I hope im never faced with that . But I would do it too. But only if the female died. I could not do it with her alive. But I hope I m never faced with that problem.

This has turned out to be one of the most seriously informative threads I have read in a long time.

Pat, your solution is a good one. You can always make sure you have valium or some other similar medication on hand. Not sure I would've ever thought of it on my own.

I'm not sure if I lost the mother if I'd be strong enough to do my own c-section, but if I could feel babies moving around in there or hear heartbeats, it might be enough incentive to try. I know I'd be sobbing the whole time.

A story on freezing
 

On the topic of freezing , let me share a story with you. I used to raise and train NSTRA Brittanys for 15 years and had several champions. One spring we had a female that had a litter of puppies. They were about 2 weeks old and were all doing great. The doghouses in kennels had heating welping boxes. One morning i went out to check and feed the dogs and saw a puppy laying in the snow right at the edge of the doghouse door, she must have accidently drug it out. I picked it up and it was froze, stiff and cold,It was dead. so I brought it in the house and wrapped it in a towel and a bag and layed it on the dryer at my back door so i could bury it later when it warmed up a bit.
I was doing laundry so the dryer was running. about 2 hours later i keep hearing a faint crying, Finally I figured out what it was , It was the pup, she had come back I guess with the heat and all she warmed up and I guess miracles happen. I rushed her to the vet and he said she would be ok except she had major frostbite on her toes and one ear. Over the course of her next few weeks her feet were wrapped and kept on meds . She never cried or acted like she was in pain , she lost most of her toes an half of her ear. We named her Frosty. At about 3months old was given to a wonderful family that kept her in the house.Frosty grew to be a great dog and lived a happy full life and was an avid hunter and loved it. So anyway what my point is that if you put the puppy in the freezer dont assume it dies fast because Frosty didnt die after being outside in the snow for hours and hours.

Me too. I remember you and I discussing this on a thread in the past and I was truly looking inside myself to know if I actually could do that if I had to. I do think I could. I perform best when under pressure, so I'd probably be ok during. It would be afterwards when it would really get to me. But losing the mom AND the entire litter would be worse for me. So I would have to say that yes, I could too.

What an amazing story! That is really something. Gosh, what a lucky little pup that was! Thanks for sharing that.

That was a great story, so unbelievable, it should be in one of those Chicken Soup books. Miracles do happen. :)

That was a very amazing story. And gave more insight on the idea of putting them in a freezer.

The book that I made mention to was written by a vet, and there were other things in the book that I didn't agree with either. But I came to the conclusing that vets in general don't have the emotional attachment that breeders have. They're Dr.s and they look at the practical aspect of dealing with death.

I'm glad that this has turned into a positive post after all.

wow great story !!

also i dont know if most people know but when someone get a transplant and when they take the good organ from someone they put it on ice to keep it alive so organs dont fail in the cold

Jeanie,

As much as people were horrifed that you read a breeder would put a deformed live puppy in the freezer to die, I too, read something in a Yorkie book many years ago that truly horrified me, as much, if not, more. I read that years ago, breeders "culled" a litter, destoying ones that they did not think were quality. For the life of me, I cannot remember the name of the book. Thankfully, today breeders place these wonderful creatures in pet homes, such as mine.

Now, as a wild-life rehabber for over 30 years, let me tell you, that statement haunts my sleep to this day. I

I feel bad for you, that you read such a thing.

Sheila

I have been raising Toy breeds for 24 yrs and if in a very rare case where I could not get to the vet, I would do my best to make the puppy as comfortable as possible until I could get to the vet.
I have never thought of using crushed up meds for that solution but it may be called for in a situation like the one being discussed.
Sometimes people ask "what would you do?" in a paticular situation and sometimes even the most experienced breeders don't know. Sometimes we have to cross that Bridge when we get there and hope the Good Lord will guide us.
Culling I'm sorry to say is still being practiced even by top winning breeders.
They do not want anyone to know that their lines could produce anything less then "perfect", which we all know is impossible.
I had a retired vet compliment me for bragging about my Bugaboo. She said a lot of breeders would not even let a puppy with birth defects and far from a perfect confirmation, let alone let the Whole world about him.
She kept saying it was a compliment because I was being honest about what Any line could produce.
If you want to breed dogs you should always have a Game Plan for all sorts of emergency needs including financial.
Just recently (some of you may already know) I had a mom with severe complications to an emergency c-section. Even if she would be not able to ever produce another pup, she deserved to have any and all medical treament needed to save her life. NO Matter the cost!
Sorry this is so long.

