Barking! Can't take it anymore...

[ladyjane]

As for the Golden behind you...yes, I would definitely fix that fence so they do not see him. I think it is a rare yorkie that will ignore another dog...especially one that is bigger. I have not been successful in stopping mine from going nuts with the dogs on either side of me. I put up an eight foot privacy fence (my neighbors and I split the cost of fencing on the sides we share)......they will still bark if they hear them, but no more of the staring through the slats of the old fence and stalking the big dogs. Yorkies are born looking like Rotties and never realize they are not them.

[AprilTuesday]

Any use of anything to restrain a dog from doing what we call is "abnormal" behavior (is normal to them), is as matter of fact, cruelty.. shaking coins in a can, my dog is TERRIFIED of loud noises, she flinches and shakes when she hears it... So in essence, we can basically label almost everything we've done to restrict our dogs from certain behaviors as cruel treatment

OBVIOUSLY you should not spray it in the eyes, that's just so evil and what demented idiot would do that? Bitter apples is safe and non-toxic. Most pets wont get used to the taste so it's quite effective again and again.

It's like kids eating non-toxic glue or crayon.

I've used it on my previous pets and recommend it to my family and friends and noone have had problems with it, neither them nor the pets. AND it's seldomly used and i've never used a full small-sized bottle on any single dog during wee-months of training.

That's my suggestion, but if anyone wanna go with a shock collar, beats me.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by AprilTuesday

Any use of anything to restrain a dog from doing what we call is "abnormal" behavior (is normal to them), is as matter of fact, cruelty.. shaking coins in a can, my dog is TERRIFIED of loud noises, she flinches and shakes when she hears it... So in essence, we can basically label almost everything we've done to restrict our dogs from certain behaviors as cruel treatment

OBVIOUSLY you should not spray it in the eyes, that's just so evil and what demented idiot would do that? Bitter apples is safe and non-toxic. Most pets wont get used to the taste so it's quite effective again and again.

It's like kids eating non-toxic glue or crayon.

I've used it on my previous pets and recommend it to my family and friends and noone have had problems with it, neither them nor the pets. AND it's seldomly used and i've never used a full small-sized bottle on any single dog during wee-months of training.

That's my suggestion, but if anyone wanna go with a shock collar, beats me.

Your original post said that you spray it in their mouths...beyond me how you could guarantee not getting it into their eyes. Their size would say that is not a given! Someone could potentially and easily miss and hit the eyes. That is what I call obvious.

And..once again...I think this warrants consideration:
http://www.mydogtrainer.com/freedogtrainingtips/bitter-apple.htm

I do not restrain my dogs...and I don't think this had anything to do with restraint. It had to do with positive training.
I don't see a shock collar or Bitter Apple sprayed in their faces as positive.
Just my opinion.
You can do as you wish. I just thought you might want to be aware that it could be a problem. The company made it to be sprayed on objects to keep dogs away...not to spray in their faces and I think it could potentially harm them.
Maybe you do not think so..and maybe you think the way you use it is obvious. Your post did not say anything about an amount...and I am concerned that someone might see it and a dog could potentially be harmed.
I do not know how you can compare shaking a can of coins to a shock collar or spraying a substance in their faces. My dogs are not shell shocked and are not afraid of noises. The noises merely get their attention. The real trick to a can of coins is to not let them see it. All it should do is distract them!

[AprilTuesday]

I don't know how you comprehended spraying into a mouth equates to spraying in the eyes, that's just beyond me.

Unless you have Parkinsons and unable to hold a bottle steadily, there is no reason for you to use Bitter Apples.

When you force feed your pets, do you accidentally/clumsily POKE them in the eye? That's ridiculous.. If you're not capable, please don't use it.

The only way you could get it into the eyes of your pet is by spraying it at a distance. If that's what you implying how i spray it, you're just a genius. I NEVER spray unless I've got a firm grip around my baby's mouth and i put the nozzle INTO the mouth and give it a 1/4 squeeze, never a full spray, therefore, no eye contact.

I said this is how I TRAIN my puppy and if you disagree, don't insult me. Shame on you. Why would i put coins in a bottle and shake it to the death of her ears and frighten the hell out of her? That, to me, is cruel treatment on my pup. But i'm not going to SHUN anyone from using that technique as it might work for them.

So please, don't just sit there and judge me.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by AprilTuesday

I don't know how you comprehended spraying into a mouth equates to spraying in the eyes, that's just beyond me.

Unless you have Parkinsons and unable to hold a bottle steadily, there is no reason for you to use Bitter Apples.

When you force feed your pets, do you accidentally/clumsily POKE them in the eye? That's ridiculous.. If you're not capable, please don't use it.

The only way you could get it into the eyes of your pet is by spraying it at a distance. If that's what you implying how i spray it, you're just a genius. I NEVER spray unless I've got a firm grip around my baby's mouth and i put the nozzle INTO the mouth and give it a 1/4 squeeze, never a full spray, therefore, no eye contact.

I said this is how I TRAIN my puppy and if you disagree, don't insult me. Shame on you. Why would i put coins in a bottle and shake it to the death of her ears and frighten the hell out of her? That, to me, is cruel treatment on my pup. But i'm not going to SHUN anyone from using that technique as it might work for them.

So please, don't just sit there and judge me.

