Drawing Blood!

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by bibby4141

Thanks for the replys. She has now gotten worse. Now alot of times when we just attempt to pick her up she starts growling and biting. We'll try some more of the sugestions, the growling at her does'nt seem to be working very well as sometimes she has already bitten us before we can get out a GROWL.

When she growls and bites at you, do you still pick her up? If you are reacting and jumping back, she is controlling you. You really do need to get this under control now! Do not allow her to boss you around. It is not fun to be bitten, but I have taken a bite from a pup just so as not to let them know I am afraid.

As for bath time, I would muzzle her for now. Let her know that you are going to bathe her no matter what. Praise her afterwards, but I don't believe in giving treats for what is expected behavior. My groomer taught me that...and I she has a great relationship with the pups she grooms. One of my difficult ones does very well with her and she does not give treats. She is very matter of fact when grooming them and lets them know she is in control.

The other thing that I do when a pup does something that is simply not acceptable is to put the in time out. I put them in a room by themselves for just a few minutes....and I continue to do that as soon as they exhibit that behavior again. You might try that with the biting. Pick her up immediately and remove her from your presence. Let her know that she must act appropriately to be with you. They are just like toddlers...as the link that Ringo posted suggested.

[111lily222]

Sounds to me she is trying to be the alpha. I would put her in your arms in a cradle position close to our waste walk around the house like that and outside for 30 seconds a few times a day, it puts them in a submissive state. The vet suggested that with Louie and it worked. Also the vet said no tug of war play unless you win, We just stop playing tug of war with him instead played ball ect. Also you can pick her up, and hold her arm length away from your body for 13 seconds, at first she will wiggle than calm down and sumit. It work with Louie in about 3 days. Good luck.

[ladyjane]

I am curious....what methods have you used for housebreaking her?

[bibby4141]

Thank you all. I would say yes she is trying to be "Alpha". So, put her in a room away from us "time-out"? I've held her down for 3-5min a few times while still being bitten, that does't seem to work. Maybe time away will. I'm guessing it's a tiny muzzle to fit her. That should be real fun.Must buy one and try that at bath time. As far as housebreaking we take her out first thing in the morning and she sometimes pees outside (mostly sniffs around and looks on the ground) and will then come in and crap on the floor. She will use pee pads about 85% of the time and poop on them about 50%. She almost always uses them when she is in her play pen.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by bibby4141

Thank you all. I would say yes she is trying to be "Alpha". So, put her in a room away from us "time-out"? I've held her down for 3-5min a few times while still being bitten, that does't seem to work. Maybe time away will. I'm guessing it's a tiny muzzle to fit her. That should be real fun.Must buy one and try that at bath time. As far as housebreaking we take her out first thing in the morning and she sometimes pees outside (mostly sniffs around and looks on the ground) and will then come in and crap on the floor. She will use pee pads about 85% of the time and poop on them about 50%. She almost always uses them when she is in her play pen.

The trick to successfully training a pup is to always use positive reinforcement!

IMO growling at a pup and/or holding it down is doing nothing but intimidating it. All that does imho is frighten a pup. The only defense a pup has is its teeth! I don't necessarily buy into the alpha thing...yes, you do need to show your pup you are in control; but not by intimidation I know there are lots of people who say it is ok..I say no. Get yourself a book by Tamar Gellar.... here is her website where you can read about her. She is in to positive dog training: The Loved World Foundation by Tamar Geller - Home

Just for now, I would use a muzzle for bathing if she bites so that she cannot hurt you. Just be very gentle and reassuring. She will soon understand that a bath is not going to hurt her. To get the right size muzzle, speak with your vet. Mine ordered a tiny one for one of my fosters who bites. He now is starting to do well without the muzzle when I trim his hair...but I used it for a long time.

[ladyjane]

Oh, and yes, time out can be very effective if you are consistent. Don't do it for long periods....just a few minutes will do. Pick her up as soon as she exhibits unacceptable behaviors and put her in a room away from you. Bring her back after a few minutes and when she behaves well, load her up with heaps of good girl praises!

