Early Spay/Neuter

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

I am pretty sure there were studies done which prove a higher incidence of incontinence in spayed females than intact ones. I have read this in the past and will have to see if I can find it again and post the citation.

As far as "hormones causing cancer"...I have never heard this before and would love to read any studies you are aware of in this area. Yes, it's true that "synthetic hormones for humans" have been proven to increase the risk of certain cancers, but I did not think that natural hormones were any risk. I am approaching menopause myslef and have been studying the value of these reproductive hormones in women and have opted to go on bioidental hormones myself so as not to lose the many health benefits they provide as one ages. They basically are what keeps our bodies running well and keeps us young. Once these shut down and we no longer produce them we age very quickly.

The incidence of both testicular and breast cancer (see earlier post) in canines is so rare that if anyone is seriously weighing the risk of a traditional s/n sugery against the odds of either of these cancers, the balance would always swing against the s/n, but yet vets continue to use these two cancers as examples of why it is "healthier" to s/n your pet. I feel this is a serious misrepresentation of the true facts and not in the best interests of the individual dog.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

I found an article that is pro early s/n and here is the link.
http://www.king.igs.net/~brica/esp.htm

They do stress how important it is to have a vet who is trained and comfortable in working on such young and tiny animals and this is a quote from the article:

Some shelters and veterinarians in private practices are currently performing ESP, but it's also important for breeders to understand why individual veterinarians may choose not to perform early neuters. An eight-week old puppy is not just a smaller version of an eight-month old puppy. There are important differences between the two in factors such as respiratory and cardiovascular physiology, drug metabolism and thermoregulation. Few practitioners have accumulated a significant amount of experience in anesthetizing very young puppies on a regular basis, since there are not very many situations which call for anesthesia that young.

Just as some argue that it is basic common sense that the risk would be greater to breed a tiny female than an average size one, I would think some would make the same argument that it is common sense that it would be riskier to neuter a young, tiny puppy under 6 months of age than one who is older, bigger and stronger.

Is this not true? If not, why is it not?

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

This article also supports early s/n but explains many of the concerns addressed in this thread and the actually studies conducted in the 1990s regarding this issue.
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/olson/ivis.pdf

The article states the following in summary:

Pros:
1. Relatively safe2. Few long term side effects
3. Combats pet over population
4. Shorter recovery time
5. Mortality and morbidity rates are lower
6. Great tool for animal shelters
6. Great tool for breeders who want to prevent the use of pet dogs for breeding
7. Does not stunt growth

Cons:
1.Possible adverse effects on the immune systems of these puppies
2.Studies on obesity in neutered dogs is inconclusive althoug it is proven that nuetered cats are more prone to obesity and one study showed that spayed female dogs were twice as likely to become obese as intact ones.
3.While estrogen-responsive urinary incontinence in female dogs has been proven to be much higher in neutered dogs, there seems to be little significance to this fact regarding the age at which the dog is neutered.
4. Inflammation of the Penis, Prepuse and Vulva: In male dogs who are neutered at a very young sge, the penis remains infantile in appearance and never extrudes which can be significant if a catherization were ever necessary. In the female perivulvar dermatitus is higher in early s/n dogs according to the studies cited.
5.Surgical/Anesthetic Concerns:
Hypglycemia
Hypothermia
Small blood volume
Delicate nature of pediatric tissues

As far as the procedure itself and how it differs from an adult ovariohysterectomy (full neutering of the female) the incision in the puppy is made in a slightly different location. snook hooks cannot be used to due the delicate nature of the tissues, serous fluid is more likely, and the uterus is extremely fribale so great care must be taken to avoid excess traction.

Those who are interested can read the entire article as I posted the link above.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Just as some argue that it is basic common sense that the risk would be greater to breed a tiny female than an average size one, I would think some would make the same argument that it is common sense that it would be riskier to neuter a young, tiny puppy under 6 months of age than one who is older, bigger and stronger.

Is this not true? If not, why is it not?

