Help: New Puppy Aggressive towards 18 month 2lb Yorkie
 

Hi all,

I just got a 4 month old tiny puppy. She is about 1.2lbs, so she is small, about half the size of my almost 18 month old. My problem is she keeps charging at my poor little girl, seems to nip and try to bite her, steals her toys.....and she is half the size. My older girl seems lost, and hesitant to stand up for her rights. She seems afraid to set limits and ends up being abused by the puppy. The puppy charges at her like a bull and then rams into her, jumps on her and sometimes even tries to bite her. She just seems so lost, so depressed. I wonder am I supposed to stop these shenanegans? Or allow them to work it out themselves? Both of them are very very small. my older one is only between 2 and 2.5 lbs. She seems so depressed, I'm almost thinking of selling the puppy because my older one seems to be having such a bad reaction. Should I step in and stop the puppy from jumping on the older one? How should I handle this my first time as the parent of two puppy dogs. I don't know how to handle this. Any help would be greatly appreciated. By the way, the puppy is the cutest thing. Very rambunctious and full of energy and cute as pie. But I dont want my older girl to be depressed or abused. She is the love of my life. Help!!!! Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Shellie :-):)

Anybody out there? I really need help in handling this kind of behavior. I've never had two dogs before, and therefore I'm kind of dumb when it comes to knowing what to do about this. I really can't tell if the puppy if trying to assert her dominance over Cassie or if she is just playing. I can't tell the difference and therefore don't know when or if- I should step in to break it up. Should I allow her to keep ramming herself into Cassie? Should I try to protect Cassie? What is best for both of them? Somebody, please answer. I need your help.
TIA Shellie :-)

Ok, I only have one puppy, so I can only tell you what I would do if I were in your situation. Someone else may have better advice, but this is how I think I would handle the situation given everything I've read and understand about pups.

We (the parents) are supposed to be the pack leader. Your puppy is being both a rambunctious puppy but also is probably testing the water at taking over the "top dog" role. Since your 2 year old isn't taking up for herself, the puppy will probably keep on doing it. I would say that now, as the pack leader, it's time for you to step in. When my puppy (4 1/2 mo. old) is playing with me, I have to give her boundaries. She bites too hard and licks me on the mouth, etc... I have to let her know what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. I give her a stern "No, ma'am!" and then turn my back on her. Maybe you could give her the "No!" when she's being too rough with your 2 yr. old and then pick up your 2 yr. old, turn away from her, and totally ignore her for a minute or 2, not even looking at her. She won't like being ignored, and I think eventually she'll understand, "If I play nice, Mom and Sis will keep playing with me, but if I'm too rough, they won't." It does seem to work pretty well. At least that's a good starting point. I really think if you do that for awhile, she'll get the idea. I think it's really good that you gave your 2 yr. old a chance to take charge for herself, but since she hasn't, I think it's your job to do it now. You're the pack leader!! Good luck! I hope that helps!

P.S. I understand what you're saying about not knowing if you should step in or not, but I think you'll know when. Let them play, but if it's obviously too rough and your 2 yr. old is obviously not having fun, then you'll know it's time. Keep the peace and give your baby boundaries without completely inhibiting her, if that makes any sense. You do have to let her be a puppy, somewhat...but she doesn't have to be a holy terror!

My yorkie runs up and bites the feet of my older Standard Poodle to try to get her to play with her and the trainer told me I need to stop her from doing that because the yorkie needs to learn that she can't do that whenever she wants. He also said when I am eating I need to make her stay about a foot or 2 away from me and not let her sit at my feet....they need to learn boundries. Hope this helps.

Thank you both so much for your advice. I just wrote a long winded (LOL) reply and Thank You to Bellasmomok, but I keep getting signed out of the website. Then when I signed back in, it wasn't there. Anyone else having this problem? :-) Shellie

It truly is about the boundaries
 

Puppies need discipline actually they want it. If we were never taught things how would we know what is acceptable and what is not. Dogs that exhibit behaviors that are unacceptable must know that they are not to do that. You as the pack leader must step in being calm and assertive and create the harmony that your other furbaby has been use to living in. I have found that redirecting my puppies keep them out of trouble. Training them to play is fun, you have to snap her mind out of the behaviors unacceptable and into another zone. By just picking the calm puppy up and not giving discipline to the new puppy sends a message Hey look I am the big one she is not going to do anything. I always remember I am the pack leader..Good luck..

