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Old 04-14-2006, 10:22 PM   #1
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Default S/N Contracts?

Are they truly legally binding in anyway?

A good friend is looking for a pup but the problem is that they don't want to have to nueter their perspective puppy and the breeders that have available pups now and in the not-so-distant future all have S/N contracts.

I am torn. I will always S/N my dogs. But I have heard and can understand their point of view for not wanting to. It does seem hypocritical for a *breeder* to say that you can't ever breed your dog mean while they're breeding away. Am I missing something?
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:45 PM   #2
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I'm not a breeder but I see why some insist on s/n in their contracts. I would. Imagine years of painstaking care (not to mention blood, sweat and tears) to develop the best dogs possible and then someone comes along and ruins that in the blink of an eye with bad breeding. There would be nothing you could do to stop them.
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Old 04-15-2006, 07:14 AM   #3
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Who's to say that if they did choose to breed the Yorkie that they bought, that the buyers wouldn't have the breeds best interest at heart? If someone just wanted to breed the pup for the income, there are hundreds of dogs that are usually cheaper and don't come with the application and interview processes nor a S/N contract that a breeder dog does in pet stores and in the Sunday ads, I would think that those are the animals that those people would gravitate towards. Do these breeders with S/N contracts not realize that they're actually pushing some perfectly good homes away and to the puppy mills and shady breeders because of this? It would seem like that would not be in the best interest of the breed.
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Old 04-15-2006, 07:31 AM   #4
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If you're friends don't want to spay/neuter, I have no problem w/ that! I think that those on a spay/neuter contract should be able to choose when they want to have the surgery done also. I think that to spay/neuter a dog before it's around 14-16 months is just asanine. It has nothing to do w/ the dog going through it's first heat, that just happens, it has everything to do w/ physical and mental maturity. I've got a FABULOUS link I'd like you all to read up on!
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

I agree w/ this vet completely and would have to say that my experience is the same based on the observation of many dogs over the years as a dog trainer.

Yeah, there is the problem of dealing w/ someone that breeds even though they say they won't. One way to help encourage those to not breed their dogs is to deny them their pedigree until the dog is spayed/neutered (which is legal, just put it in your contract) and/or offer a cash insentive (money back) once they can verify that the dog has been spayed/neutered.

I think it should be the buyers choice WHEN to do it and the breeders choice whether it should be done or not!
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Old 04-15-2006, 09:04 AM   #5
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We get many post about males who are marking..infact until about 15 years ago I found it hard to sell males at times..then my vet started telling me that neutered males for the most part did not mark..so I tried it and it worked...and NO ONE wanted to get rid of a male for peeing. When I explained how wonderful neutered males were, everyone wanted one...and they were very pleased with their boys...

There are plenty of breeders who do not care what you do with their pups, so it should not be hard to find one.
Breeders are free to make their own rules, the buyer is free to say, yes or no...
What I may think is a pet, another might think is breed quality...it would be totally unfair to me to breed my pet quality..I placed it as a pet.
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Old 04-15-2006, 09:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRose
We get many post about males who are marking..infact until about 15 years ago I found it hard to sell males at times..then my vet started telling me that neutered males for the most part did not mark..so I tried it and it worked...and NO ONE wanted to get rid of a male for peeing. When I explained how wonderful neutered males were, everyone wanted one...and they were very pleased with their boys...

There are plenty of breeders who do not care what you do with their pups, so it should not be hard to find one.
Breeders are free to make their own rules, the buyer is free to say, yes or no...
What I may think is a pet, another might think is breed quality...it would be totally unfair to me to breed my pet quality..I placed it as a pet.
Well said Pat!! You are so wise...
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Old 04-15-2006, 10:14 AM   #7
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Perhaps if your friend expressed her concerns to the breeders, they would not insist on a contract and would just sell with limited registration. It never hurts to ask.
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Old 04-15-2006, 10:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyla_nBridgette
Are they truly legally binding in anyway?

A good friend is looking for a pup but the problem is that they don't want to have to nueter their perspective puppy and the breeders that have available pups now and in the not-so-distant future all have S/N contracts.

I am torn. I will always S/N my dogs. But I have heard and can understand their point of view for not wanting to. It does seem hypocritical for a *breeder* to say that you can't ever breed your dog mean while they're breeding away. Am I missing something?