[kjc]

Originally Posted by bibby4141

Thank you all. I would say yes she is trying to be "Alpha". So, put her in a room away from us "time-out"? I've held her down for 3-5min a few times while still being bitten, that does't seem to work. Maybe time away will. I'm guessing it's a tiny muzzle to fit her. That should be real fun.Must buy one and try that at bath time. As far as housebreaking we take her out first thing in the morning and she sometimes pees outside (mostly sniffs around and looks on the ground) and will then come in and crap on the floor. She will use pee pads about 85% of the time and poop on them about 50%. She almost always uses them when she is in her play pen.

This sounds like you're describing an 'Alpha Roll'? If yes, this most definitely should never be done to a puppy, it will never work. I have heard where puppies do get 'mean' from this treatment, or totally regress and hide from the owners. She is not trusting you at this point, you have to develope a relationship of mutual trust and respect with her. To start, never put her on her side or her back and hold her down.

I would buy a cheap halter and leash and put it on her for bath time and play time. That way you have a way of protecting yourself from her biting, by just holding the leash (and her) away from you. No tugging or jerking on it either, as some do as a reprimand. Just gently grab it and hold her away till she stops trying to bite, maybe say 'Ah, ah' or 'No, no' at the same time (just to let her know what she is trying to do is wrong), then begin where you left off. Be gentle and loving with her at all times, she is just a baby.

I don't know how long this will take, but you need to be really consistent and patient as you need to reverse the damage done by rolling and holding her down.

The 'Alpha Roll' or whatever people want to call it, was originally developed as a last ditch effort by dog trainers for use by other dog trainers to be used only on adult dogs with severe aggression issues, who were deemed untrainable by any other methods, all of which had been previously tried on the dog. If the 'Alpha Roll' did not work on them, they would be PTS. It is a last ditch method because it doesn't always work, and it can make a dog worse. It is only done one time, when it's done right, and if it works it will never need to be repeated again

If you try to give her a belly rub, be sure not to roll her over... she will have to roll over herself, or she may see it as a punishment and think you are going to hold her down again.

When you go to pick her up and she growls... she's thinking you are going to try to hold her down. Try calling to her to get her standing before you reach for her. If she still growls, make light of it. "Oh no, you're not growling at your Mommie! Well, I've never heard of such a thing! You silly girl... " and laugh a little. (again sounds crazy... but laughing will relax you... and her)

Please keep updating.... it is very important to follow your progress with her.... If you do decide to get a professional trainer... you need to tell him/her that you tried to do an 'Alpha Roll' on her a few times as this is the cause for her aggression, and needs to be considered when accessing her behavior and working with her.

No muzzle, it will just make her angrier, and keep her out until she poops and treat her and praise her tons....

[BanditSocks2]

It does sound like she's trying to be the alpha, but have to taken her to the vet to rule out a pain of some sort?

Otherwise, since the behavior is so severe, I'd consult a behavior specialist.

[ladyjane]

Muzzles do NOT make dogs angry!! I live with a fear biter and he is muzzled at times that procedures must be done by myself or the vet and when it comes off he is just fine!

I also spend a lot of time at the groomer. With a pup that has major issues getting nails trimmed, she often will put a muzzle on them. They stand and let it be done and when the muzzle comes off, it is like nothing ever happened.

First of all, we are not talking about angry dogs. We are talking about dogs that have fears. It would be very difficult for me to believe that this puppy is angry. For NOW, I suggest a muzzle at bath time to protect yourself. You won't have to use it forever! With my biter, I am using the muzzle less and less....but he knows when I put it on that I am not going to hurt him!

[gemy]

Here I agree muzzles do not make dogs angry or dangerous.

My suggestion is to take her to obedience class. She is 4mths old? If so good time to start puppy obedience. Here you learn how to handle your dog, and under the eyes of an experienced trainer. And make sure it is an experienced trainer before you sign up for class; ask questions, ask to observe a couple of classes so that you get a feel for the teacher and the class dynamics there.

Next, you don't mention how often you walk her? Good healthy exercise is so important for not only their physical health but their mental health as well. Take her out as often as you can in a day; even if only 10 minute walks, or 2 20-30 minute walks.

[kjc]

Oh, I agree, muzzles don't make dogs angry, but this is a young puppy that has experienced being rolled and held down numerous times. Muzzles are a form of control, and this pup needs to learn that control can be achieved without it being forced on her.