First yes they do want rules and they love to know what they can and can not do but all behaviour is just that behaviour they are not out to take over or lead they just do what they do naturally.
It may be unacceptable to us but is normal to them so discipline them for what they bring to the table is not a good idea. To them they know no better until we teach them what we expect of them so redirect and coaching is way better then pack leader as dogs in the wild do not run in packs.
They run in ones or twos tjat join up and walk away from each other as the need and avaliable supplies are, are not there.
They do not form family groups like wolves as the supply of resoucrs does not allow that at all.

What one sees at a dump site of waste is small one and twos coming into contact with other ones and twos and fighting over limited resouces not a pack fighting and doing dominace or not.

We have to understand thees guys come from a whole differnt way of thinking and understanding the world and only coming at them from our pint of view is making us miss what incredible animals and thinking being they are.
They underatnd us far better then we understand them.
So instead of disapline try guiding, try using thier language to help them. Teach them that splitting up and walking away is ok.
Give them other things to do.
Besides do we really know this is aggresion and just not puppy play out of hand and the big dogs needs to be tauught it ok to tell the little one no.


JL

I don't remember reading anyone saying anything about disciplining the dog....in fact all I remember reading, and writing as well, is to set boundaries. I think "using their language" and "guiding" is exactly what I was saying when I said to ignore and turn away. That is passive guidance. I'm not so sure redirection will work well in this instance since the puppy, number one is probably already playing, albeit too rough, and number two turning their attention to some other form of play is only a "quick fix", a temporary solution to the problem. In fact, it may even be seen as rewarding that behavior...."good dog, here have a toy!" I believe the passive solution to stop playing is the more natural solution. When a puppy is playing with mom or litter-mates, and plays too roughly, both will let out a yelp, possibly bite back (which the older dog in this instance isn't doing, and there is no way to make it do!!), and will stop playing with them. Young puppies in litters have "rules for play"--if you're too rough then I don't want to play with you!--so older puppies who are no longer with their litter-mates need those same rules.

And new puppies and kittens both do sometimes try out their dominance....that is also just a natural way of things. Just because dogs are only in 2's or 3's doesn't mean that one isn't the leader. I can guarantee you one is! I have 2 cats and 1 dog, and all 3 tested boundaries with me to see if they could be the ones to make the rules (unforturnately for them, I make the rules here!), and the youngest 2 tried their hand at being dominant over the older ones just to see if they could....pushing in front of them while they were eating, drinking, taking the toy they were playing with, etc... The older ones let them push ahead while they were still small, but then put them in their place as they got a bit bigger. It's just the way things are....

Well I was looking at Perroamor post that says in the first line.... Puppies need discipline actually they want it." So hummm think I read that right.


bellasmomok...."And new puppies and kittens both do sometimes try out their dominance...."
No they are trying to figure our what they can an can not do. They need to be told what is ok to do to one dog or cat then to another. Just like a human child learns playing rough with dad at the end of the day is ok but doing so with grandmother is never ok. It not dominance at all no dog or cat is out to take over the world or run the house they just want to do thing that make them happy safe and comfortable.


JL

Ok, YorkieMother, Perroamor did actually use the word "discipline", but she explained what she meant by the word in the very next sentence....teaching what is acceptable and what is not. That is exactly what you have been saying (and what everyone else has been saying too). I was simply pointing out to you that no one here has been talking about any form of punishment, excessive or otherwise, which is the conclusion you seemed to have reached when you originally posted, and continue posting, about how there's essentially no such thing as a pack leader and disciplining your dog is a bad idea.

In your most recent post you said "no dog or cat is out to take over the world or run the house they just want to do thing that make them happy safe and comfortable." I would say to you that you are only partially correct. Of course no dog/cat is out to take over the world....how ridiculous do you presume we are?? But they do not always do things "that make them happy safe and comfortable." Case in point, I opened the door yesterday and Bella bolted out of it, down the driveway, and nearly made it to the street as a car was passing. The whole time I'm saying "Bella, come here" just as we've practiced, but this time she is selectively not listening. I finally yell "NOOOO!", not because I was saying "no" to her, but because her little life had just flashed before my eyes when I saw the car, and that did it. She spun around, and high tailed it back to me. (Needless to say we have a lot more practicing to do! And I'm teaching "Wait" post haste too!) I would say running toward the street is DANGEROUS!! As anyone would....not "happy safe and comfortable" behavior.

