When Playing Becomes Fighting

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

It sounds like Cooper guards "high value" objects, like food and bully sticks.

I would just separate them when they eat, and keep them separated if you give them bully sticks. You may want to consider not giving bully sticks at all if/until this behavior stops.

Separating them during those times may fix the problem right there. Also, I would start interrupting their play regularly so they get used to it. You can use the "Settle" command. You can try keeping a can of pennies on hand as well, or a cup of ice water.

A few things on Drop It:

- You can try teaching "Take It" first, and then you get Drop It for free when you give him a treat. Teach him to take his ball, then he has to drop it for food.

- You can simply increase the value of the treat you will give him for Drop It. Try tiny bits of steak, for instance.

- For the ball, don't reward him for hanging on to it. For most dogs, an ideal game of fetch is: you throw the ball, he chases it; you chase after him, he runs away; you and he have a tug fight over the ball; and eventually when he's ready, you throw the ball for him again. You need to teach him that if he doesn't Drop It, you don't throw it again.

- All that being said, if he really wants something, he may not Drop It, so I would consider management and other strategies to prevent fights.

Max has been confined for 2 weeks because he hurt his leg, so their play is both very supervised and limited. Cooper is "coin can trained", but I wanted to try reward training with him. The other issue with the coins is that I cannot use that to separate them. It puts Cooper into a complete state of fear and does nothing for Max, so therefore I'm only punishing Cooper. It's not really fair.

Also because Max just hurt his leg I'm using bully sticks to keep them independent, which seems to be working except for the occasional fight.

Cooper's ball game is retrieving it and dropping it an inch from your hand while still keeping his chin on the ball. He's now trained to "back up" and he backs up so you can get the ball. It's a race to the ball. I feel that is the game. He enjoys it, so we play it.

I will work a little harder with the training. I've been trying new techniques for a couple of days.

[lynnelily]

this is a very interesting helpful thread. I'm learning a lot of good things I can use with my girls. They listen when I say time out when they are getting to ruff. But we need more work on the drop it.

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by lynnelily

this is a very interesting helpful thread. I'm learning a lot of good things I can use with my girls. They listen when I say time out when they are getting to ruff. But we need more work on the drop it.

I'm learning a lot too. The drop it will have to wait so I can work on the fighting. I've been protecting Max because he's a puppy and smaller than Cooper but now tonight I'm really seeing that he is instigating Cooper. Tonight Cooper was chewing on a bone and Max walked right over to him and interrupted him. I was able to say NO to Max instead of telling Cooper to behave.

[kdhawks]

I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with this! I know how frustrating it can be. Levi is kind of like Max; we always call him "the instigator." He is playful all the time and doesn't really understand that every person or dog he meets doesn't want to play with him all day long. My younger brother's dog, whom we live with, is so patient and awesome with Levi...but we've definitely come across other dogs who are more aggressive with him.

I agree with keeping them separated while they eat. My older brother has one very food-aggressive dog, so they feed all of their dogs exclusively in their crates so they are eating at the same time, but separately. I believe they get long-lasting treats (like bully sticks) only in their crates as well.

As far as the "drop it" command - I, for some reason, could not get Levi respond to the words "drop it." We switched to the word "out," and that has worked much better for us (which really doesn't make sense, as the tactics are the same). We started by trading the "dropped" item for a treat. He's also learned that when I say out, I refuse to tug on a toy/chew/item he isn't supposed to have, so it becomes less of a game to him. Once I start with the "out," he either spits it out immediately, or calms down and holds it (and apparently just waits for me to offer him a treat...crazy little monster ).

Sorry this ended up so long!!! I hope things get better! I know Cooper and Max really do love each other!

[QuickSilver]

Something also to keep in mind is that older dogs generally take it upon themselves to teach puppies their p's and q's. Maybe that's what's happening here to a certain extent, but it's concerning that Cooper is actually locking on. If Cooper just air snapped, I don't think that would be a big deal.

Older males sometimes tend to bully male puppies also.

[QuickSilver]

If you want to use more positive techniques, you can have them "Settle" while playing. After a minute or two, walk in between them, have them both sit, and give them a treat. Then you can say "Go Play" to release them.

You'll need to practice this regularly during normal play. If Cooper really gets his dander up, he's going to have a hard time listening to you.

[AllDogBoots]

Thanks everyone. Feeding time is not an issue at all. Starting last night I fed Cooper first and Max sat and waited. I really do think it made Cooper feel better.

They chewed bully sticks last night. Max likes to leave his sometimes and walk up to Cooper and grab his. This is when the problem starts, however I told Max no and redirected him. Cooper felt protected.

There were no issues at all last night.

I'm not sure the "OUT" command will work because Cooper knows that as going outside. I can think of something else though.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

If you want to use more positive techniques, you can have them "Settle" while playing. After a minute or two, walk in between them, have them both sit, and give them a treat. Then you can say "Go Play" to release them.

You'll need to practice this regularly during normal play. If Cooper really gets his dander up, he's going to have a hard time listening to you.

I'll try the Settle command.

Also, I'm not finding this terribly frustrating. I just need some training direction. Cooper never really has been trained, so I'm not sure why I expected things to go perfectly when I brought home another dog. However, I'm still so very pleased with the way they interact except for the occasional fight.

[AllDogBoots]

There has not been a fight since I posted this thread. Thank you everyone. Apparantly it was me who needed the training

[Ringo1]

Glad things are going better. I have to feed Lucy and Ringo separately. Ringo inhales his food and would bully his way over to Lucy's if I allowed it. So, we feed them in separate rooms and just quit worrying about it.

