings of inadequacy/insecurity from the illness, bringing out her dominant/defensive-aggressive side of your normally calm, submissive little girl dog to meet what she recognizes as her packmate's recognition of her illness/personality change and the resultant instinct to dominate/rule her with physical attacks. That's why you must police them closely to quickly recognize and stop those escalations prior to attack and show them what behavior is required of them by their loving leader.

Monitoring these two's social interactions for the next two months or more and stopping/preventing unwanted behavior is now your job until they learn to police themselves and co-exist. Returning to life as it was pre-illness might not happen so be prepared for that possibility - sometimes dogs never return to their previous copacetic existence, though most do, given even-handed leadership and well-enforced boundaries. Never, ever be too far away from them to quickly intervene and stop stares, stock-still, intent bodies and high-held tails, standing/leaning forward on their toes, tense lips. As long as they are back on their feet, relaxed, lips and bodies loose and have soft eyes and ears, you can stay put and just observe.

Keep up the regular, several-session obedience training, teaching them newer and harder things so they have to work their brains, really concentrate and apply themselves to learning and doing the new commands and tricks. Dogs who've done obedience have to have their daily lessons or life isn't as fulfilling and they look for other things to get into sometimes. Both dogs could use more work during this time of relationship flux. Increased outside walks, exercise, puzzle games and obedience training for short, short, frequent sessions can keep an otherwise troubled dog in an unsettled situation physically and mentally challenged, satisfied and feeling good about himself, despite life and circumstance changes going on within his little pack.

Also with existing 1 and a half year old both being females?

Zoey isn't taking to newbe very well. She postures and follows and wants to lunge at the little thing. I do keep baby in pen and am right there in the middle when they are having their periods of getting to know each other.but Zoey is extremey curious.....and try's to be in her face. ....

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Zoey Zendaya

Also with existing 1 and a half year old both being females?

Zoey isn't taking to newbe very well. She postures and follows and wants to lunge at the little thing. I do keep baby in pen and am right there in the middle when they are having their periods of getting to know each other.but Zoey is extremey curious.....and try's to be in her face. ....

I'd cut her some slack as she adjusts to a new baby in the family - one who is likely coo'd over and cuddled more than she'd like and maybe is raising some jealous feelings she needs time to adjust to. She's probably unsure what the baby might do next, which is what's likely behind the lunging - her way of telling the little one to keep her distance as stare's/glares rarely work on puppies - it takes actual stopping them in their tracks to usually corral them as adult dogs quickly learn. Even momma dogs have troubles keeping puppies under control.

Should she ever seem to be stalking the puppy as prey, bare her teeth more than a split second or growl deeply and threateningly - the truly serious threats anyone recognizes for what they are - or her body goes silently stiff, still and tense, should she nip or bite at the little one, then you should glare at her, raise your arm and point at her, stand up, usually not saying anything as sudden or scary sound can provoke an attack during a very, very tense, hair-trigger moment, still locking eyes with her and pointing at her, confidently move into her space, backing her off and standing her down while still staring/pointing at her until she softens, gives up and leaves the area, clearly showing her that type of more aggressive behavior against the baby won't be tolerated by her pack leader. Once she backs off, you walk away and resume your seat and show your older dog that's how she relieves the tension of the moment - softening, giving in to your boundaries quickly and moving away from the baby. A few minutes later, if she's still calm and staying put, a nice pat or tickle and a little smile will reassure her that she's still your baby, too.

The next time, only allow her to get within 4 feet of the baby if her body's not wiggly, eyes/ears soft and everything about her is showing she wants to be friends. If she tries to get closer, point, stand up and back her off in a matter-of-fact, teaching-type manner, requiring that she give the baby some space for now, while she's adjusting to its presence in her world. Also shoo the baby back to her permitted area, saying "back, back, back" or "go to your play spot" with your outstretched hands as you bend down and corral her back to the center of the room, beginning to teach her some early boundaries as well.

