F- Smartpuppiepets

[smartpuppiepets]

I did talk to administrator of Yorkie Talk before posting here just to make sure it was the way the site works.I was advised by the administrator to post an answer here. Not to clarify specific to whom started the post, but to put in the open our side of the situation.
We do have an adoption contract to protect the puppy we adopt out, to protect us and to protect the person who is taking any one of our puppies home. We mainly want any of our puppies to be well cared for and be treated well, with respect and love and be part of their FOREVER families. We do care about the health and well being of the puppies born onto our hands. And we also care and cherish the families that get to bring any of these special doggies to their home and into their lives. We build up a relationship with everyone who gets to add one of our "babies" into their family. We do not want anyone "stuck" with a puppy they can no longer love or care for , so we are as strict as a shelter about not allowing our puppies to be rehomed, but be returned to us to make sure we know the whereabouts of our puppies at all times. They all need to come back to us, healthy or not and we will take good loving care of them. Also we do have a health guarantee just in case if something unavoidable by breeding choices happen to make sure our adoptive families get to enjoy a healthy dog and fall in love with the breeds we love.
Unfortunately despite trying our best and asking so many questions, sometimes even calling vet references before committing to send a puppy home this situation still happened to us. And for so many years we had a very strict policy about not allowing any type of breeding rights to anyone that we did not knew personally and had already built a relationship with.
We made an exception to this person and that was a mistake. Mainly because she had a long history of breeding other animals, her bunnies, and her family also had some breeding experience on larger breeds. After so many conversations over the phone and so many questions on both sides, this lady came over to meet the puppy we had available that could perhaps balance the male puppy she was getting. Based on her information it did make sense. She was looking for an ACA registered female like her male. And by the time she did not seem to care to the fact the male she bought could turn out not to be able to breed, in which case she did ask if we would have a male that could be bred in case she decided to breed the female and in case her male turned out not to be suitable. She came over, saw the female before committing. we both agreed to the adoption. We both signed the contract together. Also it is true that the puppy she adopted is a "stud pay" and she knew that from day one.
I came to know about her postings here in YT through someone else who has one of our puppies... well, dog at 6 years old.
I still do not think i misread any signs on the fact that this lady can be and will be a good pet owner.
This whole situation only proves that we should keep been strict about not giving breeding rights to anyone. After she brought her puppies home she e-mailed me saying that they seem to look quite different, as we know yorkies can look different specially as puppies. She had previously described her male to me. By her descriptions i pictured her male as having very short legs, bulky head and lots of cottony hair. Again, at the time our female seem to make sense to be a possible match for her male if she was ever to decide to breed them once in her life as she wanted, but she left it clearly that she wanted both of them, male and female to primarily be her pets.
She obviously is not a predator breeder and she expressed that she may decide to breed them in the future and wanted the option to do so "in case" she decided to.
She started e-mailing some very weird e-mails. Short, impolite and offensive, shortly after she brought the puppy home. I will never start to argue and i did not continue the arguing. At some point she mentioned that the female was not a yorkie but a chihuahua , she asked on the e-mail and we did confirm that we have no dog of that breed. She did a DNA test and after that she e-mailed me about the papers. She got the dogs papers and she was not happy as she wanted it to be in her name. All she has to do is pay the transfer fee of the dog ownership. I called ACA and that is 17.00 dollars for the transfer fee.
Every time she e-mails she seems to be looking for an argument.
I read all her posts about this situation. To anyone who may care to read them back you will find out what she wrote and you can make your own conclusions. By reading it my self at some point it seems like she wanted a show dog. Although when she first contacted us she never mentioned she was looking for a show quality or show prospect puppy. other way, she made it clear her intentions were never to show.
I am sorry i placed the puppy with an altered contract allowing breeding her even just for once or twice. This whole thing would never had happened if i had not allowed it on the contract. I hope by posting this it can be not experience for my self but for others. That is the lesson i get from all of this.
Again, i do not think this lady is a bad pet owner or will not care for animals and neglect them. but if she proved good enough to be a pet owner i should have read that. I would have avoided a lot.
I am not running away from answering any of her e-mails, but i will not get into arguing.
At some point in her postings on the other thread she mentioned that she is not willing to return her dog, also she mentioned that she would very much like to have her money back and still keep the dog. Well, whoever takes the time to read this can also have their own conclusions. I am not going to suggest anything else based on her statements here, privately she never mentioned anything to me by either phone or e-mail.
I Hope this posting will bring some light to whoever is interested.
And for you, ( ...) i hope this answer in the open will bring some light to your end of the situation.
I would never be sorry i placed one of our puppies with you... however i am sorry i allowed the breeding possibility, i am so very sorry i did it. You are so new at the whole yorkie owner and everything that is involved you said one thing and afterwords expected something else. I can not go back in time, if i could i would never have agreed to it.
I wish and pray all well and good with you. I also hope that you will be true to your statements and keep taking the best care of these yorkies that you have. They are special creatures. A true gift from the Lord to show us unconditional love. If anything ever makes you change your mind you know that she will ever have a home to come back to, well, any yorkie will ever have a home in our home. I am glad you found YT. There are so many yorkie lovers here. You have a lot to learn from them. I will be glad to answer any of your e-mails as long as it is a civilized non-arguing one. I wish things never had this turn, do not understand how it happened as it seems to be a very long story with many outside opinions... and many others involved that are not even yorkie owners... but it did happen.
Please take this public answer as a proof of our willingness to keep in civilized contact, after all you do have one of our yorkies.
Thanks a lot to all who took the time to read this!

[blueskies]

I am glad both sides have been posted. I believe that really makes a difference and sheds some light onto the situation. There are/were two things that I never understood about the whole thing, and I have followed since the first thread. I really don't understand why, if the buyer was not happy with the way the puppy looked, that she took her in the first place. I highly doubt she changed from the moment she was purchased to the time that the thread was posted after she was in her new home. She did choose to purchase her and knew what she looked like, she wasn't shipped but rather picked up in person. That also leads me to my next after listening to both sides. If the breeder was and is willing to take back the puppy in the first place, and the buyer was not happy with her after she got her home, why did she not just return her for a refund? It is not fair to a breeder for someone to visit a home and choose a puppy, then decide they are not happy with the way the puppy looks but expect the breeder to refund the money AND allow them to keep the dog. Something is just so strange about all this. Maybe I am the only one that feels this way, but I did not post on the original thread for this very reason. It is confusing to me and I don't understand it. That is why I mentioned that the breeder was a Yorkietalk member and hoped that she would post so that we could see both sides. Now I am even more confused!

[rebeccag]

I understand this response was not exactly for my benefit but I will treat it as though it was. First off, I will start by apologizing for having sent any "weird e-mails. Short, impolite and offensive"!!!! Apparently passive aggression is not my forte. It's strange to hear someone comment on something that I've said or done in that manner...that's a first for me as I have had many "firsts" since Ksena. If you had put the same effort into answering my questions as you did in opening your side of the situation this would have never happened and I honestly never wanted it to come to this that's why I didn't post your name in the original thread. I have been truly offended and felt as though I was taken advantage of.

I'm not sure what has changed your mind in reference to being sorry about letting me have a few litters with Ksena other than the fact that I realize she shouldn't be bred at all? Not following you there because I could have used one of your males once or twice???

As far as the controversial registration situation that I would like some clarification on, I filled out the paperwork with my address and proper name so that you could have them send it to me and you registered her to yourself and added to her name (and not the name of your line as some breeders do)...I don't want to get into arguing but I've asked you legitimate questions with no response. It's insulting to me to have you insinuate that the complaint I had with the ACA registration was due to a $17.00 fee. I'm very curious about who the owner of Ksena's mother is, where she came from and why the registration was changed???? I guess, through this I've developed a trust issue and have genuine concern about where Ksena came from. How can she be a "stud pay" if she's your dog or your aunt's dog (confused about that now too).

Also, I had responded to an ad you had stating Champion bloodline Yorkies. True I never mentioned it because I was not interested in showing at that time. I was looking to buy either an ACA (or AKC) breeder female because they can be dual registered. Also true, that I didn't mind that my male would probable not be a good stud because they are my pets first and to be honest I thought we would be able to work together on a stud for Ksena until I found YT.

I am known for being easy going but my gosh, my daughter asked me Saturday night when Ksena was having her babies!? I now get the pleasure of explaining to my young daughter who wants to be a veterinarian / pet groomer that we can't have any puppies.

In regards to giving Ksena back, I am not and was never interested in giving Ksena back! I believe the statement referring to keeping the dog and getting a refund was suggested by another member while waiting for test results.

Bottom line, I said I wanted a breeder female, asked for a breeder female and expected to breed a female. Not sure what this means either: "You are so new at the whole yorkie owner and everything that is involved you said one thing and afterwords expected something else. I can not go back in time, if i could i would never have agreed to it."

I have 2 vets that I have an excellent relationship with. If you're ever really concerned about Ksena I would be happy to give you their contact information so that you can rest assure she couldn't be in better hands.
Not sure what this means: "Again, i do not think this lady is a bad pet owner or will not care for animals and neglect them. but if she proved good enough to be a pet owner i should have read that. I would have avoided a lot."


On a MUCH lighter note, I hope that I've acted civilized....thought my husband was the only one who knew I was an animal...

[rebeccag]

Originally Posted by blueskies

I am glad both sides have been posted. I believe that really makes a difference and sheds some light onto the situation. There are/were two things that I never understood about the whole thing, and I have followed since the first thread. I really don't understand why, if the buyer was not happy with the way the puppy looked, that she took her in the first place. I highly doubt she changed from the moment she was purchased to the time that the thread was posted after she was in her new home. She did choose to purchase her and knew what she looked like, she wasn't shipped but rather picked up in person. That also leads me to my next after listening to both sides. If the breeder was and is willing to take back the puppy in the first place, and the buyer was not happy with her after she got her home, why did she not just return her for a refund? It is not fair to a breeder for someone to visit a home and choose a puppy, then decide they are not happy with the way the puppy looks but expect the breeder to refund the money AND allow them to keep the dog. Something is just so strange about all this. Maybe I am the only one that feels this way, but I did not post on the original thread for this very reason. It is confusing to me and I don't understand it. That is why I mentioned that the breeder was a Yorkietalk member and hoped that she would post so that we could see both sides. Now I am even more confused!

I questioned the dogs appearance when I went to pick her up. The breeder told me that her looks would change and that her hair would reach the floor. She has very little hair. I never asked her to keep the puppy and refund the money. Not to mention, I have children to consider....I can't give back an animal for any reason...what do I tell my daughter? Ksena's too ugly to keep...that's sick, right!? I thought Ksena's looks would change as the breeder said they would...

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the other threads...

[SpayToday]

Rebecca, I see why you would be mad, it seems to me like you have been scammed by this breeder. On the other hand,you shouldn't be wanting to breed anymore dogs, esp. considering that they won't be registered with the American Kennel Club or the Canadian Kennel Club....ACA isn't all that great, it's like the CKC(Continental), though I don't think it is quite as bad...if you're seriously interested in become a "breeder", actual "breeding" is the final step to being involved in a breed...IMO, being a "responsible" breeder is not all about breeding, your dogs have to have show(not with Yorkies but with Rottweilers, working credentials) credentials. I know if I were to buy from a breeder, I wouldn't even email or call them if they didn't show or work thier dogs. JMHO!!

Smartpuppiepets, I can see your side of the story, but your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me.

To everyone- I love how breeders who do a Google search on their name come on here & defend themselves if there's like, one or two complaints against them! I, being a newbee myself, don't take them seriously. I also don't take the people who "pretend" to know these breeders & defend them...when it is probably the breeder posing as a friend.

Anyone who take ME seriously-I was a breeder of Pomeranians back in the day...I feel very justified to answer & respond to breeding ?'s...

EDIT-Sorry if my spelling & wording is kooky, I've had a long day & I am totally exhausted & it's only 8:56PM!

[FlDebra]

Rebecca was up front (both by her posts and the puppy's owner admission here) that she wanted to breed yorkies and that she wanted a breeding female when she purchased Kseena!

This breeder/owner (not sure what to call her as the parentage of Kseena is still not clear) knew that Rebecca's male was not breeding quality. She posted: " She had previously described her male to me. By her descriptions i pictured her male as having very short legs, bulky head and lots of cottony hair. Again, at the time our female seem to make sense to be a possible match for her male if she was ever to decide to breed them once in her life as she wanted,..." Her description of the male is definately not what any responsible breeder would determine to be breeding quality. Then she tried to pass off Kseena as "breeding quality" although her post makes it clear she is not "show quality" -- I would like to know what the difference is there? If she does not meet the standards, then she should not be bred. She also tried to tell Rebecca that Kseena's appearance was normal for a Yorkie and she would change over time. Yorkies do change their appearance more than any other dogs I have known, but any responsible breeder could look at Kseena and see she was not going to be a breeding quality dog.

Registering the dog in her own name was an evasive move. Who does that when the new owner has already filled out the paperwork in their name, address, and the preferred dog name? And why would they unless they were thinking to obscure the parentage/owner trail?

I know Rebecca knows she made mistakes and would do things differently. She trusted the breeder as many of us have done here. I have to admit, I had to go on trust with the first breeder I dealt with too. I had done some reading but nothing can give you all the experience you need to pick a breeding puppy up front. You have to put some trust in other people. I think she ran into a breeder that just wanted to sell a pup. She had to know that dog was not breeding material, yet she sold it to Rebecca anyway. I can't see any way around that being wrong.

We all have some responsibility when we buy our Yorkies, but I doubt many of us here knew everything to look out for, everything to ensure is in the contract, everything to check for a puppy that will likely be in standard, everything to beware of being duped. I know I did not. I have learned a LOT since coming to YT. It is easy after being here for a long time to think everyone should know these things, even when most of us (outside of the seasoned breeders) did not before joining. I think someone new should be able to expect a little integrity from a breeder, especially after they established a relationship over time. Sure we all know now not to trust what every breeder says about their dog's potential -- but wouldn't it be a nice world if we could?

[rebeccag]

Thank you for understanding and putting into better words why I'm so upset. I hate to keep complaining about the same thing but after watching Animal Planet with my daughter all day Saturday and then she asked me about the puppies I just had to post again...

Don't misunderstand, I love Ksena. She's literally my shadow. I feel conflicted everytime I post about this subject because my feelings about the situation are so negative but on the other hand I love her so much...

Thanks to those who have listened to me vent!!!!

[FlDebra]

I'm sorry -- I just realized I have been spelling your little girl's name wrong. I think I have used the double "e" all along. I will make sure to get Ksena's name correct from now on. Is it pronouced with a long "e" sound? I love unusual names but always wind up giving my pets such simple ones. I mean how much simpler can you get than Ben? LOL! Must be so I get the spelling right at least most of the time. Thanks for not getting aggravated about it.

For what it's worth, I do think most things happen for a reason. It could be that for reasons that may never make themselves clear to us, this was not a good time for you to get into breeding. Maybe there is going to be a more opportune time in your near future? Maybe you were just meant to provide a loving home to Ksena, who may not meet every standard but obviously still has the potential to win over your family's hearts. I have tried to wonder about losing my sweet Sadie with her last litter. I know I learned from it, but surely that cannot be all there is to it. I have decided that I will know when the time is right to think about breeding again, if it ever is. It may be that it is not to be for me. But I do know I will eventually get another girl, just not sure I will breed again. I bet, a time will come for you to get another female too. You will know when it is right.

[rebeccag]

No problem! I think that's the first time you spelled it incorrectly...if not, I never noticed it. We pronounce her name like: Kasena (short e) because I like the way it sounds but I believe it's suppose to be pronounced like: Sena (short e). I chose the name because of it's meaning: Praise to God. I felt like if I ever forgot to praise Him I'd do it every time I said her name. Lazy way of praying I guess...Which does make me think of something else...I was just outside thinking about all this and I have to admit a little bit of guilt came over me and after reading the last paragraph you wrote I have no choice but to admit it...I always pray before any big decision making and I did pray about getting Ksena and I believed I got my answer. I know, shame on me! I am only human and I guess I let the situation allow me to be a bit ridiculous. I am thankful I have her and I wouldn't trade her in for a show/breeder Yorkie. I don't know, maybe I have been an animal...and, thanks again for your post and helping me put things in proper perspective! Positive proof everything happens for a reason...

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I'm sorry -- I just realized I have been spelling your little girl's name wrong. I think I have used the double "e" all along. I will make sure to get Ksena's name correct from now on. Is it pronouced with a long "e" sound? I love unusual names but always wind up giving my pets such simple ones. I mean how much simpler can you get than Ben? LOL! Must be so I get the spelling right at least most of the time. Thanks for not getting aggravated about it.

For what it's worth, I do think most things happen for a reason. It could be that for reasons that may never make themselves clear to us, this was not a good time for you to get into breeding. Maybe there is going to be a more opportune time in your near future? Maybe you were just meant to provide a loving home to Ksena, who may not meet every standard but obviously still has the potential to win over your family's hearts. I have tried to wonder about losing my sweet Sadie with her last litter. I know I learned from it, but surely that cannot be all there is to it. I have decided that I will know when the time is right to think about breeding again, if it ever is. It may be that it is not to be for me. But I do know I will eventually get another girl, just not sure I will breed again. I bet, a time will come for you to get another female too. You will know when it is right.

[smartpuppiepets]

It may be better to bring this discussion in the open for many other reasons... beyond our mutual understanding...
I never offended you or meant to if i did. We did have so many over the phone conversations before you came over to see the dogs, but i only had the true feeling on how new the whole yorkie dog and breeding is new for you after i read the other thread you started. That is the reason i said and insist i read the wrong signs. I did get the idea that you were sure of what you wanted. You did first contacted me about my litter of puppies and by our first phone conversation it became clear that the female advertised was not a match for what you wanted based on info you gave me and i was clear that she was a tiny, that was on the ad as well.That was the champion blooded female... But you mentioned an ACA registered is what you wanted since your male was ACA.
You keep bringing up the hair in Ksena... Ksena's mom looked just like that when she was a baby, she belongs to someone in my family, healthy, sweet as you saw her here and so smart and beautiful, we love her. She is ACA registered and the father is dual registered. So the offspring can only be registered aca. ksena's ears went up on her own and that is a good thing... even that you questioned, but as far as everyone knows that has always been a good thing in yorkies!
A stud pay works like this: when you breed your male, you either get paid in money or in a puppy. Since her mom is not mine i got a puppy from the litter and that is ksena. Therefore the reason i am listed on her papers as the owner/breeder. Again, i called ACA and all you have to do is pay the ownership transfer fee. She is already registered With the name you gave her and it is common for breeders to add a "last name", but she has the name you gave her, if you feel that i should pay the 17.oo to have her transferred to your name i will give you that just to end this. I am still not sure of what else you do not understand about that.
Your short and weird e-mails were just ... weird. You left here very happy with your puppies, than ... somewhere in a few days your e-mails changed. I only figured out some of the reasons after i read your other thread... i am not a psychic... your e-mails changed from our normal conversations to weird ones... just go back to them and you will understand what i mean. And apologies accepted but not what i wanted. As i mentioned before we have a great relationship with everyone who gets to own one of our puppies... i sincerely wish the same with you. In no moment i did have any doubts about you been able to love and care for ksena. If i did i would have gone after to take her back already!
Maybe you did put a lot of effort on our phone conversations to prove to me that you were sure of what you wanted, and for that i give you credit, i totally believed you were so sure of what you wanted and same when you came over. You were very happy with ksena ! The change on how you felt about her came few days later and that you have to admit. But instead of been open with me you started with the weird e-mails...
Now there is something else going on that i can not let pass... If you do pray before you do anything so do I. And since i found out about your threads here through someone else that have our puppies. she was shocked and called me, her yorkie is a healthy gorgeous 6 years old... she knows me for that long and she knows a few other owners of our puppies... i began to pray about this whole thing too. I did not post any answer before i prayed about it a lot.... I hope i answered finally any questions you may have had. I am so sorry if i kept from going into arguing with you and you got the wrong image. I do not go into arguing with nobody, it does not yield anything good! If you had mentioned you wanted to take ksena back from the first day it would have been done already. I have no reason to try to force you or anyone to keep a puppy they do not want to. I never had a hard time placing any of our puppies either. And i am very thankful to always know that we make good to a lot of people and families. As i mentioned to you before, yorkies do show me how unconditional love is, and that for me is a gift! God is the source of unconditional love and i believe he gave me the grace to have these doggies so i can feel his love and pass it to others.
If there is anything else i could be of help please let me know. I do not check Yorkie Talk often, sometimes i do not visit here for weeks... i do love it and i came over as often as i can, but sometimes i just have no time. You do have my e-mail, you also have my home phone number that you can call at any time, actually you should have called and I told you this before when you first picked up ksena and i confirm that again.
If for anything else that i may not know i have offended you i apologize as it was never my intentions and honestly i can not think of it, but if i did it, please accept my apologies.
Again, if ksena needs to come back any time, she has doors open and i do not even need to be explained.
I wish and hope and pray all goes well with you and your family, humans and furry kids.

A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.
Proverbs 12:9-11

[rebeccag]

For anyone still interested, the breeder and I have been in contact. I think it's safe to say we do have different oppinions. More importantly, I now believe that this was a mutual misunderstanding. I wish I could delete this entire thread but it's impossible to do and not really fair to the people involved and interested. I should have never posted this because it should have been dealt with in private and this situation would have been avoided.