If a breeder does not consider this pup to be a good example of the breed, they may not want you to breed it because they do not want their line of dogs associated with a not so perfect one. their Kennel would be listed in any potential offsprings pedigree. So in essence they do have a legitimate concern. But they can sell with a limited registration so your dog does not have to have surgery.
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Old 04-15-2006, 01:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyla_nBridgette
Who's to say that if they did choose to breed the Yorkie that they bought, that the buyers wouldn't have the breeds best interest at heart? If someone just wanted to breed the pup for the income, there are hundreds of dogs that are usually cheaper and don't come with the application and interview processes nor a S/N contract that a breeder dog does in pet stores and in the Sunday ads, I would think that those are the animals that those people would gravitate towards. Do these breeders with S/N contracts not realize that they're actually pushing some perfectly good homes away and to the puppy mills and shady breeders because of this? It would seem like that would not be in the best interest of the breed.
If they are just buying with the intention of breeding, then I will argue that they do not have the best interest at heart for the Yorkie. There is a lot more to it that just bringing together a male and female to produce puppies. If I did not have a spay/neuter contract, in my opinion, I would become another shady breeder.
You see, I have spay/neuter contracts because any litter I have is planned to hopefully produce a show dog for me. It doesn't always work out for each pup that may be in a litter and I decide it is a pet quality. As I went through all the trouble and considerable expense to show my dogs, immerse myself in the breed and study what a good Yorkie should look like, pay stud fees for good show dog males that I bred my girl to, to hopefully produce a show puppy, I have no reason to sell a puppy that I consider a pet quality to someone else to breed and ruin the work I have done as well as those quality breeders that have entrusted me with their dogs that now appear in pedigrees of my dogs.
Did you know that the breeders that have these dogs that I use their studs have me sign a contract that says I cannot sell a pup from this breeding on any open papers, they must be spay/neuter contracts? I can keep what I wish for myself for the show rings and eventually to use in my breeding program. I have no problem with this contract as I am not about to allow someone else to breed a dog or bitch of mine that I would not consider should be used in a breeding program.
Any pup I sell is my responsibility not only to my kennel name but every kennel name that appears in the pedigree of that pup as those show breeders have entrusted me with their lines. I will not betray that trust.
If you want a pet puppy, spay/neutering should not be an issue. If you want to breed then get into showing so you learn how to contribute towards the betterment of the breed. A show dog is not going to be $1200 or $1500, you will be looking at starting at $3000.
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Old 04-15-2006, 01:29 PM   #10
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Ok...tell me what it is called when you have a bitch that is maybe good enough to show.....and you work and finish the bitch, and because you respect this breeder so much you allow her to choose the stud, to better her line of course....and she gets the "pick" of the litter........is that the norm these days?

Or just a nice agreement between two people willing to maintain the breed standard.....
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Old 04-15-2006, 01:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyla_nBridgette
It does seem hypocritical for a *breeder* to say that you can't ever breed your dog mean while they're breeding away. Am I missing something?

I dont see it that way. For whatever reason that this or any particular breeder would sale a pet, it's most likely due to the fact that the dog is not needed or useful within their breeding progam. Upon that conclusion, they then seek a nice pet companion home for the dog. With that being said, the dog is more than likely not what they'd consider a proven quality to be use for breeding. It's not so much that they are saying that another prospective purchaser CANT breed; it's more like, this or that particular dog is not one that they'd use for breeding within their line. That is understandable when considering their purpose and what they are striving for.

Another way to look at it: All dogs have faults; however, some faults breeders are willing to work with, attempting to improve upon. Perhaps, this particular dog had faults that the breeder deemed to gone to even try to improve upon. In this case, the dog wouldn't be useful within a breeding program for those seeking to enrich the breeds quality. Neither the breeder nor the new owner should use this dog in a breeding program. The dog is then sold as a pet and the only way to the is to be assured that the dog would not be used for breeding is through an agreement; i.e. limited registration, S/N prior to placing, and/or S/N contract.

Are they binding?: Well, that just depends on the state/counties' laws, how it was writen out, and sometimes by whom.
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Old 04-15-2006, 01:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saleswman
Ok...tell me what it is called when you have a bitch that is maybe good enough to show.....and you work and finish the bitch, and because you respect this breeder so much you allow her to choose the stud, to better her line of course....and she gets the "pick" of the litter........is that the norm these days?