Small, boring bones and treats are no problem; they will trade it back and forth for hours. One will take it from the other and then lay it down; then the other will pick it up and so on and so forth.

For really good treats like bully sticks ~ those have to be eaten in their crates. Because they will fight over those. Lucy has to have Ringo's and then he gets mad and tries to hoard both of them . . . it's just not worth it. Now I save the bully sticks for when they have to go in their crates for some reason.

But Ringo is probably way more dominant than Cooper. Lucy is very submissive so there are few skirmishes. Poor Lucy. But she loves Ringo so I think she is happy???

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Glad things are going better. I have to feed Lucy and Ringo separately. Ringo inhales his food and would bully his way over to Lucy's if I allowed it. So, we feed them in separate rooms and just quit worrying about it.

Small, boring bones and treats are no problem; they will trade it back and forth for hours. One will take it from the other and then lay it down; then the other will pick it up and so on and so forth.

For really good treats like bully sticks ~ those have to be eaten in their crates. Because they will fight over those. Lucy has to have Ringo's and then he gets mad and tries to hoard both of them . . . it's just not worth it. Now I save the bully sticks for when they have to go in their crates for some reason.

But Ringo is probably way more dominant than Cooper. Lucy is very submissive so there are few skirmishes. Poor Lucy. But she loves Ringo so I think she is happy???

Max inhales his food, but I am there at every feeding. When he's done he comes and sits with me and doesn't bother Cooper anymore. But, tonight he went towards Cooper and Cooper turned the corner towards Max and gave him his ugly face snarl. It could have escalated but did not. I redirected them both.

I suppose the bickering between 2 dogs is quite common. I'm starting to pick up better signals of when i think the aggression will start. If Cooper is sitting eating a bully stick and Max walks over to him, it will be a problem. But if Cooper brings the bully to Max and hangs it in his face it's ok. I'm trying to teach Max to give Cooper space and trying to teach Cooper that Max is ok and not to get upset with him. So far I haven't needed to separate them, however I'm always around.

Both of your dogs sound happy. It doesn't seem like Lucy minds all that much. With Max being just a puppy I'm not sure what roll he plays yet but I keep telling Cooper he's the alpha king.

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by AllDogBoots

Max inhales his food, but I am there at every feeding. When he's done he comes and sits with me and doesn't bother Cooper anymore. But, tonight he went towards Cooper and Cooper turned the corner towards Max and gave him his ugly face snarl. It could have escalated but did not. I redirected them both.

I suppose the bickering between 2 dogs is quite common. I'm starting to pick up better signals of when i think the aggression will start. If Cooper is sitting eating a bully stick and Max walks over to him, it will be a problem. But if Cooper brings the bully to Max and hangs it in his face it's ok. I'm trying to teach Max to give Cooper space and trying to teach Cooper that Max is ok and not to get upset with him. So far I haven't needed to separate them, however I'm always around.

Both of your dogs sound happy. It doesn't seem like Lucy minds all that much. With Max being just a puppy I'm not sure what roll he plays yet but I keep telling Cooper he's the alpha king.

Haha. Cooper IS the Alpha King. And I would support him in that role for a while. But what if Max end up being the Alpha King? They will eventually figure it out. Ringo IS the alpha king. But he allows Lucy to have ALL the toys. If I throw one, he will let her get it first - even though he is faster and stronger. Can't figure that one out. Oh well, it's fun!

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Haha. Cooper IS the Alpha King. And I would support him in that role for a while. But what if Max end up being the Alpha King? They will eventually figure it out. Ringo IS the alpha king. But he allows Lucy to have ALL the toys. If I throw one, he will let her get it first - even though he is faster and stronger. Can't figure that one out. Oh well, it's fun!

I think my boys would kill bystanders for their toys. Neither would let the other have anything. Having 2 dogs is such a new relationship for me and for them. It'll take some time to learn everyone's roles.

[Ringo1]

Oh, I'll bet they will learn to share (now maybe not a juicy piece of steak or anything). But, remember, Lucy has been year over a year now. Her first three months here were a living HE!! for everyone. Now they are mainly just funny.

But, every now and then Ringo will get a look in his eye (usually late at night when Lucy still wants to play and he wants to sleep) and that look is scary. That's usually when I pick up Lucy and go to bed!

[AllDogBoots]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Oh, I'll bet they will learn to share (now maybe not a juicy piece of steak or anything). But, remember, Lucy has been year over a year now. Her first three months here were a living HE!! for everyone. Now they are mainly just funny.

But, every now and then Ringo will get a look in his eye (usually late at night when Lucy still wants to play and he wants to sleep) and that look is scary. That's usually when I pick up Lucy and go to bed!

This exact thing just happened! Cooper is resting and Max hit him with his paw. A little growl, a little stare and now we are going to bed!

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by AllDogBoots

I'm starting to pick up better signals of when i think the aggression will start. If Cooper is sitting eating a bully stick and Max walks over to him, it will be a problem. But if Cooper brings the bully to Max and hangs it in his face it's ok. I'm trying to teach Max to give Cooper space and trying to teach Cooper that Max is ok and not to get upset with him. So far I haven't needed to separate them, however I'm always around..

That's great. This is really the key, I think. Keep them both listening to you before they get too excited.

Sounds like Max is still learning the ropes. I think ultimately it will be better for him to have his older brother teach him good canetiquette (get it? Canine etiquette. HA!).