Just be sure to always monitor all adult dogs around puppies until the pups are old and savvy enough to outrun, hide or fight back should the older dog get pushed to its limits of tolerance during the transition period of a newbie joining the family. Remember, to most dogs a new puppy is an interloper at first and a spastic one at that, likely to do almost anything. But given some time and boundaries, usually even the most hostile-acting older dog will usually soften up in time and begin to accept the baby as a young pack member. The moment you see her beginning to act to protect the baby, you'll know she's accepted it as a full pack member, though pack members still have their disagreements and social bumps from time-to-time.

[Cha Cha]

I am not trying to contradict you, but rather to learn. Do you not agree with Cesar M's theory that dogs feed off negative energy? Like say, if you anticipate a fight, they will fight? If you leave them to work out their issues in dog terms and language, they will do just that? I only ask because at the moment of an intense stare, the moment they hear a noise, or see a movement, the attack is on. They are not focused on me, the leader, they are absolutely only focused on the other dog. So the moment you react to the stare, (my opportunity to get involved to stop it as you say) is the moment they react and attack. Which was exactly what happened. My dh noticed the stare, like you say, he tried to stop it, but he was in his recliner, with a blanket over his lap and Mylee on top. He couldn't possibly sit up, remove a blanket and also keep Mylee at bay all in the time it took Moka to pounce off my lap and over to her across the room to attack. While I feel Moka is picking on the weak, I also feel we are doing something wrong to escalate the issue. We are giving off some kind of negative energy which is not helping the problem. If it were just about dominance, or the weak, then wouldn't they fight when we are not around during the day? In fact, as long as I am up and moving about the house or in my kitchen (open floor plan, I can see all around the living room, dining room, and kitchen) they are perfect angels. No problems until "I" want to join my dh and the dogs in the living room and sit down to relax. Uggg it's so complicated. Last night they were good girls. I did notice Moka pushing Mylee around a bit, and "strutting her stuff" being a bully and I did call her off on it. At those moments, I think calling her off did help and redirect her attention. Thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I'd surmise, without actually being there to experience them, their personalities and interactions, and see them prior to the fight, I'd extend an educated guess that Mylee, weakened physically and psychologically from her long sickness and period away from the house, insecure now, gave the stare to Moka as a warning to back off, "don't keep attacking me". That was your cue to quickly step in, back Mylee and then Moka off in a non-threatening or scary way, stand them down until they each give in, move away from each other as you stand there like a cigar store Indian, intent on having your way as ultimate leader of the pack, no matter how long you must stand there and stare back at them, using your hands in the outstretched "Stop/stay" position to show you mean business.

The moment they break off and move away, you matter-of-factly walk away, thus teaching them after a time or two that giving in and giving up gets a quick reduction in the tension - which is what dogs want during a stand down. But for the next few weeks, I'd go ahead and separate them at that time, matter-of-factly(no anger or frustration in you - this is a "teachable moment") putting one or both where they can't access one another until they are completely over the spat and offering each a Kong or something to distract them as a reward for giving in to your wishes. In time they will learn to back off sooner for their ultimate reward.

But going back to the Mylee's stare, instead of any intervention to stop the warning that became an escalation, Moka, sensing no leader was going to police them, met the stare as a dare or invitation for a round-house rather than comply with Mylee's probable warning to stay away. Yes, dogs misread each other's intent all the time. Still, it's possible Mylee could be trying to overcompensate for her feelings of inadequacy/insecurity from the illness, bringing out her dominant/defensive-aggressive side of your normally calm, submissive little girl dog to meet what she recognizes as her packmate's recognition of her illness/personality change and the resultant instinct to dominate/rule her with physical attacks. That's why you must police them closely to quickly recognize and stop those escalations prior to attack and show them what behavior is required of them by their loving leader.

Monitoring these two's social interactions for the next two months or more and stopping/preventing unwanted behavior is now your job until they learn to police themselves and co-exist. Returning to life as it was pre-illness might not happen so be prepared for that possibility - sometimes dogs never return to their previous copacetic existence, though most do, given even-handed leadership and well-enforced boundaries. Never, ever be too far away from them to quickly intervene and stop stares, stock-still, intent bodies and high-held tails, standing/leaning forward on their toes, tense lips. As long as they are back on their feet, relaxed, lips and bodies loose and have soft eyes and ears, you can stay put and just observe.