I normally don't do this, but in an effort to prove a point, I'm going to anyway. To answer your question above: Studies show the mortality and complication rate is lower when the procedure is performed on young vs old dogs. Also, the anesthetic recovery time is much quicker. This per Dr. Tracy Land. You can see all of her comments at the following link. I believe her email address is there also if you'd like to contact her and discuss it further since SHE is the expert.
http://www.petorphans.com/earlyneut.html

Also, here are some more interesting links that explain the benefits of s/n and of early s/n in general:

This link discusses the studies that show there is no difference in rates of growth , immune function, and such when s/n is done in a juvenile vs an adult. It actually states that animals experience a longer, more healthy growth and development period when receiving early s/n...which would be, depending on your opinion, a benefit if you have a particularly small dog.
http://www.artanimals.org/earlyspayneuter.html

This link tells of studies that show females spayed before their first heat actually are actually healthier overall.
http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/my...neutering.html

This link tells of some of the health benefits of the procedure:
http://warrentonkc.tripod.com/spayneut.htm

And this link has a list of multiple sites explaining the benefits of the procedure as well:
http://www.wonderpuppy.net/neuter.htm

OK, so back to my point. It is undenyable that yes, there are pros to s/n, and yes, there are cons to s/n. I am not trying to prove that I am right and anyone else is wrong about in this scenario. What I am trying to state is that ANYBODY can find ANYTHING on the internet if they try to help argue a point. This argument could honestly go on FOREVER.
One person may not view the benefits as "enough" to face the risk of having it done. The next person may not view the "risk" of having it done as greater than the benefits.
I would like to think that everyone, on and off this forum, has the basic intelligence to research this procedure before making a decision and deciding on what is best FOR THEM. What's best for one may not be for the next. We are all different. If we are sharing our experiences with the procedure, that is one thing, but it does NO GOOD when people come here and are lectured--from EITHER viewpoint. Can we PLEASE move past this!?!? Everytime this subject is brought up, it always is turned into a big debate. Could we please not do that, just once?

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

One person may not view the benefits as "enough" to face the risk of having it done. The next person may not view the "risk" of having it done as greater than the benefits.
I would like to think that everyone, on and off this forum, has the basic intelligence to research this procedure before making a decision and deciding on what is best FOR THEM. What's best for one may not be for the next. We are all different.

I totally agree...

.....and as with any other subject here on YT we pose our questions and then do the research so that any other members wishing to learn about the topic can take advantage of these discussions which is what they are. They are not debates.

Some members do not research but just take the word of their vet or what they read here on YT. If we all "knew it all" we wouldn't have to come here to ask questions and get different opinions. How many people didn't know about the danger of the lepto vaccine or combo vaccines and just let their vet give them to their puppies w/o a second thought. You know what I am trying to say, I am sure.

You stated for example, in an earlier post, that you did not think it was proven that neutered females are at greater risk for incontinence. The fact is that they are. This is not an opinion...it is proven fact from studies and research by veterinary scientists. Aren't you glad that you learned that and that other members did to from this thread? That risk needs to be factored in just as the small risk of brest cancer and testicular cancer are. Unfortunately, for many reasons, vets do not tell the entire story.

Thank you for your research and you are correct that the tendency of the traditional veterinarian is to favor early s/n for the primary reason that they favor routine s/n overall, it prevents pet over population and it is good for their pocketbooks. We here on YT treat our yorkies like our family members and most are more concerned about the health and well being of their baby than about the fact that the world has too many unwanted dogs. Our babies are our concern, first and foremost, and if there are risks to early s/n or s/n in general, we should know about them to determine for our own situation what is best or our babies, not what is best for the pet over- population problem. After we have cared for the needs of our babies we can then do our part to get the word out about animals who are unnecessarily euthanized everyday.

JMHO as always.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

.....and as with any other subject here on YT we pose our questions and then do the research so that any other members wishing to learn about the topic can take advantage of these discussions which is what they are. They are not debates.

I highly disagree with this. Fact is, they do turn into a debate, much as this one has, and turn nasty. Otherwise, why would they all be locked?