A. Let me get this straight...you pick them up and put the bottle in their mouths and spray? How long does this take? I am sure it is over the time recommended by trainers to get the message across.
B. I don't force feed my pups. I do not understand that analogy at all.
C. What does shunning have to do with something that could be potentially hazardous to a pup?
D. Who said anything about shaking a can to death in a pup's ear and frightening the hell out of her?
E. Flame away. No one judged you. You came back with some pretty strong comments and inuendoes in my opinion. I stand by what I said about using Bitter Apple the way that you do. I hope it will save other pups from your training tip. I think it is pretty careless myself and cannot even imagine someone doing it. I tried to say that tactfully and tried to show you where a trainer advised against it. Clearly you think you are right and are not open to others' ideas. So..hey....whatever.

[Gardeness]

I feel so sorry for the dog being grabbed and sprayed. I wouldn't do ANYTHING to an animal that I wouldn't do to myself or my kids! I wouldn't put a shock collar on any human being (or animal) nor spray that CRAP in their mouths! To each their own - poor poor animal!

[AprilTuesday]

Do you always have to PICK UP a pup to hold it? C'mon, use your head!

WHERE are you getting sources from anyway, a he say she say?

Like i said earlier, if you can't be careful with the bottle and feel that you might clumsily spray in their eyes then PLEASE don't use it!

Here i have to RE-iterate again, each person will find a good compromise with their pups accordingly. Nonetheless, if it doesn't hurt your pet, then do what you may, only you know what 's good for them. It's not about me not being open minded about what you're saying, it is you who is accusing me of wrongdoing, not the other way around.

In retrospect to your "link of information" there are pet trainers like Cesar Millan (and my long time Vet) who recommends Bitter Apples as a negative reinforcement for unfavorable habits.

People have been known to give their disobedient dogs jalapeno juice or even tobasco sauce, least worry about Bitter Apples! God forbid you, If you've ACTUALLY researched into what the product contains, you will find that Bitter Apples is non-toxic... how many times do i have to say that... here's what non-toxic means - it means there's no harm to their health... ta-da.

And again, i would never shake a can of coins, whether near their ears or "discretely" behind my backs because my puppy is afraid of the noise.

Last but not least, if bitter apples was harmful to dogs, do you think they'd still be selling them in major pet stores?

[ladyjane]

some people should only have stuffed animals

[Nancy1999]

Many professionals recommend using the least aversive technique that gets the dogs attention, this is why penny's in a can is so popular; it gets their attention, but is not painful. In order to be effective, punishment has to closely follow the behavior you wish to reduce. The longer period of time between he barking and the punishment, the more the punishment is ineffective. Seconds matter. You want to link the punishment with the behavior and not yourself. In other words, if you have to grab a spray bottle and run to the dog, the punishment becomes associated with you and not the barking. If pennies in a can is not an effective enough noise, than you find a slightly louder noise, until you find a level that gets their attention and interrupts the barking. This is all you are trying to do at first, interrupt their barking. At first, you keep the noisemaker close to you so that the sound can be made every time they bark. They will bark after they hear the noise, it doesn't stop it immediately, but they are not as rewarded for the barking. Make sure you are calm when you use the noisemaker, being agitated increases barking, they will bark if they feel threatened. You have to be consistent and calm, and use the noisemaker every time and one more time than they bark.

Bitter apple is a taste deterrent for spraying on items not to be chewed, it is not to be sprayed on them, and the bottle does say avoid spraying in eyes, it contains alcohol, and this could cause injury, in the heat of the moment you might end up spraying some in their eyes. Furthermore, they will associate this with you, and not the barking, even if it stopped the barking, when you weren't around, they would be more likely to bark. With a noise deterrent, even though you are making the noise they don't associate this with you. I've found that most people say that this doesn't work because they give up, and aren't consistent, it doesn't work overnight. We kept three cans of pennies in different rooms, so one was always handy. I also think there are different types of barking and dogs have been bred to bark and warn us of danger, the dogs are doing their job, but they need to learn to stop, when you tell them that ever thing is ok. Some experts recommend you thank them, say everything's ok, and then when they continue to bark, use the aversive technique. You will never totally eliminate barking, you are trying to get them to obey you when you tell them to stop. After we used the pennies in the can, we were eventually able to just say "shhh" and sometimes I can just put my finger to my lips and he stops. Every now and then I have to reintroduce the can, but just seeing it is enough for him. You say you don't want to use noise because she's afraid of noise, but that's why the noise would be effective, if noise didn't bother her at all it wouldn't be effective.

[belindaY]

I'm a breeder and very reluctant to let my puppies go to inexperienced homes because of situations like this---Give up your dogs; they deserve better than this abuse.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by belindaY

I'm a breeder and very reluctant to let my puppies go to inexperienced homes because of situations like this---Give up your dogs; they deserve better than this abuse.

Look I think I said that ealier in this thread... your not willing to work through it and take the time to do it nice and gentle and with respect and praying and any other adversives are not ok. It be better to give to a rescue and let them find a loving willing home.
There are no quick fixes for anything worth doing to a member of the family.

JL

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by belindaY

I'm a breeder and very reluctant to let my puppies go to inexperienced homes because of situations like this---Give up your dogs; they deserve better than this abuse.

The original poster is not spraying the face with bitter apple; another poster suggested this.