Keep up the regular, several-session obedience training, teaching them newer and harder things so they have to work their brains, really concentrate and apply themselves to learning and doing the new commands and tricks. Dogs who've done obedience have to have their daily lessons or life isn't as fulfilling and they look for other things to get into sometimes. Both dogs could use more work during this time of relationship flux. Increased outside walks, exercise, puzzle games and obedience training for short, short, frequent sessions can keep an otherwise troubled dog in an unsettled situation physically and mentally challenged, satisfied and feeling good about himself, despite life and circumstance changes going on within his little pack.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by horsnaround

I hope you get it figured out. My daughters two dogs started this after one was three and one was six It got so bad they were actually hurting each other. We tried everything one was neutered and one was not. Neutered the one hoping that would work. But it didn't. I think we tried everything. The vet suggested. We tried scents we tried a mild drug we tried the attention thing. Like you we feel are dogs listen well and are very trainable. Needless to say I took one of them. They get along well with all the other dogs just not each other. To this day when my daughter comes to visit we have to take turns with them running with the others. The minute they get to close to each other they start growling. And it's been 3 years since they have lived together I do not understand it at all. We have dealt with two different vets on the matter. Besides reading everything we could and then trying it. We have accepted it and keep them apart. I sure hope Mylee and Moka do not get to that point. But when our two fought someone and usually both were bleeding that's how bad it got. Sorry I have no good advice.
We have the occasional bullying around here with the three of them but nothing even close to how the two would go at it. And usually a stern voice they will knock it off And never bite are draw blood. Good luck and keep us posted on how there doing and any tricks you learn along the way.

Oh gosh, this sounds terrible! It is interesting how different groups of dogs can have different hierarchies. A boss in one home does not guarantee a boss in another. I am confident I'll get my girls back to the same loving girls they once were, but I'm not guessing it's going to be easy.

[EarthAngel]

Shelly, I had the same kind of thing happen when I had 2 female spayed German Shepherds. The older one (Kara) and younger one (Mia) were 3 years apart in age. I hadn't known about pack mentality...I have had 5 dogs at a time and never had one problem. I think the fact I used to take the 5 dogs out on a lead to potty may have been key with them. But with Kara and Mia I would let them both run out the back door into the 100'x100' fenced yard to potty.

One day when Kara was around 8 and Mia 5yrs. old they were in the back yard and Mia went after Kara and held her neck. Thankfully, I was able to separate them and didn't think it would happen again. A couple weeks later it happened again only this time in my kitchen! Neither was hurt from either incident. From that second time on they were separated by rotating them...one would be in a crate and the other in the kitchen and vise versa every several hours. It was a pain to have to do that but it guaranteed no fighting. This went on for 5 years until Kara passed away at 13.

When I got Bentley I was more versed in the pack hierarchy. He was 4 months old when I got him spring of 2009 and then got Baxter, my Boxer that September. I kept Bentley the alpha by petting him first, taking him out first, eating first (both had to sit to get their food) and treats first. I don't want to jinx this by mentioning they are best brothers. I don't let them stay in the house loose when I am gone for any amount of time.

Maybe you can restore Moka or Mylee (whoever you believe was alpha or was there first) by feeding one of them first, etc. I know how upsetting it is to go through this and I hope you will get it all straightened out. By the way, I still have Moka's valentine paper heart on my fridge from years ago!!

[Maximo]

Shelly, I am sorry you are facing this and I hope you find the solution to return peace and peace of mind back to your home. Based on my experience with my 2 boys, I agree that the situation is complicated. I don't believe there is one solution that fits all situations.

Max and Teddy are both strong males. Max is technically the dominant one, but there are so many blurred lines. Max allows Teddy to push him away from his food, from the water, or even take his prime sleeping position next to me. Max will roll on his back to let Teddy have the upper paw in wrestling.

When one is sick or injured, they support and comfort each other. But when fully recovered, the challenge is on! Mostly Teddy challenging Max's status.