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Some members do not research but just take the word of their vet or what they read here on YT. If we all "knew it all" we wouldn't have to come here to ask questions and get different opinions. How many people didn't know about the danger of the lepto vaccine or combo vaccines and just let their vet give them to their puppies w/o a second thought. You know what I am trying to say, I am sure.

You are correct. Some do not research first. But their is a difference in urging and providing them w/ resources to educate themselves and trying to sway them towards one side. If not have s/n is what is best for you, that is fine. But it may not be what is best for them. I would think it better to encourage them to read up on it vs trying to convince them one way or the other, regardless to which side it is.

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

You stated for example, in an earlier post, that you did not think it was proven that neutered females are at greater risk for incontinence. The fact is that they are. This is not an opinion...it is proven fact from studies and research by veterinary scientists. Aren't you glad that you learned that and that other members did to from this thread? .

First off, I did not say that it was not a proven fact that is was a possible result. I said that I do not see how you could prove that a dog who had early s/n developed the problem as a result or due to other, natural circumstances. You have no before/after comparison for the dog. How do you know it wouldn't have happened anyway?

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

you are correct that the tendency of the traditional veterinarian is to favor early s/n for the primary reason that they favor routine s/n overall, it prevents pet over population and it is good for their pocketbooks. .

I beg your pardon, but when did I EVER say that this was the reason they favored it? I don't think I ever said that! I don't feel this way at all! I honestly don't know where you get this from at all! Plus, I think this makes a very unfair statement towards the, how did you put it...the "traditional" veterinarian...as a whole. Seems like it categorizes them all as just being money hungry.

[BlumoonYorkies]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I highly disagree with this. Fact is, they do turn into a debate, much as this one has, and turn nasty. Otherwise, why would they all be locked?



You are correct. Some do not research first. But their is a difference in urging and providing them w/ resources to educate themselves and trying to sway them towards one side. If not have s/n is what is best for you, that is fine. But it may not be what is best for them. I would think it better to encourage them to read up on it vs trying to convince them one way or the other, regardless to which side it is.




First off, I did not say that it was not a proven fact that is was a possible result. I said that I do not see how you could prove that a dog who had early s/n developed the problem as a result or due to other, natural circumstances. You have no before/after comparison for the dog. How do you know it wouldn't have happened anyway?



I beg your pardon, but when did I EVER say that this was the reason they favored it? I don't think I ever said that! I don't feel this way at all! I honestly don't know where you get this from at all! Plus, I think this makes a very unfair statement towards the, how did you put it...the "traditional" veterinarian...as a whole. Seems like it categorizes them all as just being money hungry.

I as a reputable ethical Show exhibitor and breeder of only Yorkshire Terriers and have had one since the age of 10. Does state after spaying/nuetering many many young puppies over the past 10 years, that this is so much better than later spay/nueter as I also do after I retire one of my champion girls. I see the difference! I watch my surgeries and have the experience to back up my statemnets. Early spay/nueter has NOT once caused any issue's with a dog of mine later in life! HOWEVER on the down side, ones that have not been early s/n can and have come down with Pyo, as I had one at 2 years of age, cancer as pet people who have called and told me they lost there dog to it at 4,5 ad 6. When I ask at what age were they spayed, alot state they were not or not til 4-5 year of age. Breast tumors are a concern at an early age as well. Potty training is also MUCH easier especially on males!
Nothing like a pet person having a male lift there leg all over there house and end up homeless or in a shelter!

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by BlumoonYorkies

I as a reputable ethical Show exhibitor and breeder of only Yorkshire Terriers and have had one since the age of 10. Does state after spaying/nuetering many many young puppies over the past 10 years, that this is so much better than later spay/nueter as I also do after I retire one of my champion girls. I see the difference! I watch my surgeries and have the experience to back up my statemnets. Early spay/nueter has NOT once caused any issue's with a dog of mine later in life! HOWEVER on the down side, ones that have not been early s/n can and have come down with Pyo, as I had one at 2 years of age, cancer as pet people who have called and told me they lost there dog to it at 4,5 ad 6. When I ask at what age were they spayed, alot state they were not or not til 4-5 year of age. Breast tumors are a concern at an early age as well. Potty training is also MUCH easier especially on males!
Nothing like a pet person having a male lift there leg all over there house and end up homeless or in a shelter!