Wow. It just breaks my heart to know that "culling" is still being practiced by some breeders. I would gladly take those puppies and give them a happy home and never breathe a word about their blood-lines, rather than have them destroyed. With wild-life, I know rehabbers that have 'defective' animals and still provide a happy home, as long as they're not in pain.

As far as I'm concerned if it takes 3 days to get to the vet to do a humane euthanize Please DO IT. Leave the puppy alone until you see the VET. [B]Amen[/B]Wouldnt you feel better knowing the vet said you did everything you could to save the babyu

I know of some instances from years ago when breeders were told to put puppies to death in just the manner Jeannie posted. Did I agree with it? NO!!! Could I do it? I have to think on that as I recall the young man who cut off his own hand to save his life. Could I do that? I don't know and I pray I never have to find out.
I, like Pat, have meds. Heck, I am a VERY old nurse so I have a lotta stuff. Years ago I gave a paralyzed ferret 50 mgms of Valium, put it in a box and stowed it safely in a crate to die. I cam e home from work day 1-still alive; day-2 still alive; day 3-no where to be found. I went beserk and yalled at my kids for letting an animal get into the garage to get it. I hear a noise in the midst of all my tantrum and we all looked and here comes the poor baby dragging its little self out from behind the crate..It got well. Vet said the meds probably allowed its spinal cord to heal.
There are a lot of issues in this thread and we each have to deal with them in our own way. I, personally, do not THINK I could euthanize a puppy that way but I also know I could not stand to watch it suffer.. I would do a lot of praying for the wisdom to make the right decision and have the courage to follow thru. Then, wash my Valium down with a huge margarita.

I think it depends on the individual breeder.. I have heard stories of controlled breeding and to me that is NO different then sticking a puppy into a freezer to die (who knows some that practice controlled breeding may use their freezer).. But I would NEVER do either one! I have trained my husband and my neighbor to whelp a litter of puppies if that should arise.. But I am the kind of breeder that wants all my puppies to survive and will do whatever is necessary to help them along.. I do not believe that a smaller frail puppy should not be given a chance to survive! I had an emergency vet tell me one time that the purebred dogs were alot nicer when people practiced controlled breeding, I could of hit him! I believe that if a puppy is born into this world it should be given EVERY opportunity to survive! But if I had to make a decision that the puppy would not survive and it was in the middle of the night or whatever I would pay the money for the emergency call to have the puppy humanly euthanized..

I do think that it was a valid question though, because I have actually heard of breeders practicing this and we cannot learn if we do not ask!

Here's where I don't agree. I don't think it is a valid question! What does one need to learn here? That it is inhumane and sadistic to toss an innocent living thing in the freezer to die?! Sorry, uh-uh, that boat don't float with me. Anyone with a conscience and a preschool education should be able to figure that question out. Sorry if I sound mad, because I am!

I totally said that I disagree with the thought of doing this, let alone do it! But if she read it in a book and decided to ask the question there should not be a problem with that.. This is a forum for people to share and learn and NO we will not all agree with each other, but at least she asked.. She placed it in the breeders thread and NO one should be made to feel that they cannot ask a question without alot of backlash.. Even though the thought of someone actually doing this makes me ill, at least she ask..

It is interesting to read all of this, and it does remind me of years ago and what we were told to do if this ever happened. But this does go on today in the Petco stores and probably many others. It is the way they deal with injured small creatures, they are put in the freezer.
So don't be to hard on the woman that ask the question as she was just trying to learn, and yes it was done and it probably still goes on, I can bet you no puppy mill pays to have a puppy put down.

So tonight we can pray for the puppies. :lovewings :lovewings :lovewings

Debbie Ray
sumtoiyorkies

What one needed to learn here, is that euthanizing is a fact of life. It is a reality that breeders have to deal with. And there may be circumstances where one cannot get to the vet or the vet to them. In a perfect world this would not be a valid question, but this world is not perfect and if you have a puppy born with it's insides exposed and it is in pain, and the mother is not through whelping, and weather conditions do not allow for a rush to the vet. Be realistic these things can and do happen more often than one would like to think.