When they have less activity and exercise (usually because of the illness and injury), that is when Teddy can be naughty. I can usually distract them, get them to focus on something constructive.

When things get out of hand, I never physically put myself in between them or try to tear them apart. I raise my voice "Nooooo!" and stamp my feet if necessary. This makes them stop. I give them a few minutes to cool off and then we do tricks/obedience exercises for kibble.

If Moka and Mylee engage, try breaking it up by making noise.

I agree with the article that the humans being in the room has something to do with it. Max and Teddy are quiet as church mice when they are alone, as video has proved to me, although I have read of other dogs attacking when alone. Sometimes when they are misbehaving, wrestling too hard but not all out fighting, I withdraw my attention and announce that I am leaving. That makes them stop.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Cha Cha

I am not trying to contradict you, but rather to learn. Do you not agree with Cesar M's theory that dogs feed off negative energy? Like say, if you anticipate a fight, they will fight? If you leave them to work out their issues in dog terms and language, they will do just that? I only ask because at the moment of an intense stare, the moment they hear a noise, or see a movement, the attack is on. They are not focused on me, the leader, they are absolutely only focused on the other dog. So the moment you react to the stare, (my opportunity to get involved to stop it as you say) is the moment they react and attack. Which was exactly what happened. My dh noticed the stare, like you say, he tried to stop it, but he was in his recliner, with a blanket over his lap and Mylee on top. He couldn't possibly sit up, remove a blanket and also keep Mylee at bay all in the time it took Moka to pounce off my lap and over to her across the room to attack. While I feel Moka is picking on the weak, I also feel we are doing something wrong to escalate the issue. We are giving off some kind of negative energy which is not helping the problem. If it were just about dominance, or the weak, then wouldn't they fight when we are not around during the day? In fact, as long as I am up and moving about the house or in my kitchen (open floor plan, I can see all around the living room, dining room, and kitchen) they are perfect angels. No problems until "I" want to join my dh and the dogs in the living room and sit down to relax. Uggg it's so complicated. Last night they were good girls. I did notice Moka pushing Mylee around a bit, and "strutting her stuff" being a bully and I did call her off on it. At those moments, I think calling her off did help and redirect her attention. Thanks for your input.

Well, that theory of dogs feeding off the energy of the pack leader & others in the pack far predated Cesar or any other single dog handler - has been known for centuries, as you can tell from talking to old-timer dog handlers who learned from their grandfathers, father, mom's, etc., who said they learned it from their elders and so on. Plus, reading old books shows you anyone who spends much time around bunches of dogs soon figures out most of what they are all about and what triggers which actions/reactions. Cesar has nothing original in dog handling, he just televises his ideas and ways, some of which may be harmful to some dogs' psyches.

I always let my dogs work out hierarchical pack issues unless one is hurting the other or actually oppressing another dog.

The reason your girls probably act up more when you are all in the same room is they are vying for top dog status for you and your husband's attentions, in competition with the other and tensing up as the situation intensifies.

Your cue to step up and stop the situation is the first moment you sense bad energy or the possibility of some mental processes going on in one or more of your dogs. They are so easy to read it is silly. At first, you can't move before the fact - but you can get up and stop the fight once it begins, separate the dogs from one another as you give them the "leave it" or "back off" command, stand them down, back them off and stand there until they do soften, turn away and leave the area and you do, too.

From then on, your closely monitoring them will alert you the moment one of them begins to give a sign trouble is brewing. Not every fight is telegraphed by a sudden look at the other dog, the flicker of an ear, tightened lips, tail hike, posturing, intent eyes, still body, but most are. Just getting too close can be an affront to another dog. If you are into dog body language and interactions, you read their actions like a book and that's your cue to stop the dog's mental process of "dominate" or "attack" by your sudden glare at them, pointing, telling her to "leave it"(which your dog has already been trained to do every time as you've been teaching them obedience - no questions asked) as you get up to enforce the behavior you want. And your dog soon knows why you are getting up from your chair!

