Obedience Class

[yorkietalkjilly]

Just saw your thread & wonder myself what about using a choke collar squares with positive reinforcement. Parenthetically, does he not know about CT & such? Sounds like that trainer is either new at it or just behind the times. When the sold the program, you should have been informed up front of his training methods, since the choke collar training is so controversial.

[alaskayorkie]

I had the same experience when I started out in obedience 7 years ago with Eddie. The biggest training center in the city advocated choke chains or pronged collars. They even specifically said Eddie should be on a pronged collar because he was pulling.

I was new to training, but it just didn't seem right. I switched schools, and they allowed me to use a harness and emphasized treat or toy rewards. His improvement was immediate.

I do understand the idea behind corrections, but for my little dog, it didn't work. My feeling is many little dogs are naturally afraid of things, and you have to do everything you can to make training fun -- and corrections aren't fun.

That said, I do let my dogs self-correct when walking on harness. If they're pulling, I'll stop and they'll get a self-induced tug on the harness. That's all I've needed.

Interestingly, or sadly I should say, the AKC requires dogs to wear a neck collar when taking the Canine Good Citizen test. To use a harness, you have to get a note from your vet saying the dog has a "severe" neck injury and would be harmed if using a neck collar. Absolutely ridiculous in this day and age. My dogs have passed the Delta Society therapy dog test on harnesses, but I refuse to test them in a neck collar for the much-easier Canine Good Citizen test.

Good luck. I hope you can find a new trainer that uses more modern techniques.

[salazark]

Originally Posted by alaskayorkie

I had the same experience when I started out in obedience 7 years ago with Eddie. The biggest training center in the city advocated choke chains or pronged collars. They even specifically said Eddie should be on a pronged collar because he was pulling.

I was new to training, but it just didn't seem right. I switched schools, and they allowed me to use a harness and emphasized treat or toy rewards. His improvement was immediate.

I do understand the idea behind corrections, but for my little dog, it didn't work. My feeling is many little dogs are naturally afraid of things, and you have to do everything you can to make training fun -- and corrections aren't fun.

That said, I do let my dogs self-correct when walking on harness. If they're pulling, I'll stop and they'll get a self-induced tug on the harness. That's all I've needed.

Interestingly, or sadly I should say, the AKC requires dogs to wear a neck collar when taking the Canine Good Citizen test. To use a harness, you have to get a note from your vet saying the dog has a "severe" neck injury and would be harmed if using a neck collar. Absolutely ridiculous in this day and age. My dogs have passed the Delta Society therapy dog test on harnesses, but I refuse to test them in a neck collar for the much-easier Canine Good Citizen test.

Good luck. I hope you can find a new trainer that uses more modern techniques.

I think AKC has changed on that. Sadie took the CGC recently wearing an easy walk harness. Delta used to not allow it and they do now also. This is what AKC says:

Equipment in Test
All tests must be performed on leash. For collars, dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars. Martingale style (sometimes called "limited slip") collars are permitted. Special training collars such as pinch collars, head halters, and electronic collars are not permitted in the CGC test.

As of November 4, 2010, body harnesses may be used in the CGC test. The evaluator should check to make sure the harness is not of a type that completely restricts the dog's movement such that it could not pull or jump up if it tried.

We recognize that special training equipment such as head collars and no-jump harnesses may be very useful tools for beginning dog trainers, however, we feel that dogs are ready to take the CGC test at the point at which they are transitioned to equipment that allows the evaluator to see that the dog has been trained.

The evaluator supplies a 20-foot lead for the test. The owner/handler should bring the dog's brush or comb to the test.

[alaskayorkie]

Originally Posted by salazark

I think AKC has changed on that. Sadie took the CGC recently wearing an easy walk harness. Delta used to not allow it and they do now also. This is what AKC says:

Equipment in Test
All tests must be performed on leash. For collars, dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars. Martingale style (sometimes called "limited slip") collars are permitted. Special training collars such as pinch collars, head halters, and electronic collars are not permitted in the CGC test.

As of November 4, 2010, body harnesses may be used in the CGC test. The evaluator should check to make sure the harness is not of a type that completely restricts the dog's movement such that it could not pull or jump up if it tried.

We recognize that special training equipment such as head collars and no-jump harnesses may be very useful tools for beginning dog trainers, however, we feel that dogs are ready to take the CGC test at the point at which they are transitioned to equipment that allows the evaluator to see that the dog has been trained.

The evaluator supplies a 20-foot lead for the test. The owner/handler should bring the dog's brush or comb to the test.

THAT'S AWESOME NEWS! Thanks! I sent a letter of complaint to them several years ago and never heard back.

My feeling was that a CGC dog should be tested in whatever collar or harness they're wearing in everyday life. If I never use a leash on a collar, what good would it be to get CGC certification on a collar? The dog may behave differently in real life.

Thanks for sharing!

[yorkiemini]

Cali went all the way through her obedience cgc and therapy program in her buddy belt. No collar for her. I have been in obedience for years and most teachers are not familiar with toy dogs. A 100 pound dog may need a choke collar at the beginning ( and they can be used humanly) because it may take that to keep them in. On troll and the other dogs safe. Once the bog dogs calm down they do well with regular collars or harnesses. If you show in the AKC ring you must use a collar -I have a small collar that I made for her that does not tighten for that.