Or just a nice agreement between two people willing to maintain the breed standard.....
I am not totally sure of the question but I will give a bit of what I would agree to or expect. When I am seeking a stud service, I pay a stud fee agreeing not to sell anything under open papers or co-own under open papers but can keep what I wish for myself.
I do not agree to give the owner of the stud a puppy back. If that is a requirement, I move on elsewhere and do not sign a contract. I would not sign any contract unless I am in full agreement with all items in the contract. I move on.
If I agree to a stud service of my male to someone's bitch, my contract is also, they can keep what they wish for themselves but are not to sell or co-own under open papers. If there is a pup I may be interested in from that breeding, we can agree to a purchase price that I pay in keeping with what I might be buying, show dog or show prospect and there is a difference. I would not expect to pay or receive a puppy back plus a stud fee.
As an aside, on the topic of contracts, if you are willing to sign it you should fully understand what you are signing and abide by it. It is called ethics.
In the world of Yorkies, it has become rather small with the Internet. As a show breeder, if I signed a contract and broke it, I am toast, no one reputable would deal with me. Which is fine because I would never have any intention of breaking a contract anyway.
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Old 04-15-2006, 02:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorraine
If they are just buying with the intention of breeding, then I will argue that they do not have the best interest at heart for the Yorkie.
They have no intentions of breeding, they just have their own reasons for not wanting to neuter their pet. I have my dog and will spay her at around 14 months, or just after her first heat, per my own research and opinion. I have no interest in "arguing" something that I'm not involved with, I'm just posing a question in general.

From my view, I also don't see how breeders are going to tell you that you shouldn't do what they do. (I was never a fan of the "Do as I say, not as I do!" school of thought and that's an apparent fault on me, my most sincere apologees.) To elaborate:

For whatever reason, you want a show dog. That's fine. It's great to have a breed standard and strive to better that breed. But was every dog in your dogs' lineage a perfect example of a Yorkie? I am, by no means an expert, but I would think that you could breed any good dog (barring genetic defects) up to produce a show dog over the generations. For example, male with a slight over bite but great stance + female with perfect bite and okay stance = what might turn out to be "show quality" dogs - ? I find it hard to believe that you absolutely could not take a $1,200 dog and breed them selectively with another $1,200 dog and then go through a few more generations of selective breeding with the same price-range and get a show dog eventually. And I don't see how that would be any different aside from the overhead costs. I'm sure there's a good amount of studying to be done, but who are the breeders to say that the buyers couldn't or wouldn't do it? Were the breeders here born breeding dogs? No? you had to study and learn, right? Then what's wrong if someone else wants to do the same? Is it not possible to want to better the breed without actually prancing around in a ring?
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Old 04-15-2006, 02:46 PM   #14
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My friends are perfectly okay with limited registration, they're even okay with no registration (CKC lets you register any dog at 6 months for a fee and with pictures showing that the dog is the breed that you say he is, so if they really wanted a paper to frame, voila`!) but they find that they're being forced into breeding contracts at every turn and they're just not cool with the neutering thing.

No one is planning on breeding, it just brought up the question of, "Well, what if...". It seems like the breeders aren't keeping a lot of these slightly faulted dogs because if they kept everyone one of them to work on their traits, they'd quickly find themselves buried under Yorkies!

(And, for the record, I can understand no breeder would want to look at him: http://samugliestdog.com/ and say proudly, "Yep. I produced that!" )
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Old 04-15-2006, 02:48 PM   #15
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I'm going to take a stab at your questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyla_nBridgette
But was every dog in your dogs' lineage a perfect example of a Yorkie?

No, but the ones who weren't were fixed. It's the responsible thing to do to make SURE no accidents happen

but who are the breeders to say that the buyers couldn't or wouldn't do it?

I don't think breeders are saying that buyers can't or shouldn't breed. But they are saying that they can't buy their dogs and breed them. Many breeding-quality males can be found in the price range of $1200 from breeders who would sell w/ full registration. Why not go elsewhere? Yorkie breeders are a dime a dozen. GOOD breeders are priceless.



Were the breeders here born breeding dogs?

No, but the puppies are their property and they can decide that they don't want them bred/want them altered if they so choose.

Is it not possible to want to better the breed without actually prancing around in a ring?

My answer to this would be "no, it's not truly possible. But many others would argue otherwise. My dog is not a show dog. He's not even close. I would only breed him if he were a champ or has SERIOUS champ qualities
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