Alpha Roll
 

I know many people still use the outdated Alpha Roll that was developed back in the 1970's by the Monks of New Skete. Even though they later came out and apologized for it, stating that they never intended for it to be used by owners, but only by profession trainers in the most extreme cases of aggression, unfortunately, it is still used today.

Please read these articles:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

do you watch Victoria Stillwell or Ceasar Milan? Neither do the alpha roll that i know of, but Ceasar does do the claw thing to some dogs and talks about walking out doors first and eating first and Victoria does mimic the alpha role of eating the dogs food first and then giving it to him.

what do you make of this?

There's been a few threads in the past like this:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...pha-rolls.html
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...ification.html
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...te-thread.html

I've already posted my opinion there.

Not a fan of Caesar, but I love Victoria Stillwell! :thumbup:

Whoops! Guess I missed them!

I have seen Casar do the alpha roll and yes I have done it also with positive results. Im not saying it works for everybody but it did for me

No magic word
 

the longer i have Sadie and the more time i spend with her, the more i realize that Sadie is Sadie and there are no magic words to make her perfect and there are no rights and wrongs in training her really. it's all situational, what works for her doesn't work for others and vice versa. each dog is an individual and has to be treated in a way that works best for them.

just like you can't write a book that teaches you everything there is to know about being a child's parent, it's the same with dogs, there is good info. lots of advice to try out, but there are many ways to do things and you have to find what works best for the dog you have!!

i'm learning so much that i have to learn how to train and teach her based on how she responds and not how i've been taught or advised to do it. it's all based on how well it works with her!

just thought i'd throw that out there, there is no magic words, just trial and error in finding the perfect thing to make the dog listen, learn, and respond.

I agree. In training especially I think there are different things that work for different dogs. I have learned something from every trainer I have read about or watched on tv. Its just finding what works with my dogs

Just remember too, that patience and consistency are keys! Sine you have only had Sadie a couple of weeks, there can't be too much change in whta you are doing. Methods take a while to decide if they are going to work. A tiny 8 week old puppy needs a few weeks to get an idea. Some may not be quite as receptive to training until they have aged a few more weeks. Doesn't mean you don't try, you just have to be extra patient to see results of your efforts. So, just because something you try does not work immediately, does not mean it is not right for her. She just may need a little more time. We get our instant gratification by loving them but not usually in their training. ;)

I think I have posted one or both of these several times.
I posted a great deal when I was here before.

Dogs are not wolves wolves are not dogs and wolves do not alpha roll other wolves in a normal funtioning pack. They are a family and most often a wolf will roll over all on it own to just show all is well in the world.
Most times it is the well adjusted dog that will offer up its belly to a freaful dog to help calm things down and show it is not a threat.

Well done Ladymom you have the right end of things keep it up.
You need any more info on this PM me and I can get some good book titles.

Click or in my case we would say preaching to the choir.

I totally get this and it is ok to repeat and post about this again and again as if it comes out of the end of many differnt fingures then others will see it not just one but many that think and feel and nderstand things that are done with research and hard work is true.

JL

I dont see why it has to be debated over and over again. Some people dont agree with its use others do end of story!!!! I dont understand this knocking down of the training methods others use all the time.

I get you do not understand. I get you do not even wish to understand.
I am perfectly OK with that. You need never change your methods of training what so ever.
But there are others that are just coming into knowing or are looking at things in a different more progressive fact based ,science based, dog friendly way of doing training, that builds a relationship with a dog from a place of trust not fear and they need to be told that they are seeing things clearly and accurately then some other.
They have the right to post what they think is new and interesting and changing their lives and the lives of many others and not get smack up side the head cause you do not want to hear it anymore and you do not understand it.
Fact is it is not new and that OK but many are still crossing over.
I remember the day the light bulb went on and I know that trying to teach a little girl to heel by her pulling and me pulling and then her pulling and me pulling back as a correction was about as useful as not.
On the other hand when someone posts a thread that is OK alpha roll the dog or use a can of penny and has not clue that there can be nasty fall out to that and most do not have a clue there can be or even see it when it happens. I tend to shake my head and go fine have at it wreak a perfectly normal behave dog anyway you want but do not teach it to other if you do not know the fall out or how to fix it if there is.
I can, I have, I have the resources to, I have the leg work that is based in science and I can lay hands on studies which you wish not to read that can prove my points. You can not prove your methods can or can not based in science. It all you can say that it been done that way for years.
We have driven fussel fuel cars for years and now what are we looking at. the hybrids. why science say.........
We recycle why...science says.........
Why is it that we have to stick to the old ways when scince says there are better way....cause it always been done that way....... You know six years down the line maybe more maybe less there will be others ways to do lots of things. Why is it so scarey to look hard at a new way to dog train????

Life changes nothing stays teh same. Makes life intresting and great learning.

JL

It just seems like if you dont agree with it dont do it. But I dont know why it has to be debated all the time by the same people

This is why right here ( see below) she came for advice and she listened to it from those that really are not even close to versed in behaviour... it is not training when you are dealing with fear it is behavour and it got worse. and it a dogs life that is affected and it is NOT OK !! And it did not have to happen if we had done things from slow and easy.
This is why can you fix this???
I may be able to may if I had the dog in hand and close and if I have a parent willing to trust. But when a parenet trusted once it and is fails it takes longer each time to get them to trust again and get to work and the dogs just do not have the time. liveing with fear is not ok and not comfortable.
Why going slow and staying gentle is better cause you got more room to catch the problems before they slam you in the face.