Thank you....your experience and post speak volumes...

[Carters Mom]

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Another article says that another drawback to early s/n is the lack of gender specific characterisitics.

See this link for the entire article:http://www.labbies.com/neuter.htm

Here is an excerpt:
LACK OF GENDER CHARACTERISTICS ATTRIBUTED TO EARLY NEUTERING. Reproductive hormones such as estrogen in the female and testosterone in the male are also responsible for producing feminine and masculine traits, respectively. Early neutering which removes the source of production of these hormones prior to complete physical development and maturity of a dog results in individuals which may appear neither masculine nor feminine. Postponing neutering for 2-3 years in a male or allowing a female to go through one estrus cycle allows for development of gender characteristics.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

I have two other questions for those breeders who do ESN.

1) Since it is hard to tell until a later age whether a puppy is show or breed potential how do you decide what puppies to neuter early and at wht age do you make this decision?

2) What if a pet owner doesn't want to breed but wants to show in AKC conformation shows? If you neuter their pet, they are precluded from doing so, right?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I have two other questions for those breeders who do ESN.

1) Since it is hard to tell until a later age whether a puppy is show or breed potential how do you decide what puppies to neuter early and at wht age do you make this decision?

Should the pup have a congenial defect that should not be bred down, I would do s/n regardless of what quality it may end up being. (Provided I didn't keep it myself.) Also, if the pup will CLEARLY be to small to EVER be bred, I would do early s/n then too.


Of course, since my dogs are CKC, I really don't have to worry about it from the show aspect.

Wasn't your Hefner already s/n when you got him? What was his breeder's reasoning for doing so?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Another article says that another drawback to early s/n is the lack of gender specific characterisitics.

See this link for the entire article:http://www.labbies.com/neuter.htm

Here is an excerpt:
LACK OF GENDER CHARACTERISTICS ATTRIBUTED TO EARLY NEUTERING. Reproductive hormones such as estrogen in the female and testosterone in the male are also responsible for producing feminine and masculine traits, respectively. Early neutering which removes the source of production of these hormones prior to complete physical development and maturity of a dog results in individuals which may appear neither masculine nor feminine. Postponing neutering for 2-3 years in a male or allowing a female to go through one estrus cycle allows for development of gender characteristics.

Funny, they mention these "gender characteristics," yet they don't tell what they are or give you so much as one example.

As I already said on the other thread. I did find this site very informative. But, IMO, the pros they listed far outweighed the cons. Plus, something else to consider, hasn't it been said here before that you should be sure to consult a vet that had special training with small dogs? This is a site about Labradors. I am sure the concepts are the same, but what information do we have that these numbers are not geared towards specifically the Lab breed--I mean, afterall, the site itself is.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Wasn't your Hefner already s/n when you got him? What was his breeder's reasoning for doing so?

The typical...she did not want her lines diluted...she sold him through a "friend" of hers who was a breeder so I never met her. I went to thw breeder to purchase a puppy for my 18 year old daughter and I saw Hefner and had to have him too. I paid a lot of money for him and was surprised to discover after having him home for several days that he was already neutered. I never thought that was something I needed to inquire about. I have never bred any of my dogs but I always got to make the decisions about neutering.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

The typical...she did not want her lines diluted...she sold him through a "friend" of hers who was a breeder so I never met her. I went to thw breeder to purchase a puppy for my 18 year old daughter and I saw Hefner and had to have him too. I paid a lot of money for him and was surprised to discover after having him home for several days that he was already neutered. I never thought that was something I needed to inquire about. I have never bred any of my dogs but I always got to make the decisions about neutering.

You are smart, I assume that you researched his history first. You have very stong feelings towards "traditional" vet practiced medicines (vaccinations). I would think you would have asked for medical records for Hefner? I remember once, and correct me if I'm wrong, but your homeopathic vet wanted complete histories? Wouldn't his neutering have been included in his medical records? Plus, if I recall correctly, didn't you get him at a relatively young age? What problems has HE had as a result?