Stickey post?

[gymbo68]

Back to the question-

My vote would be no...too many opinions involved...and too much debate-

[YorkieRini]

Originally Posted by gymbo68

Back to the question-

My vote would be no...too many opinions involved...and too much debate-

Forget I asked..lolololol

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Irene~

I too am with you about wanting ALL members to be educated about the pros and cons of early s/n. Maybe we can work together to come up with language for a sticky that accurately reflects the good and the bad of this practice and present it to admin as a "sticky".

I think there is just such a strong concern in our society about pet over population that this concern gets a lot of weight and the individual needs of the particular dog in question are not as carefully assessed which is all that concerns me. I am not anti-neutering...I am anti ROUTINE neutering where it is just considered the thing to do because the Shelter people and Bob Barker say it is the "responsible" thing to do and EVERY pet who isn't to be bred is automatically neutered.

We are the only country who does this. In many countries around the world, it is the opposite, and it is uncommon to neuter a pet unless there is a justifiable reason that is in the best interests of THAT dog, not the pet over population problem. I feel that this is a better policy for the individual dogs.

[red98vett]

I think a sticky would be a good idea only IF it didn't have a zillion other opinions on it that distract from the original idea....that Early Spay Neuter thread went all over the place after the first few pages and IF a new person were to come and read all that ...they'd be more confused than ever.

Sometimes LESS is more and in the case of information - certain things can be said simply and to the point.....

besides - a sticky shouldn't be a debate thread.

[diva pup]

Quote Kim"We are the only country who does this. In many countries around the world, it is the opposite, and it is uncommon to neuter a pet unless there is a justifiable reason that is in the best interests of THAT dog, not the pet over population problem. I feel that this is a better policy for the individual dogs."

Kim, I am curious as to which countries you are referring to and where you obtained this information.

[BamaFan121s]

I agree that you should never do s/n "just because," but I don't really see many people coming here stating that's why the do/don't choose it. Most of the s/n stories here seem to have a very valid reason behind the decision. I would hope it is safe to say that most people are responsible enough to be able to either 1) keep their dogs from being bred if that is not their choice/what is best or 2) if they don't think they can prevent an unwanted litter, have the s/n done....At least they are able to admit they can't handle preventing it (which would, in their case, be in the best interest of the dog/breed/owner) and step up to the plate to take action rather than waiting for an "accident" to happen. What would be their alternative? Not having a dog at all? That doesn't seem very fair.

[YorkieRini]

In the beginning of this thread I posted a link that had actual breeder experiences. Breeders that have incorporated early s/n for years and no problems. As a breedert that will do everything I can to prevent my babies being bred without my consent, I found that link extremely helpful. Then we actually have 2 breeders that are on YT that state the samething no problems, thus far. Doesn't mean that somthing may happen. But testimony is good enough for me. It's an important decision a breeder must face. The only full proof way is to s/n the pup before it leave. Right? A contract means nothing IMO. I've had people tell me they will do what they want, it's 'their' dog. I don't take any chances. There is always risks if you don't get them s/n early, they can get hit by a car..right?

[JCarlson2004]

Originally Posted by goldenray

Hi Kim. I can't even imagine in this day and age any vet saying there are more health benefits from not spaying/neutering since all research from the vet universities say otherwise. After many years of experience for myself and others I know, I can say the same. I see no reason to just render the dog unable to produce, when I can do a full spay or neuter and get those hormones out of there at the same time and prevent later problems from happening. The health benefits are worth my doing the full spay/neuter and as I said, it also makes potty training easier, which I am all for.

Very good post.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by diva pup

Quote Kim"We are the only country who does this. In many countries around the world, it is the opposite, and it is uncommon to neuter a pet unless there is a justifiable reason that is in the best interests of THAT dog, not the pet over population problem. I feel that this is a better policy for the individual dogs."

Kim, I am curious as to which countries you are referring to and where you obtained this information.

It was in an article I read earlier in the week that I just searched for again and did not find but I will keep looking. I did find this article from a British veterinarian organization that states the following:

Dogs need not be castrated routinely unless particular problems are encounted such as vagrancy, over-sexed behaviour, or pining when bitches nearby are on heat. They may be castrated at any age and it is always best to discuss your reasons with the vet or Penny Jackson, our behavioural counsellor.http://www.millhousevets.co.uk/faq/dogne.htm

This proves that Britain is one of the countries.

This same article says the optimum time to spay is 6 weeks after the first heat:

The ideal time time to spay is 6 weeks after the first season ends. A recent large survey of spayed bitches, showed that spaying after the first season caused a lower incidence of incontinence, particularly in certain breeds (eg Old English Sheepdog, Golden Retrievers and Gordon Setters). The incidence of mammary tumours is reduced by spaying before the second season

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Another article says that another drawback to early s/n is the lack of gender specific characterisitics.

See this link for the entire article:http://www.labbies.com/neuter.htm

Here is an excerpt:
LACK OF GENDER CHARACTERISTICS ATTRIBUTED TO EARLY NEUTERING. Reproductive hormones such as estrogen in the female and testosterone in the male are also responsible for producing feminine and masculine traits, respectively. Early neutering which removes the source of production of these hormones prior to complete physical development and maturity of a dog results in individuals which may appear neither masculine nor feminine. Postponing neutering for 2-3 years in a male or allowing a female to go through one estrus cycle allows for development of gender characteristics.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

It was in an article I read earlier in the week that I just searched for again and did not find but I will keep looking. I did find this article from a British veterinarian organization that states the following:

Dogs need not be castrated routinely unless particular problems are encounted such as vagrancy, over-sexed behaviour, or pining when bitches nearby are on heat. They may be castrated at any age and it is always best to discuss your reasons with the vet or Penny Jackson, our behavioural counsellor.http://www.millhousevets.co.uk/faq/dogne.htm

This proves that Britain is one of the countries.