When people say "pack leader", it may mean different things to different people, but I think the operative word is "leader"....rule maker. If you let a child play with grandma the same way he plays with dad, or basically allow him to do whatever, whenever, you will have an unruly, unpleasant child. IMO, people say "you're the pack leader" in the same way they tell a mother "you're the mother!" Obviously, though I think of Bella as my furdaughter, she is not my daughter, so "you're the pack leader" is a figure of speech to say "you're the parent/boss/rule maker". And rightly so. Pets, of all ages (just as children of all ages, and some adults I know too) will test their boundaries in any new environment. Ex: Bella knows she doesn't eat people food at my house, but when we go visit my dad (who does give his dog bites), she has to check and see if she can get away with it there. Testing boundaries has nothing to do with taking over the world, but if you allow that pet (or child) to be in charge (be the "dominant" one) they will take it and run! [Can you see how we use different words with our pets, but mean exactly the same thing? To be dominant simply means "to rule, or to control". If your dog sees that they can do whatever, whenever with you, and that another dog doesn't stop it from doing whatever, whenever with them...your dog probably will do whatever, whenever to a degree. If the OP's older dog had turned and bitten that puppy back and then growled, guaranteed, the puppy would definitely play a lot nicer with that dog. If an older dog doesn't allow a younger dog, say, to push it out of the way to get to the food bowl, the younger dog will learn that the older dog isn't going to let it push it around. The older dog is in control of that situation....a.k.a. "dominant" in that particular situation.]

I feel a little exasparated that this needs to be explained. Perhaps you are taking things too literally.

bellasmomok

Not sure what you have behind you for training nor what books you have read. Your talking to someone with 26 years in with human childern, full time packing a school education to do so, and at least looking at 7 years in part time and full time with dogs. Packing running now 60 books and seninars and classes in dog training and education. Your talking with someone that gets dogs and works and talks with those that are writing the books you and I are a reading on a daily bases.

I ask not rule. All my kids furry or not. They have a right unkless it a saftey concern to complie or not unless we have a dog working and truly aggressive.

So I tend to try and keep it simple in the language cause I can talk over ones head really fast with the education level I have. Now I can start tossing out learning theroy and postive reiforcement and negative reinforcement and postive punishment and negative punishment a whole bunch more if you need me too.

Dogs do what dogs do cause it is in their gene pool and works. It is to make life easy and simple for them and we need rules not them to keep them safe.


Here are a few articles.

DogTown Versus The Dog Whisperer | Dog Star Daily

The Alpha Fallacy | Dog Star Daily

Establishing Dominance | Dog Star Daily

Dog Communication | Dog Star Daily

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...yth%201-05.doc

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

JL

This is the last thing I'm going to say about this to you, YorkieMother, because I don't want to argue. Let me refresh you first:

Here is a quote from one of the articles you linked ("The Alpha Fallacy"): "A topdog has little need to threaten and an underdog would be crazy to. Without a doubt excessive growling and repeated fighting are indicative of an underlying insecurity and uncertainty about social rank vis a vis other dogs."

Hmmm, so according to your sources, there are topdogs (a.k.a. what at least I would refer to as a pack leader), and that shows of aggression, albeit more aggression than this puppy has shown to our knowledge (though I seriously doubt she's showing aggression to that degree), are "uncertainty about social rank vis a vis other dogs". Translation: show aggression in order to get a reaction in order to establish a certainty about social rank. I guess that must just be way over my head and must mean something completely different to someone with your level of education, but I feel like this is all I have been trying to say all along. So, I will bow out of this discussion since it has become contradictory and leave it to you. I would think, with your level of education and experience instructing seminars, your goal would be to listen and educate, rather than pick apart everything we say in an obstinate manner.

I suggest you have a look at Pamela Reids work/Book Excel-erated Learning!
I also suggest Patrica McConnels book on Dogs we love.. I think it is call but anything by her is great.
I suggest stuff by terry ryan and or pat Millar.