Don't be intimidated by the big dog trainers. Just learn what your dogs needs to do and do it with the harness. Your dog is smart enough to learn it all, and they do not need to be man-handled to get it.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkiemini

Cali went all the way through her obedience cgc and therapy program in her buddy belt. No collar for her. I have been in obedience for years and most teachers are not familiar with toy dogs. A 100 pound dog may need a choke collar at the beginning ( and they can be used humanly) because it may take that to keep them in. On troll and the other dogs safe. Once the bog dogs calm down they do well with regular collars or harnesses. If you show in the AKC ring you must use a collar -I have a small collar that I made for her that does not tighten for that.

Don't be intimidated by the big dog trainers. Just learn what your dogs needs to do and do it with the harness. Your dog is smart enough to learn it all, and they do not need to be man-handled to get it.

Agree wholeheartedly. There is a way to use choke collars safely. Also the notorious in some circles "pinch" collars. I have no need of either for a 6lb Yorkie. For my big breed that is a different kettle of fish.

Magic was trained on both a "pinch collar" and choke and regular collar. Zoey our other big girl required only a few lessons on the choke collar - she is not a puller. But the "correct" corrections taught young enable you to take them with you over the lifetime of your dog.

There are some circumstances even today with a CDX trained boy, I will double collar him. It is for both of our security. A rough rule of thumb is multiply a dogs weight by 3 to get an idea of the strength of a dog compared to a human. So a 120lb boy is equivalent to a 360 lb male.
I've yet to have to use it; but a situational example is; a crowded ferry boat, with lots of ppl and dogs. You bet I want any advantage I "might" need if my boy decides to respond to another dog's aggressive stare.

Another situation at a crowded dog show, all working breeds are together waiting to go into the ring. The choke collar is what is used for these breeds to be shown in and for a mighty good reason. A dog lunges for yours - you quickly snap up on your choke collar and turn your dog's head away. Hopefully the other handler has gotten their dog under control.
I have seen two dog fights at a show - and believe me, it is not a pretty sight.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I thought the OP's dog were Yorkie's that the choke collars were being suggested for - didn't know they were big dogs. I do agree with the humane & proper use of the choke collar on a big, powerful untrained dog if one can't control it any other way at first. But never on Yorkies or toy dogs or even medium-sized dogs.

[linz06]

Yes, our dogs are small. One is a yorkie cross and one is a maltese cross, both under 10 lbs. The next smallest dog is about a 20 lb beagle. The others are large-breeds.

Our next class is tonight. Here's to hoping they keep learning with their harnesses

[salazark]

I have no doubt that they can learn in their harness, hopefully your trainer will be just as adaptable!

I'll be thinking about you this evening!

[salazark]

How did it go last night?

[linz06]

It went great! When we walked in, the trainer came to me and said he met someone online last week who also does not use "correction collars" on his dogs, and has trained them well with harnesses. He said what he does is attach little bells where the leash attaches to the harness, so he can "correct" the dog by jiggling the leash and making the bells ring. I told him that is definitely something we would try! For now though, they have been doing really well without us needing to tell them they're doing something wrong.

I am very happy to report that our dogs are not the worst in the class!!!

Yesterday we kept working on heel, and they both are doing very well, except the part where they have to sit when we stop lol. We are constantly pushing their little bums down. After they are in position though, they stay well and we are able to walk around them both while sitting or laying down. I am very proud of my little munchkins!!!

[salazark]

Aww - I'm glad to hear it. It sounds like they are well on their way to being the stars of the class!! Yorkies have their own mind for sure, but I've found them to be quite trainable. That brain they have works to our advantage sometimes and I've also found that they really do want to please us - at least if we have treats!

[scopeland]

I went to beginner obedience this week (without our dog) and was shown the "acceptable" training collars - none of which were harnesses. I voiced my concern about the trachea and the trainer said I just needed to get a regular buckle collar for him. I also purchased a gentle leader (highly recommended by my sister) and will take that to class (even though it wasn't one of the acceptable ones). Hoping for a positive experience as my Buddy is a real puller!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by scopeland

I went to beginner obedience this week (without our dog) and was shown the "acceptable" training collars - none of which were harnesses. I voiced my concern about the trachea and the trainer said I just needed to get a regular buckle collar for him. I also purchased a gentle leader (highly recommended by my sister) and will take that to class (even though it wasn't one of the acceptable ones). Hoping for a positive experience as my Buddy is a real puller!

Seriously stick to your guns here. Just say Yorkies are prone to CT - collapsing trachea, and until my boy learns NOT to Pull, I will not use a buckle collar, but my gentle leader. Just say to him, Hopefully you(meaning the trainer) can work with this.

[linz06]

Agreed - stick to your guns. I was so glad we did! With Kash, we just used a regular harness and that was good enough. When I trained Layla years ago, she used a regular harness as well.

We finished our classes a couple of weeks ago. We had to do a test at the end, and Kash passed! He normally didn't listen well but that last class he did. And somehow, Lucy failed! She was the perfect little student for all the classes until that test lol! Oh well, they both got certificates of completion that are now on our fridge They really did come a long way!