This same article says the optimum time to spay is 6 weeks after the first heat:

The ideal time time to spay is 6 weeks after the first season ends. A recent large survey of spayed bitches, showed that spaying after the first season caused a lower incidence of incontinence, particularly in certain breeds (eg Old English Sheepdog, Golden Retrievers and Gordon Setters). The incidence of mammary tumours is reduced by spaying before the second season

This same article says this:
For many years it was accepted that bitches should be spayed after their first season. It is now thought, however, that spaying them before this first season, at 4-5 months is simpler and causes no more side effects. In fact, the incidence of mammary (breast) cancer can be reduced

Seems like this is contradictory in itself, doesn't it? IMO, this article states that certain things like "pining when females are in heat," are good reasons to neuter. What male dog ISN'T going to do that?!?! It looks like they say, don't do it w/out a good reason, but to them, EVERY little thing is a good reason.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Another article says that another drawback to early s/n is the lack of gender specific characterisitics.

See this link for the entire article:http://www.labbies.com/neuter.htm

Here is an excerpt:
LACK OF GENDER CHARACTERISTICS ATTRIBUTED TO EARLY NEUTERING. Reproductive hormones such as estrogen in the female and testosterone in the male are also responsible for producing feminine and masculine traits, respectively. Early neutering which removes the source of production of these hormones prior to complete physical development and maturity of a dog results in individuals which may appear neither masculine nor feminine. Postponing neutering for 2-3 years in a male or allowing a female to go through one estrus cycle allows for development of gender characteristics.

OK, so they list the cons as:
1. Possible urinary incontnence-"Urinary incontinence can be caused by other factors such as trauma, infection, or hereditary abnormalities"
2. Lack of gender characteristics, although they don't give any examples of which traits
3. Can't participate in AKC events
4. Can't breed

They list pros as:
1. Less chance of unwanted behavior
2. Decrease of cancer risks-to as little as 5% in females, testicular cancer to 0% (obviously)

Gee...seems like the pros are more beneficial than the cons, in my opinion.

[gymbo68]

Well Irene...it appears as if your question has turned into another debate thread- BIG surprise there...but some members just have to seize every opportunity they can to make a debate--JMO
ps- I am still a no vote for that very reason- and as for someone writing a sticky and posting it again probably not a good idea-

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by gymbo68

Well Irene...it appears as if your question has turned into another debate thread- BIG surprise there...but some members just have to seize every opportunity they can to make a debate--JMO
ps- I am still a no vote for that very reason- and as for someone writing a sticky and posting it again probably not a good idea-

How is this a "debate" any more than any other informative thread where members are listing the pros and cons of an issue and citing their own experiences. There is no right or wrong answer to this....only getting the info out there so that every pet owner, and sometimes breeder, can make the decision for each animal with all of the information in front of them. No one is trying to sway decisions one way or another but simply supply the info and the sites for the members to read up themselves and become better educated on the topic.

Do you just want everyone to say that there are only good reasons to early s/n when that is not the truth? I am not following this. Those in favor of routine ESN can say why they have reached that decision and those who are opposed can express why they feel it is may not be the thing to do.

Do you not feel the negatives should be discussed at all?

This thread and the one on Early Spay/Neuter have been entirely civil and uneventful with maybe one or two exceptions of posts by those who feel it is wrong to say there that is ever a reason to question neutering a pet.

I feel that we would be doing this board and it's members a disservice to not present as much info as we can find on a topic, pro and con, if we are considering making it a "sticky" especially and then posting it with citations so that each member can make educated decisions for their pets.

For example, Bamafan has decided after reading all of the pros and cons that ESN is what she feels is best. Others will feel differently. That is the beauty of it. Everyone can decide for themselves but they have not been "pressured" by the neuter nazis or their vet or the people against pet over-population.

I know that this will never be a "sticky" but will come up in the searches and we have given more info here than anyone alone knew before these threads so we have taught everyone something and made them think.

Where is the crime in that?

[gymbo68]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

How is this a "debate" any more than any other informative thread where members are listing the pros and cons of an issue and citing their own experiences. There is no right or wrong answer to this....only getting the info out there so that every pet owner, and sometimes breeder, can make the decision for each animal with all of the information in front of them. No one is trying to sway decisions one way or another but simply supply the info and the sites for the members to read up themselves and become better educated on the topic.

Do you just want everyone to say that there are only good reasons to early s/n when that is not the truth? I am not following this. Those in favor of routine ESN can say why they have reached that decision and those who are opposed can express why they feel it is may not be the thing to do.

Do you not feel the negatives should be discussed at all?

This thread and the one on Early Spay/Neuter have been entirely civil and uneventful with maybe one or two exceptions of posts by those who feel it is wrong to say there that is ever a reason to question neutering a pet.

I feel that we would be doing this board and it's members a disservice to not present as much info as we can find on a topic, pro and con, if we are considering making it a "sticky" especially and then posting it with citations so that each member can make educated decisions for their pets.

For example, Bamafan has decided after reading all of the pros and cons that ESN is what she feels is best. Others will feel differently. That is the beauty of it. Everyone can decide for themselves but they have not been "pressured" by the neuter nazis or their vet or the people against pet over-population.

I know that this will never be a "sticky" but will come up in the searches and we have given more info here than anyone alone knew before these threads so we have taught everyone something and made them think.

Where is the crime in that?

There is no crime in any of this- but the thread was originally should I ask for a sticky- you chose to take it off its original topic and continue your early s/n thread in another place- THAT- is my point....nothing more nothing less- so please do not try to make it more than what it is-