You are not without all kinds of ability to know what is about to happen with feuding dogs most of the time and only occasionally will one dog suddenly attack another without giving off some sort of body signal or too quiet, stealthy energy. That's the moment you interfere, back them down and redirect their interest to something else. The other dog will recognize you just kept her safe - you did. She'll come to respect you for that. So will the admonished one.

Believe me, if you keep at it - catching them in the act of becoming too sentient to the other dog and stop it there, they will begin - over several times of it happening - that you are always on the job when they are out together in the same area with you and that you are not going to allow the attacker to make the rules for the other pack members - you are. They will begin to sense they have a strong, firm pack member who is there to set rules, protect even the weaker members and eventually your little aggressor will give in to your will - if you are consistent, persistent and don't think you can't do it.

Be supremely confident and tell yourself you are smarter and quicker-witted than your dog and know what's best for her and can ALWAYS out-think her and what she's about to do. You did it just last night when you called her off "strutting"! You can make most dogs do just about anything you want of them if you put enough confidence, study, determination, love, gentleness and persistence into it, never letting even one slip up get by you during the re-training process. But you always have to be more determined than they are - and they have to know that - to succeed with changing a dog's willful, instinctive ways.

As a training session to show your little willful fighters they are under your control, have them sit/stay on couches or chairs or in the living room for increasing periods of time - up to five minutes. Make a fun game of it, keep if happy and make them want to play the game for the great rewards. Then, once they have that down pat, make them stay off in the bedroom for a short period of time after you walk out and leave them until a full 60 seconds are up. If someone breaks out, put her back in the sit/stay position, leave the room and count off your time limit until both can achieve it together. Keep these training sessions quick, short, frequent at first until they can both stay for 10 seconds, then 15, etc.

Celebration praise, happy smiles, "good girl", generous treat rewards and good, positive feedback when they do what you asked and stay put will then show them that controlling their impulses and doing what you ask of them, though it may be hard on them for a while, is well worth it in the end when you party together with them after the "release" command is given and show your genuine pride in their accomplishment of understanding your communication and self-control. Pack leaders in the wild do these kinds of thing to reinforce their leadership roles and the pack complies, knowing they must stay put until the leader releases them and are under control of a strong, firm, smart leader who will always keep them each safe as long as they follow directions.

Little training exercises like this will teach your dogs that you set the rules, you teach them what you expect and want, are fun, generous in your pride and praise when they do it and by this process, they learn that obeying your words and commands brings them their best life. Once a dog gets that lesson, he'll give you few problems from then on and is always eager to find ways to do what you want to make you prouder and prouder of him.

[Zoey Zendaya]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I'd cut her some slack as she adjusts to a new baby in the family - one who is likely coo'd over and cuddled more than she'd like and maybe is raising some jealous feelings she needs time to adjust to. She's probably unsure what the baby might do next, which is what's likely behind the lunging - her way of telling the little one to keep her distance as stare's/glares rarely work on puppies - it takes actual stopping them in their tracks to usually corral them as adult dogs quickly learn. Even momma dogs have troubles keeping puppies under control.

Should she ever seem to be stalking the puppy as prey, bare her teeth more than a split second or growl deeply and threateningly - the truly serious threats anyone recognizes for what they are - or her body goes silently stiff, still and tense, should she nip or bite at the little one, then you should glare at her, raise your arm and point at her, stand up, usually not saying anything as sudden or scary sound can provoke an attack during a very, very tense, hair-trigger moment, still locking eyes with her and pointing at her, confidently move into her space, backing her off and standing her down while still staring/pointing at her until she softens, gives up and leaves the area, clearly showing her that type of more aggressive behavior against the baby won't be tolerated by her pack leader. Once she backs off, you walk away and resume your seat and show your older dog that's how she relieves the tension of the moment - softening, giving in to your boundaries quickly and moving away from the baby. A few minutes later, if she's still calm and staying put, a nice pat or tickle and a little smile will reassure her that she's still your baby, too.