I not trying to pick anything apart it all just learning and teaching. You can take that which you can use and not that which you can not.

I may have posted the wrong article and you know that makes me a human with the one but the others are right and you know that making a mistake is good learning for me to make sure i read in full and get it right.
I snagged them in a hurry.

JL

Not here to debate who is smarter?
 

Folks sometimes its better to agree to disagree. :confused: I thought this forum for us all to learn...... that doesn't give anyone the assertive right to belittle anyone! A variety of opinions is a good thing and my mom told me along time ago sometimes when she gives me advice its ok to listen then as long as I have choices laid out it is up to me to keep what I need and discard the rest but listen to all...... We all have a variance of life experience and educational backgrounds... I am sure the original poster was looking for any and all advice, not a fight about who has more experience, education, some people on here think there is room for us ALL to learn!!!!!!! Have a blessed day!!:)

We are all giving opinions that is what this forum is for and no ones opinion is greater than another I dont care how much experience someone has. We all are dog owners and we all have experience. It may not be the same as someone elses but the op can sift through the posts and take what they want to take and leave the rest. I just dont like it when someone makes a point to say their opinion is more valuable than someone elses. Not every one does things the same way yet we all get results

Hi Shellie,
Your new baby wants to play with the other dog... But your other dog is getting walked all over . Your 2yr old Yorkie must be so placid , and laid back. She is putting up with the new puppy.
When the play gets out of hand, I would distract the puppy. Give her a toy or treat. Or play with her yourself. you might even have to separate them until things calm down.
Many yorkie owners have several dogs and certainly could offer really good advice.
I wish you the best of luck. :aimeeyork

Thank you for saying that. In retrospect, I was feeling a little defensive, and for that I'm sorry. I have a hard time leaving well enough alone when I feel "opinion-bashed" (my made-up word :D) or feel like someone took something the wrong way--I feel the need to explain. I'm so thankful for all the opinions I've read on here about many, many different things!!! I've left a lot of them, but used a lot as well. So, thank you!

Hello all,

First of all, I would like to say thank you to everyone who took the time out of their busy schedules to write and try to help me in my hour of desperation. I did not want to do a disservice to either Cassie or Muffin, or cause any harm, damage, impediment to learning or confusion to either Muffin or Cassie.

I find that each and every post has something to offer and I am grateful for the variety of different approaches and ideas.

I have gleaned from these discussions that there is more than one way to handle or manage theses situations, and that I guess each person needs to try various methods for themselves to see what works for them.

I am slowly understanding that there is no absolute right or wrong, that these matters are as much a personal vision and a philosophy as well as a specific individual method of handling situations such as mine. Also involved are the personalities of our little ones- who depend so much upon our love, wisdom and fairness to handle these things in the best way possible for both of them. Whew! That is a TALL order (LOL).

I have not actually reached any conclusions as of yet. Everyone's idea's seem to have some merit. I am trying to put them all together and sift through the pro's and con's of each methodology, or even perhaps combine them when appropriate-having a more eclectic approach. However, in the end, I do think whatever approach, consistency may be more important than any specific method or philosophy-as long as the method leaves both parties their dignity and feeling valued and loved.

Does this sound silly to you, when talking about our babies? Although they are not human, I do believe that they all have a sense of dignity and can feel when they have lost their own dignity and self respect. Maybe as long as whatever we do, we do it with love and patience on a consistant basis, it will be alright. I would be lying to you if I said I have it all worked out. I'm still confused, but I am trying certain methods. I will keep you all updated on my progress. I continue to welcome all who would share sincerely, their knowledge and experiences, to keep posting as I am open to all viewpoints.

Thank you all for everything, you have certainly given me something to think about and a place to start exploring. I don't feel as lost as I was. I appreciate each and every one of you. If not for you, I would be ALONE in this dilemma. Much Love, Shellie

Well said allowing them the sense of dignity is very important and needed.
Exploring is a wonderful way to learn.

Just like we go to a mechanic to get our car fixed or our Family doctor to find out info and get help. We may know somethings but not it all and asking advice and learning.

JL

I understand what you are saying and I get that this is the general feeling.
Follow this thought.