To develop trust, it will happen quicker without the muzzle. I am also worried that the OP may get bit trying to put a muzzle on this pup.

It won't take too long hopefully to turn this pup's behavior around, but I honestly think a muzzle may do more harm than good, considering what the pup has been through. I'd even go to every two weeks for baths (for a month or two), and with regards to grooming there is nothing that needs to be done that couldn't be let go for a month, including her nails. A gentle brushing with minimal restraint would do it.

It is not normal for a 4 month old puppy to be vicious either. Something caused her to become that way, and I (IMVHO) would proceed with great caution handling this pup so as not to inflict further injury to her mind. She is still young enough that her behavior can be reversed.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by kjc

No muzzle, it will just make her angrier, and keep her out until she poops and treat her and praise her tons....

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with a muzzle making a dog angrier. Pebbles is a biter and when she goes to the vet she is muzzled. It comes off and she it totally fine.

My thoughts are that this puppy was taken from its mother way too soon and now has issues with biting. This is that same as Pebbles. You really need to get this behavior in check and not by making her submissive. That will NEVER work.

I have used the leash and harness on Pebbles and it really helped when she was a puppy. It even worked well for bath time too. She is very good with grooming but that has not always been the case for her. It took me working with her every day for a few minutes at a time to get her to accept to be bathed and groomed.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by kjc

Oh, I agree, muzzles don't make dogs angry, but this is a young puppy that has experienced being rolled and held down numerous times. Muzzles are a form of control, and this pup needs to learn that control can be achieved without it being forced on her.

To develop trust, it will happen quicker without the muzzle. I am also worried that the OP may get bit trying to put a muzzle on this pup.

It won't take too long hopefully to turn this pup's behavior around, but I honestly think a muzzle may do more harm than good, considering what the pup has been through. I'd even go to every two weeks for baths (for a month or two), and with regards to grooming there is nothing that needs to be done that couldn't be let go for a month, including her nails. A gentle brushing with minimal restraint would do it.

It is not normal for a 4 month old puppy to be vicious either. Something caused her to become that way, and I (IMVHO) would proceed with great caution handling this pup so as not to inflict further injury to her mind. She is still young enough that her behavior can be reversed.

I again disagree with you. That muzzle is needed so she cannot bite the OP. Period. Then, with the muzzle on she can desensitize her to the things that provoke the biting. And, yes...you did say it would make her "angrier". I respectfully disagree.

I have never been bitten putting a muzzle on a pup. It is very simple to do...you simply put it on quickly. I usually start from under or behind and have never been bitten putting one on. There is no risk of injury to a pup doing that!

I am not talking about hog tying a pup here....I am saying to protect yourself while helping the pup understand she is not being harmed.

I totally agree her behavior can be modified. I have an adult pup (fear biter) that came to me as an adult, terribly traumatized...he is a work in progress, but is coming along nicely. In his case it has taken years, but he had more history than this pup.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with a muzzle making a dog angrier. Pebbles is a biter and when she goes to the vet she is muzzled. It comes off and she it totally fine.

My thoughts are that this puppy was taken from its mother way too soon and now has issues with biting. This is that same as Pebbles. You really need to get this behavior in check and not by making her submissive. That will NEVER work.

I have used the leash and harness on Pebbles and it really helped when she was a puppy. It even worked well for bath time too. She is very good with grooming but that has not always been the case for her. It took me working with her every day for a few minutes at a time to get her to accept to be bathed and groomed.

this puppy was taken from its mother way too soon and now has issues with biting which the OP tried to correct using the 'Alpha Roll'.
This has made the puppy worse.

There are a few other threads where people have Alpha Rolled puppies, and this puppy is reacting the same way. So it's a bit more involved now than just '8 week old puppy biting' syndrome.

[Ellie May]

The most important consideration here is that the owner is safe. The best way to insure this is using a muzzle during periods where biting is likely. I can't and won't watch an owner get bit trying other methods. The dog's mouth needs to be closed for the protection of the owner. And for longer periods, a basket muzzle can be used. Any other way and the dog has the chance to snap.