JL

"Well, I'm puzzled now. Kaji will not walk out the front door, I don't know why but he won't. He'll come downstairs with me then watch me walk out. When I call him he quickly turns around and jets back upstairs. Once I get up there he is sitting by my bed and when I get close he lies on his back. When I reach down to pick him up because he needs to get out to potty, he dribbles pee. He did it three times today. Once before his mid-day walk, and twice before his before bed walk. The second one right now dribbled all over his belly. This is a fairly new behavior and it has me baffled. It only happens if I let him walk downstairs as we're heading out. If I carry him down and all the way outside, he's able to hold it long enough to pee outside. I thought I was seeing things for a few days but now I'm sure, I saw the stream when I picked him up all three times today.
My roommate was helping me show him that walking out the door is good. And he was getting the hang of it, too, when he ran back upstairs and then he peed (not dribbled but a small puddle). He knew he did something wrong because he cowered and hid under my desk.
Am I doing something to scare him? "

There are also plenty of people on here that it has worked for and they have the right to give advice the same as you do. When it comes down to it no one on here is more qualified than anyone to give opinions it is just opinions on an open forum. I believe there are more than one way to train a dog and no one is a superior source of knowledge on the subject

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/tra...n-anxiety.html

here is the link to the whole thread. See if you can pick up what may have gone wrong and what you think can be done.
Remeber he was in a fear state and now it is worse.
Know what? Roll him??? Can him??? pop a leash?? ignore it???
Just what is going to fix this???

JL

I dont know what I would have done exactly I would have to think on it more or read a training book but I dont know what I would do is relevant since I didnt post on it . Also I read every post on there and no one suggessted the alpha roll so I dont see where this is relevant

But if they brake a dog can they fix it?
and if they miss read something and head for a roll and they got ti wrong that dog is broke. We can not see the dog here and we are playing with lives would it not be the best course of action to do it slow and safe.

they brAke it they sure are not going to get a chance to fix it cause the owners not going to trust them. The now have a broke dog in crises in mental pain and pretty much going to be put down if someone does not do clean up.. I talking about rolling a dog here not the post above.
Yup it is an open forum but are you going to be around to clean up the mess if an owner does a roll gets bit or the dog crashes. Not thinking so.
You go slow and easy you got no mess to clean up and not need to hide if it blows up cause it is not going too.

JL

I Am aware that they did not suggest a roll but what is it that messed this boy up. Can we and I mean we find it?
Something has rattled this little one very badly team effort needs to be made to find it and we need to go slow to fix it.
I think the best course is to get fresh eye and someone PM Erin and see if her eyes can catch it. Something triggered this boy and we need that to fix this.

JL

Again thats your opinion only. It has worked for plenty of other people. Thats all Im going to say on th subject because I didnt mean to get into debating this subject that has been debated to death on here

Well first I would try leaving him separate from the other dog to make sure there wasnt a problem that way. I would also have the vet check for a UTI

opinion - 7 dictionary results
IP Attorney
Patent and Trademark Filings and Opinions - Sports/Entertainment Law
web.me.com/jdhlaw/

My Humble & Weird Ideas
Where you freely Speak Your Mind! Let Your Opinion Help Others.
nixeline.webs.com

Dallas Probate Attorney
Top-rated firm for wills, estate planning, & trusts.
Sponsored Resultswww.EBLaw.net

o⋅pin⋅ion  /əˈpɪnyən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA
Use opinion in a Sentence
–noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

OK good greif had to go look this up..science science sceince says facts say research says it is not based on insuffecient grounds now alpha is.


2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal. Not personal learned tested, study by many,

And alpha been deamed to to have insuffcient evidecne in repeated studies that it was any value.

JL

Good start most males do not get UTI but could be bladderstone.
Hummm what about a kidney infection.. ok that out there but maybe it worth a quick google look see.

Lets keep looking

JL

Thats not true males do get urinary tract infections. There was someone on here that had a male that was peeing in the house and it was not usual behavior. I told her he should be checked for a uti or stones. She pmed me back and told me the vet saidd he had a UTI. Whenever a dog is peeing in places its not supposed to and its not a usual behavior it should be checked

You are right it not normally that and needs to be looked at for sure for certain and I did post that to the thread and not as my suggestion at all.

Cause I did not come up with that.

JL

Does it mean nothing to you that the Monks of New Skete, who introduced the alpha roll in their book How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend in 1976, have since expressed regret that they had included the alpha roll in the book because has been misused by dog owners?

The Monks of New Skete explained that the alpha roll was only meant to be used in the most serious cases and only by professionals.

No it doesnt. The only thing that matters to me is that I did it in the one and only time my dog showed aggression in 4 1/2 yrs and it worked he never did it again. It matters to me that I watched Cesar do it with positive results. It matters to me that I have read others have done it on here with positive results. Maybe Im just a more results oriented type of person than a listening to the experts type of person. Experts can have agendas

go read the very last post in the ceser thread and see what at says about why it ( may) work for him and why it does not do so for all to many. just cause you had a dog that could handle it does not mean that it will work on a dog that is far more fragile. unless one goes slow and really watches the dogs body languae tossing them to the ground is the fastest way to wreak a dog with limited bouce back and that is alife time to fix.
You got to not start from heavy handed and go up you ru out of room fast if the dog doesn ot respond and many do not.
If you start from soft and go up you have a tin more room to make slit oops and still go forward.


jl

The only thing I saw in that article that it might be effective for Cesar and not someone else is his presense. Anyone who wants to do any training method on their dog has to have presense. They have to be their dogs leader. So I agree with you if they arent their dogs leader they might not be successful with it. Although I think most people on here try to acchieve that

What is "presense"? :confused: