pedigree help

[Sugar's Mom]

I have been bouncing on and off this thread all day. it's a good thing my hubby is gone today. You ladies are a storehouse of info. Thanks so much.

[Saleswman]

Jan is the originator of the Burgandy line of Yorkies.....she is no longer breeding Yorkies and is involved with Chihuaha(sp)? now. The lines you spoke of are very familar. Both Pastoral and Shakespear are a very nice line as far as I am concerned.

I would be honored to have all of those in ONE Yorkie....maybe I will one day.......soon....

Good luck to you!

SHirley

[yorkykisses]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

You are absolutely correct but there is more to it. For example, a very reputable show breeder could sell a dog to someone or allow someone a stud service to a nice male. THat breeder who got puppies out of the breedings now have that kennel name in their pedigree.
Now suppose that breeder with these puppies sells a puppy to someone they trust. Now suppose that breeder who bought this puppy does do business with an unreputable breeder (unknown to them at the time) or if they kept a male puppy that eventually becomes a stud dog, studs a bitch for someone who they don't know as well as they thought.
That next breeder down the line can then be selling anything with any claims they want to make because that very good kennel is indeed in the pedigree but certainly not with the permission or desires of the original very good show kennel that has that name.
Problem? Well the problem is that it is possible for the disreputable breeder to get that line but they are breeding the Yorkies they own that may not be very good or may not be from ethical backgrounds.
If you are going to be impressed with pedigrees, know who you are dealing with. I get very suspicious of sellers that sell with the claims of Champions in the pedigree and rattle off good kennel names in the pedigree who they have never even met and certainly those show breeders would not ever consider breeding to any of their dogs or selling them anything.
I'll try to explain further or better.
I have Pastoral, Yorkboro, and Durrer in my pedigrees which my pedigrees are becoming more and more also my kennel name as I put championships on my dogs and have them in my breeding program.
However, I know each of these breeders, went to Lorraine myself for the stud services, also to Doreen for a stud service and the breedings I did has Pastoral and Yorkboro anyway as they know each other and are good friends.
Durrer, I know Betty Anne and also dealt directly with her.
Terminology is that I got these lines through the front door. In other words, by dealing directly with the breeders involved. When I bought Tommy, he was a lot of Durrer behind him and some Aero. I knew both breeders and asked them if it was okay with them if I bought Tommy from his breeder who had also checked with both Durrer and Aero that it was okay for me to buy Tommy. I wanted to make sure they knew I was getting their lines although not directly from them but they were fine as I had gotten a stud service from Durrer before this and have since bred to an Aero dog the breeder has.
Going through the back door means that certain kennel names are now in someones pedigree without the knowledge or certainly the okay of the breeder that owns that kennel name. SOmewhere along the line a trust was broken, dogs or stud services were sold where they shouldn't have been on open papers
Most of the time you will see that reputable kennel name way back there somewhere.
Look at the pedigree itself. Is the breeder you are buying from showing their dogs, do they have their own line established with some of their own champion dogs or getting there? Or are they just selling puppies on the names of other show breeders who did the work had the good dogs bred to the standard, only to have them end up in a third or fourth generation of someone who doesn't know a thing.
And you wonder why show breeders are so cautious with refusing stud services and not selling on open papers and indeed, many are selling spay/neutered before it goes out the door.
Me for example as I hope no one ever gets a hold of any of my kennel name that I wouldn't want them to have it as my kennel name carries some very nice lines behind it and I wouldn't want those kennel names in the wrong places either.

Lorraine,
My husband and I headed South for the day on Monday. We ran accross a Petland and have never been in one, so my husband and I thought we would check it out. For one thing I could not believe the quality of these poor puppy mill dogs and all they wanted was alittle love! I honestly could have purchased everyone of them and rescued them from this pet store. They had one yorkie female and I ask to see her info and when I looked at her pedigree I could not believe what I seen! In the third generation there where well known AKC champions! From breeders that are very picky about where their puppies are placed. I am quite positive what you have used as an example above happened in this situation. I believe that in today's breeding society alot of breeders breed for the money and the better the pedigree they can advertise the more money they can put into their pockets! I also could not believe how many prospective pet owners that go to pet stores do not realize the puppies are coming from puppy mills and not descent reputable breeders. After leaving Petland we headed home and all I could think about was those poor dogs I left behind at the pet store.

[yorkykisses]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I'm a few years behind you, but feel pretty blessed to have found my mentor with a great line.

When I first started I did not find a mentor and tried to do things on my own. I soon found out that is not the way to do it. Many people will take advantage of you and sell you something that is not the quality that you want to take into a showring let alone breed. I do have show breeders that live close by, but I did not want them to think I only wanted a dog from them. I wanted to earn their respect. We have since became friends and I have great admiration for them and their program. I have them look over my dogs and puppies, I want to only contribute to the yorkshire terrier breed! I go along to dogs shows with them and take in every bit of their knowledge they are willing to share with me! I wish that I had went to them in the very beginning. To me a reputable mentor is a requirement in the show world.

You are exactly right concerning the internet as well! The internet makes the world a very small one and when one does something that is looked down upon in the show world it does not take long for it to spread like wild fire! And you will spend a very long time trying to rebuild what little reputation you have if you ever rebuild it!

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by yorkykisses

Lorraine,
My husband and I headed South for the day on Monday. We ran accross a Petland and have never been in one, so my husband and I thought we would check it out. For one thing I could not believe the quality of these poor puppy mill dogs and all they wanted was alittle love! I honestly could have purchased everyone of them and rescued them from this pet store. They had one yorkie female and I ask to see her info and when I looked at her pedigree I could not believe what I seen! In the third generation there where well known AKC champions! From breeders that are very picky about where their puppies are placed. I am quite positive what you have used as an example above happened in this situation. I believe that in today's breeding society alot of breeders breed for the money and the better the pedigree they can advertise the more money they can put into their pockets! I also could not believe how many prospective pet owners that go to pet stores do not realize the puppies are coming from puppy mills and not descent reputable breeders. After leaving Petland we headed home and all I could think about was those poor dogs I left behind at the pet store.

That is exactly what I am talking about. If the reputable kennels were in the third generation then the breakdown in trust would have been in the second generation or possibly the first generation. And what you described is exactly what happened, some puppies get sold that have pedigrees going back to very nice dogs from reputable kennels and those puppies being sold along with the pedigrees end up being sold in Petland where we know where they get their wares from, puppymills.

[yorkykisses]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

That is exactly what I am talking about. If the reputable kennels were in the third generation then the breakdown in trust would have been in the second generation or possibly the first generation. And what you described is exactly what happened, some puppies get sold that have pedigrees going back to very nice dogs from reputable kennels and those puppies being sold along with the pedigrees end up being sold in Petland where we know where they get their wares from, puppymills.

Lorraine,
Other than one of your puppies ending up in a bad home situation the only other thing a reputable breeder/show breeder would never want is for their line to end up in a pet store or puppy mill! I have begun to only register what I keep back and alter my puppies before they leave for a pet home. There are to many people out there that will tell you what you want to hear and lie to you like it is nothing just to try and get a dog from you.

[Amber_lv]

Do you guys have a harder time selling your puppies with a spay neuter contract/limited reg? Do people still want to buy with that? just curious.

[Olivier]

Originally Posted by Amber_lv

Do you guys have a harder time selling your puppies with a spay neuter contract/limited reg? Do people still want to buy with that? just curious.

I stopped placing spay/neuter contract after a bad experience . All the puppies that I don't keep for myself are spayed / neutered before leaving my home . I never had problems with selling my pups .

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Amber_lv

Do you guys have a harder time selling your puppies with a spay neuter contract/limited reg? Do people still want to buy with that? just curious.

I don't plan a breeding without having a home ready for the pups that I don't keep. My prospective new families are looking for companion yorkies and find that not having to deal with the spay/nuetering process themselves is a relief. The bottom line is the pups are mine, if people don't like my terms, they can go elsewhere.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I don't plan a breeding without having a home ready for the pups that I don't keep. My prospective new families are looking for companion yorkies and find that not having to deal with the spay/nuetering process themselves is a relief. The bottom line is the pups are mine, if people don't like my terms, they can go elsewhere.

I completely agree with you .

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by yorkykisses

Lorraine,
Other than one of your puppies ending up in a bad home situation the only other thing a reputable breeder/show breeder would never want is for their line to end up in a pet store or puppy mill! I have begun to only register what I keep back and alter my puppies before they leave for a pet home. There are to many people out there that will tell you what you want to hear and lie to you like it is nothing just to try and get a dog from you.

Actually there is a third one I do not want to happen. I will not sell a puppy on open papers and sell only spayed neutered because I do not want someone to get one of my dogs to just breed and sell puppies, who do not know much about the breed and don't care that much. They do not show, never intend to. They are breeding pet quality and producing puppies so far from looking like Yorkies it is hard to recognize what breed they are or if they are actually crosses.
There are many that will pretend to want to be show breeders but have no intention, only want to get a hold of the bloodlines that are good ones for no other reason than to sell puppies.
I also do not want my lines in the hands of show breeders who will stud their dogs to just anyone or sell to just anyone for breeding and do not protect their lines. That could put my kennel name and those kennel names in my pedigrees in the wrong hands and will show up in the second third or fourth generation in a poor quality breeders puppy.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Amber_lv

Do you guys have a harder time selling your puppies with a spay neuter contract/limited reg? Do people still want to buy with that? just curious.

I guess that would depend on your point of view. My purpose when I do a breeding is not to fill a pet market in the first place. Although the Yorkie is now considered to be #2 in popularity in the US according to just released statistics, I will tell you that the numbers of good home puppy enquiries that I would be willing to sell to, are about the same as I had 10 years ago. Yes, I get multitude enquiries, phone, emails, referrals, but with the popularity of the breed there are so many that are not good homes for one reason or the other.
The people that buy my puppies are very happy they do not have to worry about spay/neuter the puppy is not real young, greater than six months, and so much easier for them to housebreak and enjoy.
For those who want a puppy very young they are more than welcome to go elsewhere.
Interestingly enough, I get some enquiries that are more than happy to have one of puppies, age, size, male, female etc that is until they find out my nonbreeding contract is that it is already spay/neutered.

[YorkieRose]

It depends on eho you want as yoru puppy owners...I pefer mine to be pets..so I place with pet owners and not breeders, unless it is a close friend.

[CO_yorkie_momma]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I think Johnny has, 66 Champions in the US alone, that's not counting Canada and other parts of the World. Rothby's Reputation as of Dec 05 - Jan 06 has sired 28....I'm sure there are more.....

The pedigree I got from the breeder I bought Louie from says 71 Ch Get 1996 for Rothby's Renee'gade. That is probably worldwide though. I would like to know if that is an accurate number or not.

[cutiepieyorkies]

can anyone tell me much about the pedigrees in my male cha and female kiki i bought them both from the show kennel and breeder both pedigrees are on my website i have alot of rothbys also