So we all drive cars and know how put gas in them and that the wheels go round and round and the engine must run to make it go..
So it does not start do you stick you head in hit it twice or do you take it to the mechanic that been to school read the books and understands the engines and th computors that run them.

Hummm unless I am a trained mechaic or a have an understanding of a car engine I going off to the mechanic.

My child has an ear ach and I know what it is and I try the medication to unclug the nasel passages but it not working.. Do I try something else or do I go see a Dr. that been to school and undeerstand the workings of an ear or not.
That same child brakes and arm....???? I going to know to keep it still and give him a pain killer and run him to a Dr one specializing in bones.....


Dog trainer those that I run with spend a great deal of time learning their craft and yes we all own dogs but as dog trainers we have taken it to a teaching level and a learned level that out passes most " dog owner"

Now that said there as a great deal of very wise dog owners out there that have spent there time busting there butts to learn to save a critically ill dog cause no out there close enough to teach or to guide.

That be my start point so I get there are a few very wise dog owners that understand this stuff.

And on that note there are a few said trainers and two on TV that know not a thing and are held in high requried but they stopped learning and they stopped seeing what is realy there not what is folk lure.

JL

A child and a dog are different a child can tell you they have an ear ache. A dog cant you can only quess. So I quess that is the point I am trying to make. No one on this earth (even the dog experts) can get into the mind of a dog. So it is just their opinion the same as someone on here. If someone on here has gotten good results from ther training method than I think thats what the op wants to hear. Also there are alot of dog trainers all with different methods and not everyone goes by the same one and thats okay. Who is to say who is superior opinion when like I said no one on this earth can get intoo the mind of a dog

Well dear then you best not talk to those that do rekie ( that no spelt right) or are animal communicators as tehy feel they can get into a mind.

Now that said I am not sure if I even believe that is possible but I do rekie for my dog to help calm her.

No one here least of all me is feeling superior in any of my thoughts as I made and will make a great many mistakes on my path of learning.
It is by making mistakes we learn.

Good results is great aslong as your dealing with a dog without any metal health concerns at all. and unless you can see it you do not know that.
Nor do I so going slow allows one to make a mistake that is not hurtful and you can not take back or change with a little work or you have not made the dog fearful.


JL

Well I dont believe in animal communicators so I wouldnt agree with you

I did not say I agreed with animal communicators, did I??
I said I did rekei which is just energy work. Does not require me to think I can mind join with a dog at all.

I was just pointing out that there are some that think they can.

Now the science is not behind them as it is with what I have talked about.
The research and the cross checks are in place to support what I have chatted about not so with what you have chatted about nor the animal communicators either.
Just cause it always been done does not mean there is reseach to prove it is correct.

JL

I have the same problem at home. My yorkie is almost 13 weeks as is my husband's dog, a mix of rat terrier & whatever else that makes a good squirrel dog, lol. Although mine is half the size of the other one she plays so rough with her. She is not aggressive where food or toys are concerned, just growls, bites, and jumps on the other one while playing. I am constantly trying to keep them apart to prevent it but my husband says that eventually they will get over it and she will stop. So I don't really have any advice but wanted to let you know mine is doing the same.

i have a 2 lb. male yorkie, and when he came home it was certainly a fiasco!

i already have a 4 year old 7 lb male yorkie and a 6 year old 3 lb maltese (who by the way is the Alpha here!)
this was certainly a test. Mcdreamy, the little (new one) was just jumping all over everyone.i thought FOR SURE that elliott was going to bite him. I watched them, butalso,let them work it out, and they did. mcdreamyKNOWS when to stop.
now, my daughter bought a newyorkie(who isalmost onenow) and she also has a little Maltese, who is VERY demure. shes so quite, rarely barks, and just let little sophie take over. sophie jumps all over her, and its just been RECENTLY, that they now play fine. sophie is definately the Alpha, but thats okay.
i think as long as you watch them when you can, should be okay. a 1 or 2 lb. dog REALLY cant harm your other one, i dont think. but if you really are concerned, please contact your vet. good luck.

i think, basically, the new little one, JUST wants to play...

HI!
 

How was Cassie and Merlin together before Merlin passed away? Didn't they get along? Is Muffin also a yorkie? I haven't been on line in FOREVER... Renee