recent observation-

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Many show breeders IMO are focused on peddling their pretties around the ring like a childhood pageant of sorts and you find out that the health of some of them isn't so great. Bettering the breed should first and foremost be about health.

I completely agree! Health first and foremost.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I have been thinking about this post continuously and am really bothered by it. I have seriously tried to work on my posting in the last year or so and the only time I ever really remember even talking about your breeder was when the debate of what time a pup should leave it's mom and I feel pretty good that was seriously way over a year ago. What I was saying was not that your breeder was horrible. I just am saying true reputable breeders that are breeding to better the breed at very hard to find and your are making it sound like a piece of cake.

Your change in posting, and your choice to reflect rather than escalate an issue is noted, appreciated, and clearly obvious by your response above. . It opens dialogue, which is especially great on a "talk" forum.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01

I have a bulldog and imo they have one of THE WORST standards ever! It basically sets them up for health issues. Health should always be the #1 concern when it comes to breeding, then temperment, then coat correctness, bite (which could go with health), etc imo.

My vet was just talking about that the other day. We started out discussing all of the issues yorkies have these days...and it led to discussions of other breeds. She mentioned bulldogs as having horrible issues.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01

I have a bulldog and imo they have one of THE WORST standards ever! It basically sets them up for health issues. Health should always be the #1 concern when it comes to breeding, then temperment, then coat correctness, bite (which could go with health), etc imo.

There was a story being shared on fb with some of the breeds where the standards have really worsened there health. It's really sad.

[ColesMommy01]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

My vet was just talking about that the other day. We started out discussing all of the issues yorkies have these days...and it led to discussions of other breeds. She mentioned bulldogs as having horrible issues.

I can say that the YT breed standard does not adversely affect their health. With bulldogs? Undershot jaws, unable to welp naturally in most cases, extremely low tolerance for certain weather which would be considered preferable otherwise, constant allergies, etc. I would never recommend the breed for neat freaks or families that are active outdoors. The bulldog is truly a man-made breed in all aspects, mother nature can wipe her hands clean of what the breed is today. I'm going to stop now before I start ranting.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01

I can say that the YT breed standard does not adversely affect their health. With bulldogs? Undershot jaws, unable to welp naturally in most cases, extremely low tolerance for certain weather which would be considered preferable otherwise, constant allergies, etc. I would never recommend the breed for neat freaks or families that are active outdoors. The bulldog is truly a man-made breed in all aspects, mother nature can wipe her hands clean of what the breed is today. I'm going to stop now before I start ranting.

True! Man has definitely done a great diservice to some breeds. I remember watching a show, I think it was on BBC, about dogs at Crufts. Dogs deliberately bred in such a way that it severely hampered their quality of life; dogs with snouts that affected their breathing, heads so big natural birth was a rarity, and the one that stuck with me was the King Charles Caveleir spaniel with a skull too small for its brain. And then there was a dog that had been used as a stud repeatedly, for years, that had a genetic condition.

Truly sad what humans have done to some animals to achieve a certain look.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

True! Man has definitely done a great diservice to some breeds. I remember watching a show, I think it was on BBC, about dogs at Crufts. Dogs deliberately bred in such a way that it severely hampered their quality of life; dogs with snouts that affected their breathing, heads so big natural birth was a rarity, and the one that stuck with me was the King Charles Caveleir spaniel with a skull too small for its brain. And then there was a dog that had been used as a stud repeatedly, for years, that had a genetic condition.

Truly sad what humans have done to some animals to achieve a certain look.

I agree, but you know for the most part those standards have not changed in any significant way, but the interpretation of that standard that the breeders were responsible for safeguarding, took it to shall I say extremes. In my mind it is a direct arrow to the Breed Clubs, the breeders and the Judges who started to award ribbons to extreme presentation of the breed.


They the BBC never showed the breeds that improved over the past 50 or 70 or 100 years. Improved in conformation or structure or temperament.


Now in my judging seminars for the BRT - I am very clear about its structure - and there are lots of judging details to that structure which is contained with in our standard. But still some breeders are breeding not to a square dog with a balanced powerfull hindquarters and chest, but playing to a more rectangular dog. Why ? One reason is you get a much more showey trot! You get visually better reach and drive - ergo more showey. They were never meant to be showey dogs - but quite frankly from a seated position to leap up to the throat of a 6ft tall person. Powerfull hindquarters and chest is needed for this. They are one of the few breeds that were bred to guard and protect Man/Woman. They are to have dense bones - and we had been seeing some more lighter boned dogs out there. Thankfully that has changed - due to judges education, breeders education and breeders not getting a blue ribbon award.


Like any complex organization there are many avenues of inquiry and solutions are somewhat complicated. But it starts for sure with a strong National Breed Club - that upholds the standard and is very very leery of changing it in anyway. The exception would be for health issues. And even then - that is a multi-faceted decision, that takes time to fully understand the impact. What condition do we require CHIC numbers for, what condition if any do we strongly aver as part of a breeding pair?