The next time, only allow her to get within 4 feet of the baby if her body's not wiggly, eyes/ears soft and everything about her is showing she wants to be friends. If she tries to get closer, point, stand up and back her off in a matter-of-fact, teaching-type manner, requiring that she give the baby some space for now, while she's adjusting to its presence in her world. Also shoo the baby back to her permitted area, saying "back, back, back" or "go to your play spot" with your outstretched hands as you bend down and corral her back to the center of the room, beginning to teach her some early boundaries as well.

Just be sure to always monitor all adult dogs around puppies until the pups are old and savvy enough to outrun, hide or fight back should the older dog get pushed to its limits of tolerance during the transition period of a newbie joining the family. Remember, to most dogs a new puppy is an interloper at first and a spastic one at that, likely to do almost anything. But given some time and boundaries, usually even the most hostile-acting older dog will usually soften up in time and begin to accept the baby as a young pack member. The moment you see her beginning to act to protect the baby, you'll know she's accepted it as a full pack member, though pack members still have their disagreements and social bumps from time-to-time.

I can be grateful she isn't showing aggression with bared teeth and growling . Her dominance really had me thrown. Haven't ever seen that side of her. I play with both at the same time . Zoey is ball obsessed so I'm tossing it up the half stairs at her, she chases it and rolls it back down ...plop ..ploppity ..plop...at the same time I have the puppy in its space playing at the foot of the stairs to mid room.Every now and then Zoey will race down to stick her face in hers ( with my hand always in between) ever leary of a lunge nip. At least she isn't AS focused on her ....

[Zoey Zendaya]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Well, that theory of dogs feeding off the energy of the pack leader & others in the pack far predated Cesar or any other single dog handler - has been known for centuries, as you can tell from talking to old-timer dog handlers who learned from their grandfathers, father, mom's, etc., who said they learned it from their elders and so on. Plus, reading old books shows you anyone who spends much time around bunches of dogs soon figures out most of what they are all about and what triggers which actions/reactions. Cesar has nothing original in dog handling, he just televises his ideas and ways, some of which may be harmful to some dogs' psyches.

I always let my dogs work out hierarchical pack issues unless one is hurting the other or actually oppressing another dog.

The reason your girls probably act up more when you are all in the same room is they are vying for top dog status for you and your husband's attentions, in competition with the other and tensing up as the situation intensifies.

Your cue to step up and stop the situation is the first moment you sense bad energy or the possibility of some mental processes going on in one or more of your dogs. They are so easy to read it is silly. At first, you can't move before the fact - but you can get up and stop the fight once it begins, separate the dogs from one another as you give them the "leave it" or "back off" command, stand them down, back them off and stand there until they do soften, turn away and leave the area and you do, too.

From then on, your closely monitoring them will alert you the moment one of them begins to give a sign trouble is brewing. Not every fight is telegraphed by a sudden look at the other dog, the flicker of an ear, tightened lips, tail hike, posturing, intent eyes, still body, but most are. Just getting too close can be an affront to another dog. If you are into dog body language and interactions, you read their actions like a book and that's your cue to stop the dog's mental process of "dominate" or "attack" by your sudden glare at them, pointing, telling her to "leave it"(which your dog has already been trained to do every time as you've been teaching them obedience - no questions asked) as you get up to enforce the behavior you want. And your dog soon knows why you are getting up from your chair!

You are not without all kinds of ability to know what is about to happen with feuding dogs most of the time and only occasionally will one dog suddenly attack another without giving off some sort of body signal or too quiet, stealthy energy. That's the moment you interfere, back them down and redirect their interest to something else. The other dog will recognize you just kept her safe - you did. She'll come to respect you for that. So will the admonished one.

Believe me, if you keep at it - catching them in the act of becoming too sentient to the other dog and stop it there, they will begin - over several times of it happening - that you are always on the job when they are out together in the same area with you and that you are not going to allow the attacker to make the rules for the other pack members - you are. They will begin to sense they have a strong, firm pack member who is there to set rules, protect even the weaker members and eventually your little aggressor will give in to your will - if you are consistent, persistent and don't think you can't do it.