And FYI I have a bachelors degree, but I did not go to preschool. Skipped that and kindergarten too.

What I have learned from this is it is a topic that breeders do not care to discuss in a forum where there are non breeders because some non breeders like to believe that puppies come into this world all clean and cute and furry and there is never a problem or a tough decision to be made. Maybe even grow inside flowers and the breeders just pick them

I did not assume that the decision to euthanize would ever be taken lightly but it would be my choice over letting the poor little thing lie there in pain. I just wanted to know if breeders used this method or how they did it.

I don't believe you are just mad you are also very nieve

Thank you that is a little more graphic than my scenario, but some of these people are having a tough time with the subtleties so apparently they need a picture, in color.

:clapsmile :clapsmile :clapsmile

Wow, I can't even beging to imagine what I would do. This is why I could never be a breeder. Stuff like this just breaks my heart. :(

And!!! I'm not finished yet.

First the disclaimer.

This is not a put down to anyone who has asked a question, because they did not know the answer. This is for all those who do put down people for asking questions.

I have been criticized, called stupid and uneducated and cruel, by people who are totally ignorant of the hard cruel side of breeding, for repeating something that I read in a book, on breeding, and asking a question about it.

There are members out there who don't understand why a 16 week old puppy is smart enough to demand that they be played with, but yet are not smart enough to ask to be let out to potty.

My question was just as valid as those. And if you want my honest and true opinion on the whole freezing thing. I believe I would shoot it or hit it over the head with a hammer before I would allow it to lie screaming in pain, because if I were screaming in pain and there were no drugs available and no Dr's to be found, I would rather someone shoot me.

Of course I would take it to a vet if it were possible. But anything would be desirable to letting it scream. I'd probably not sleep afterwards, but I would be strong enough to do what I had to do to end the poor things suffering as quickly as possible.

This forum belongs to everyone, not a select few. The members on here with the largest number of posts are not the problem. It's the handful of people that come in with a know it all attitude, that think they need to be cruel and sarcastic to fit in with the "popular kids". Those are the ones that run off any newbie that poses a possible threat to their position. Well kids, we aren't in highschool anymore.

No wonder so many newbies leave. The bullies run them off.

Ok I've said my piece and will get down off of my soapbox. So go ahead and say what you wish. I'm not going away, and those of you who continue with you criticizing are just showing your own ignorance and mentality level.

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. I was seriously considering quitting the forum, until I realized that I would be playing right into their hands.

And thanks to all of you who defended my right to ask a question.

Wow! That took a lot of courage! You should be commended for doing so.
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Way to go!! You are exactly right this is a public forum and it does NOT belong to a select few! Anyone has the right to come to this forum and ask questions and not be in fear of the backlash they may receive.. I commend you for the courage you just showed! ;)

Good for you... :clapsmile :clapsmile :clapsmile

You go girl!

This IS the breeder section of this forum. There are always going to be questions asked that some of you may not like to hear about. If not, then don't. I feel very fortunate to have places to discuss things that breeders are faced with. If I ever have a legitimate question concerning the practices of some breeders whether I agree with it or not, please feel free to skip my thread as I wouldn't want to offend you for my having a brain that tends to be of the curious nature. I enjoy breeding very much. But there is a sad side to it at times that those who aren't involved in it would never understand. I PERSONALLY KNOW SOMEONE WHO'S VET TOLD THEM TO USE THE FREEZOR METHOD OF EUTHANIZING, and it appalled me. Being that I already knew of this practice, I never thought to bring it up. Now that it has been brought up, I am glad it was because for me personally it has opened my eyes on many things. Especially yorkierose's thoughts on the matter. Maybe now I will be able to better educate the breeder that I know who was told by a VET to do this. So again, I say thank you to the orignal poster for bringing it up. One person's post can help many people sometimes whether they even realize it or not. NEVER BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS. There is no other way to learn if you don't.

pup
 

I got a call one time from a Yorkie breeder near me..she had a pup born with its brain on the outside of the skull. It was late, Emergancy wanted $330 to put this pup down...that was insane. I told her to leave it with the mom until morning..she called back, the mom would not stop licking the pups head and it was screaming. I told her to take the pup away from the mom..she called back again! Pup was crying and the mother could hear it no matter where she put it in the house, the mom was frantic..so I got out of bed and took her a pill...the next day she called her MD for a presciption of her own.