I just thought i was having a bad day . This just made me so sick now here i am crying bucket of tears this is just so awful is this really true.

There have been a lot of frank, honest and open discussions in the Breeder Talk forum. Graphic, even.

Breeding puts you face to face with some really awful decisions and I don't think Jeanie was out of line posting the question. The scenario she proposed was real life and she wanted opinions.

What would you do? Leave a mother who's giving birth to drive a puppy to the vet, or would you take them all with you to the vet or would you let it die on it's own? I don't blame the breeders here for not offering up their opinions, because in truth, there are no good answers unless you're a vet and you can administer a humane death.

I personally don't think that this thread was meant to upset anyone. I know that there are alot of crazy things in this crazy world that take place and some people just want other's opinions and answers. I replied back on page one with my honest answer and left it at that. The orignal poster didn't make me sick at all. The thought that people actually do this does.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

I am not a breeder but I have done rescue work. I remember the night a cat had her kittens and the babies were all mangled. Some were deformed and some were not. I had to wait for transport to take me to the Emergency vet. It was the longest 1/2 hour I have ever experienced. I would not have put them in the freezer. I have often wondered if I could have ended their life, would I do it. I have came to the conclusion that I will let the vet euthanize. Those that are quick to criticize Jeanie for her question remember these things do happen in real life when you are involved with animals.

I for one, did NOT think the poster was asking because she was considering this.. It was a question, and a question to something that I had heard of before also. Thats all.

That may be what a mother in the wild would do. But she doesn't have the resources we have. It's barbaric for breeders to do things like this when we have plenty of good resources at hand, that can be used in a humane manner. You can't expect to get any other response other than this when you ask about killing a pup in a freezer. How would you react if someone came on and talked about treating a premie or a newborn child in this manner (God forbid anyone would do this to any breathing living thing)? :thumbdown

The original poster may (and probably does) have the exact same emotions regarding this practice as the rest of us. I commend her on having the courage to bring it up for discussion. Many people don't think of things that could possibly go wrong when they breed their dogs, and not just yorkies. What would you do in situation when a vet wasn't readily available, and you had a newborn puppy that was obviously suffering, and would probably die on its own, but may suffer tremendously before then. I think the freezer is extreme, but really... would you want it to suffer for hours before you could get it to a vet to humanely euthanize it. I think everyone needs to stop and think about how they would feel in this situation. It is a personal, ethical issue that we each need to decide within our own morals, and not judge others for how they decide to handle the situation, as everyone and every situation is different.

Im not a breeder but I think is best for the vet to humanely euthanize.

Oh my...this is a HORRIBLE thought. :mad: I realize that the situation can occur. This is a frightning reality. I guess I am lucky in this sense and this is bad, buuuut...our vet, who mind you is a very close family friend, made the offer to me to actually possess "the shot," which, yes, I am aware is illegal if you are not liscensed to administer it. Let me stress, this is not something she doles out to every Tom Dick and Harry that walks through her doors. I told her no because if for some reason I had an inspection, how great would it be to have THAT sitting in the fridge! :rolleyes: :eek: She agreed and just told me that if that happened, to call and she would come regardless of time...again, long time friend of the family.
As luck would have it, my accross-the-street neighbor runs a local animal shelter. (Obvoiusly, we talk all of the time, we both love dogs.) So, when it was close to time for Trixie to whelp, there was one in HER fridge, as she is able to administer it.

I agree...I would hate to think anyone WOULD do this...but reality says that's just a wish...The substance of the post was hard to read...but it did make me think .....What if a puppy is truly suffering....what does a breeder do ?

IF I were a breeder I'm pretty sure I'd find a way to the vet ASAP and be humane....but man - just thinking about this is hard... and sad.

There may be circumstances where it would be a couple of days before you could get to a vet or a vet could get to you. Would you let it starve and suffer or take steps to hasten its death? And don't say it couldn't happen because it could.

Maybe the question should have been, How would you euthanize if you could not get it to a vet? Would you consider placing it in a freezer or would you use another means. The scenerio in the book was, if you could not get to a vet. Not simply this is a reccommended method of euthanization. You need to think outside the box here.

JeanieK:

I applaud you for asking. I'm sorry that so many jumped to defensive mode. It's my personal opinion that there are no stupid questions and that one doesn't learn unless they ask. I think the intent was just that, to learn from experienced breeders. Although none of us would ever consider this possibility, I too would be curious if this was actually something that breeders practice. It's appalling to think that it is, but it's better to be educated then not.

Kudos to JeanieK for asking instead of possibly following what she read in a book because she was afraid to ask. :thumbup:

Let me answer this. No reputable breeders do not do this.

No matter what, I am a pet owner 1st. But then again I researched for years, getting to know lines so I would not be looking at a host of problems. It is horrid to me to do something of that nature. I've read also that they say the puppy can't tell. Well that's crap. When they are with mom, they cry when the're cold, so they feel something.

On another note, if someone feels they must have a quetion like that answered, it would have been better served to ask their mentor. If they don't have one, then they need one if they are going to be breeding and have no clue to all the problems that are in back of the lines they are working with. Ask the breeder of your dog questions that will offend those here. Even I had to take a 2nd look at the question and I've been involved for almost 32 years. Personally I would have thought most would realize to take the puppy to a vet to be taken care of properly.