Be supremely confident and tell yourself you are smarter and quicker-witted than your dog and know what's best for her and can ALWAYS out-think her and what she's about to do. You did it just last night when you called her off "strutting"! You can make most dogs do just about anything you want of them if you put enough confidence, study, determination, love, gentleness and persistence into it, never letting even one slip up get by you during the re-training process. But you always have to be more determined than they are - and they have to know that - to succeed with changing a dog's willful, instinctive ways.

As a training session to show your little willful fighters they are under your control, have them sit/stay on couches or chairs or in the living room for increasing periods of time - up to five minutes. Make a fun game of it, keep if happy and make them want to play the game for the great rewards. Then, once they have that down pat, make them stay off in the bedroom for a short period of time after you walk out and leave them until a full 60 seconds are up. If someone breaks out, put her back in the sit/stay position, leave the room and count off your time limit until both can achieve it together. Keep these training sessions quick, short, frequent at first until they can both stay for 10 seconds, then 15, etc.

Celebration praise, happy smiles, "good girl", generous treat rewards and good, positive feedback when they do what you asked and stay put will then show them that controlling their impulses and doing what you ask of them, though it may be hard on them for a while, is well worth it in the end when you party together with them after the "release" command is given and show your genuine pride in their accomplishment of understanding your communication and self-control. Pack leaders in the wild do these kinds of thing to reinforce their leadership roles and the pack complies, knowing they must stay put until the leader releases them and are under control of a strong, firm, smart leader who will always keep them each safe as long as they follow directions.

Little training exercises like this will teach your dogs that you set the rules, you teach them what you expect and want, are fun, generous in your pride and praise when they do it and by this process, they learn that obeying your words and commands brings them their best life. Once a dog gets that lesson, he'll give you few problems from then on and is always eager to find ways to do what you want to make you prouder and prouder of him.

[dawn27]

Shelly, we had a similar situation with Ruby and Brandi and what I figured is that with Brandi's illness Ruby was trying to establish the pack leader role and take out the weaker/sicker of the pack. Fighting was something that we struggled with for years and didn't really put two and two together until after finding out that Brandi was sick. I don't have all the fact of Canine Lupus but I strongly believe that the illness was there and lay dormant. I have tried to research that but come up with nothing but from the behavior of Ruby toward Brandi I feel that it is highly possible.

So Please get your girls checked out if you haven't already.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Well, that theory of dogs feeding off the energy of the pack leader & others in the pack far predated Cesar or any other single dog handler - has been known for centuries, as you can tell from talking to old-timer dog handlers who learned from their grandfathers, father, mom's, etc., who said they learned it from their elders and so on. Plus, reading old books shows you anyone who spends much time around bunches of dogs soon figures out most of what they are all about and what triggers which actions/reactions. Cesar has nothing original in dog handling, he just televises his ideas and ways, some of which may be harmful to some dogs' psyches.

I always let my dogs work out hierarchical pack issues unless one is hurting the other or actually oppressing another.

Really, I wasn't suggesting that this theory was Ceasers alone. Where the theory came from is irrelevant. I obviously know these are observations made since the beginning of time. It was the theory in general I was after and I got my answer. Thank's again for the input.

[Cha Cha]

Originally Posted by dawn27

Shelly, we had a similar situation with Ruby and Brandi and what I figured is that with Brandi's illness Ruby was trying to establish the pack leader role and take out the weaker/sicker of the pack. Fighting was something that we struggled with for years and didn't really put two and two together until after finding out that Brandi was sick. I don't have all the fact of Canine Lupus but I strongly believe that the illness was there and lay dormant. I have tried to research that but come up with nothing but from the behavior of Ruby toward Brandi I feel that it is highly possible.

So Please get your girls checked out if you haven't already.

Thanks Dawn. I am definitely taking them in. They are due for check ups anyways. I will keep this in mind, but I am also especially interested In a thyroid test for Moka. I read a study that even with normal blood tests, low levels of thyroid medication can help in situations where a new bad behavior has developed so I am anxious to discuss this with my vet. Heck, maybe it was here that I read that.

[Cha Cha]

Thank you to everyone for the input. I have learned a lot and I think I can take something from every reply to help. I am confident we can overcome this and I can help my girls get back to loving each other and this thread has helped so much. Thank you all.