[scrapindee]

I breed to improve the breed and to find my next show dog. I have a good application and yes I do ask for your vet and groomers as references. once I think I may consider you for a puppy I want personal references. I have worked with buyers where my puppy is the first puppy they have ever had.

I am in contact with 95% of my buyers. About 75% come back for a 2nd or 3rd puppy. Most of the time my waiting list covers all the puppies available in my occasional litters so I do not advertise.

So if you show up with cash in hand expecting a puppy, you are dreaming.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by scrapindee

I breed to improve the breed and to find my next show dog. I have a good application and yes I do ask for your vet and groomers as references. once I think I may consider you for a puppy I want personal references. I have worked with buyers where my puppy is the first puppy they have ever had.

I am in contact with 95% of my buyers. About 75% come back for a 2nd or 3rd puppy. Most of the time my waiting list covers all the puppies available in my occasional litters so I do not advertise.

So if you show up with cash in hand expecting a puppy, you are dreaming.

ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto!!! In my case, easily 50% are referrals from members of the extended Rosehill Family, 30% are repeat buyers, and 20% are people that have seen my web site!

[107barney]

Originally Posted by scrapindee

I breed to improve the breed and to find my next show dog. I have a good application and yes I do ask for your vet and groomers as references. once I think I may consider you for a puppy I want personal references. I have worked with buyers where my puppy is the first puppy they have ever had.

I am in contact with 95% of my buyers. About 75% come back for a 2nd or 3rd puppy. Most of the time my waiting list covers all the puppies available in my occasional litters so I do not advertise.

So if you show up with cash in hand expecting a puppy, you are dreaming.

Groomer? Lol. I don't even have one of those. I groom myself. My avatar shows Teddy's new cut. I do better than these groomers and handle my dogs properly. I would think a vet reference is all you need.

[gemy]

For my breed along with vet reference - I would like to see a trainer reference. At the least that this person either has the knowledge personally to train this dog and or has a trainer in place. In fact the requirement for obedience training is in their contract....

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by gemy

For my breed along with vet reference - I would like to see a trainer reference. At the least that this person either has the knowledge personally to train this dog and or has a trainer in place. In fact the requirement for obedience training is in their contract....

It is always good to look for breed specific references. One of my main things I look at is IF a person provides dentals for their yorkies (if they have others) IF they have been advised to do so by their vet. That is a breed specific issue. I see nothing wrong with asking for a groomer reference because we do work with a breed where that is important. I don't do that and certainly would not worry if a person groomed their pups themselves.

Each person who sells or adopts a dog to a home has his/her right to ask for whatever references they wish; and each applicant has the right to refuse. They don't, however, have a right to obtain the animal they wish to purchase or adopt.

[Doodlebug]

I do believe that the breeder has a responsibility to place their puppies in good homes so I wouldn't mind filling out questions. I do think the question about having future children is a bit nosy. Maybe some questions can be figuered out in regular conversation when asking if they have small children.

The couple next door to us has two large dogs. They were indoor dogs described to us as "their babies". They took them for walks regularly, played ball in the back yard and baby talked to them. Then they had a REAL baby. Now those dogs are left out in the yard all day with no attention. No walks, no ball. When REAL baby is in the yard the dogs get yelled at to "SHUT UP" and "get out of the way". We can even hear them inside the house yelling at the dogs. On several occasions I have seen one of the dogs, the older female, lying in the yard in an odd position for long stretches of time without moving. A couple of times I thought she had died. Going from being "the babies" to "the outcasts" seems to have made them very depressed. I feel so sorry for these poor dogs. If I were these dogs breeder and I knew about this, I would be heartbroken.

[gemy]

And folks wonder why breeders don't want to place puppies in a young persons home? It takes a leap of faith. You trust and hope that this 30yr old won't desert their dog if they get two children - or a big job move. You trust n hope that they call you first if they need for what-ever reason to re-home their dog. You try by keeping in touch with your puppy owners to stay on top of things. You can do all the reference checks etc, but at the end of the day - there is just hope.


But how many times with a health issue - or a re-homing one - have we asked have you talked with the breeder or notified the breeder and the answer is no.

[Doodlebug]

Another thing.....I know you probably can't ask about a potential adopter's health, but I know a person who is in her 50's who is in very poor health. She just lost her border collie and wanted another dog. She has been in search of an assisted living housing because she can't keep up her home and can't get around well. She just adopted a JRT puppy mix from a shelter. This dog is full of energy but she can't walk it. She does not know if an assisted living place will allow a puppy. It is getting pretty big and has a lot of energy. What is going to happen to this puppy if she can't take it with her? And if she can, are people at an assisted living facility going to take it outside, walk it and go buy food for it? She has no kids or family. It is pretty apparent to me that she is not thinking about the welfare of this puppy in the future, so it is up to the rescue that let her take this puppy to try to find a forever home for this puppy. Unfortunately, in the case of this puppy, it remains to be seen if this will be a furever home. I can understand that this lady is lonely and wanted a companion but I don't think a puppy was the right choice for her. I don't know what she was thinking.