Besides the fact, it really needs to be autopsied. As a breeder knows, no puppy should die that we are not checking it out to see what the problem is or how else would we know how to breed, or not to breed if a dog is producing problems.

hear! hear! Tiggerwit!

I agree it is horrible and I would NEVER do it, and hate to even think of it.. But you can't be so naive to think, that these kind of things don't happen.
Culling is the word. I know farmers from way back that would not think twice about it,any animal, they are not pets or loved ones, like we are, they are food,and income and survival.. Kind of like a Puppy Mill, you don't really believe that a mill would humanely ethanize a pup.. they don't care about them when they are ALIVE, let alone dying or deformed..
Bottom line, as much as we all hate it,and don't want to think about it.. It happens, everyday. :( I know we are talking about dog breeders, but I hate it for ANY animal. But it is a reality. As horrible as that is.

It was just a question. It's an old practice that my grandfather used to do. He used to breed hound dogs. It's very sad and there is no way I would be able to do this. Breeding can be a beautiful thing, but there are alot of ugly things that can and do go wrong. And some are faced with things they thought they would never have to do. It's hard to say what I would have done. We do have emergance vets that charge 150 just to be seen plus cost of what ever treatment they do. Can get costly for a pup you know is not going to make it. If there was a pup who was not in pain and I knew it was not going to make it, I would wrap it up keep it warm and calm as possible and let it go as nature attended. But what do you do with a pup that is so badly deformed and/or pain and/or seizing? What then? I can see how you would want to end it's life to keep it from suffering. Again I would not be the one to make such a decision. I with you the best of luck! I would ask what happened to the pup but I understand if you don't want to answer for fear of what other members may say, but please understand we all are here because we love our little ones and are pet lovers. They are only stating their opinion and believes. But it's for the love of the animals!

You have a good point here. :thumbup:

I can't really answer you though. I have NO CLUE what I would do under an extreme cicumstance that I had a newborn suffering and vet care was NOT available for what ever reason. All I DO know is that the freezor thing would not be an option. I feel it would add to the suffering even if for a short period of time. So I say THANK YOU for bringing this to my attention, and I will discuss with my trusted vet what her views are and what my humane options would be if vet care was not an option. ( I don't for-see that ever happening, but natural disasters do occur and we could be in a blizzard, state of emergency or anything)

:thumbup: :thumbup:

JeakieK, I apologize to you because the post upset me and I took it out on you personally, when I did not mean to. So for my post towards you I apologize for. I still think this is a disgusting practice. If I was in that situation, I would let the mom and pup have their time together. I would take it to an emergency vet, even miles away in the middle of the night, because that's what a good, caring breeder would do. These are the reasons I can't be a breeder because there is a lot of bad things that need quick decisions. I would try my hardest to keep the little one alive. I just could not bear to hear it crying from inside the freezer. I could never ever live with myself and would probably hear it's voice crying for the rest of my life.

I know, or rather hope, this is a hypological question, so I don't think I am going to run the risk of hurting feelings here, but...
If it's days before you could get to the vet for a pup, that would also mean it's days before you could get to the vet for the whelping female. In that case, you have no business breeding in the first place!!! :thumbdown What would you do if the mother had an emergency during the delivery? Let her die? :thumbdown

In my breeding program I try to save my puppies at all cost. Now, if nature decides that they are to go to the rainbow bridge that is who decides.

I'd have to say the samething. I dont' care when the pups are born. I have my vet who will meet me at the clinic 365/24/7..this service does come with a price.

I'm talking about unusual circumstances such as a blizzard, something out of a breeders control. What other reason would there be for not being able to get to a vet.

I don't see that there is any reson to attack anyone here it is a hypothetical siotuation, that COULD happen. What would you as a non breeder suggest that a breeder do?

It was just a question....


First, I don't think a deformed puppy would be a reason to have it euthanized. We were going to get a deformed cockapoo, but she got sold when we were on our way. :(

Now, if I were a breeder, I could most definitly not do this. I wouldnt be able to stand myself if I did. I would drive miles away to take the puppy to an emergency vet. I stand outside on a cold night and I'm freezing, I could just imagine how a little tiny new born puppy would feel locked in a freezer. *shudders* :(

I believe we would all do that, if we could. but what if we couldn't?

I understand what you are saying 100%!

However what if you had a wonderful breeder with a great vet who is always on call, and some kind of CRAZY un-forseen thing happened in the community (lets say a terrorist threat, a tornado, a blizzard, a hurricane, gosh it could go on and on these days) if something like that happened and you COULD NOT get to a vet or get one to you and pups were coming...something was terribly wrong with one and it was suffering beyond belief, what would you do? I haven't found an answer to this question where I'm concerned yet.

As a breeder I would find away to get to a vet. Walk, ride, whatever. Or have the vet come to me. I wouldn't settle...

By they way JanineK none of my posts are directed towards you. So please dont' take them as such :animal-pa

Hmmm...maybe this is something you need to ask a non-breeder. If I didn't think I would be able to deal with such situations at ALL times, I wouldn't be breeding.
I guess I am lucky, I live in the South, last snow was 1993.

Girl I'm jealous!! :D
I live in the south too and we got a bad one last winter. None to put on record as of this year so far!