Question about bottle fed babies from mama who had c-section
 

I have a couple questions…

My yorkie Tink had to have an emergency c-section yesterday because her pups were to big. She had 5 pups but 1 had died :( I elected to have her spayed at the same time.

Anywho we now have 4 babies who got colostrum from her at first but now her milk is drying up due to the spaying.

My question is feeding tips PLEASE! They are very alert and have a great suck reflex. What is the best kind of milk to fed them? Vet said every 2 hours but when I have been checking on them they haven't really wanted the bottle and tummies are nice and round still. How do I know they have had enough?

Then as far as elimination I have just been rubbing and they pee like crazy lol. I haven't seen poop yet. How often do I do this? Any tips?

I have bottle fed a couple other pups before another litter but my mama would clean them like crazy. This time mama isn't cleaning them at all.

So any tips much appreciated!!

Vet gave me weights as 146, 163, 106, 109. Is that mg ha ha?

Any tips MUCH appreciated. Also any c-section tips for my mama :)

I actually have another litter due to arrive in the next week and was planning on letting them feed off that mama. Just rotate half and half at different times.

I have no advice on a proper formula for puppies (others here will) but I think that there's more to it than milk and they should be fed every two hours around the clock -- just like your vet said. They have very little in the way of reserves and they really must eat every two hours. I also question the ability of your other mom to be to nurse two litters at the same time. It's setting her up for eclampsia. What will you do if mom#2 also can't nurse? I certainly hope you are able to be at home 24/7 for the next month or more because these mommas and babies are really going to be depending on you.

There is more to it then feeding them? Like my vet said? I don't understand why the tone of your message starts off positive and then gets really negative. I am home 24/7 thanks and I have A LOT of help. That isn't an issue. I had an eye on my dog and when I noticed she was not laboring puppies we took her to the vet asap. They did x-ray and saw that the puppies weren't going to come out because of the size. I had already been to vet the week before. I'm not asking for negativity I'm asking for advice or TIPS.

I'm going to be feeding the puppies as I already have been as well as keeping them warm, feeding off mom and keeping her needs met after her having surgery. Having my other dog help with some feedings is what I was asking about depending on size of her litter of course. I'm aware of the calcium issues.

If anyone has experience with any of these things I'm looking for tips. I can google all of this info as well as ask my vet (which I have been doing) but I was on here for experts in this specific breed.

I have no idea if "OwnedbyJezebel" is a breeder, but I can assure you her concerns are right on target. She was not being negative to you....she is informing you of a very real concern you may be facing in a very short time. I would suggest you feed this new litter a formula that I use on any pups that need assistance. Are you an experienced breeder? You should be weighing those babies at least twice a day, to monitor exactly where they are, nourishment wise. They should be gaining weight every time you weigh them. The formula I use delivers 14-16 calories/cc....puppies NEED the calories in order to thrive, and you need to feed them every 2 hours around the clock. Your female SHOULD have milk come in regardless of the c-section....I have never had a female that dried up due to a c-section...they were sore, a few had to get used to the idea of feeding babies, but you keep the babies in there with momma and let them suck....it will cause the milk to drop....watch momma to be sure she doesnt reject them....if she wants nothing to do with them after a week, YOU are now momma! The formula I use:
8 oz Just Born
4 oz Pedialyte
1 raw egg yolk
3 tbsp Dr.Millers Pet Nutra Drops (May substitute 3 tbsp Karo syrup + 3 tbsp Vi-Daylin pedi vitamins)
1 cup live culture yogurt (can use Kefir milk)
Mix all this together, allow all bubbles to disappear before feeding, and store in frige for a week.
Feed warmed, every 2 hours....must feed 1cc per oz of pups weight, every 2 hours, around the clock. All the help you have available to you at home is going to be needed.....especially when the next litter is born. If you DO put these additional babies on momma #2, and she takes them and does not kill them, you MUST make certain you are giving her calcium in order to prevent eclampsia....you hopefully have Oral Cal Plus, which is a chicken flavored paste, that you can give momma per directions on the dispenser, to keep from her having eclampsia. If this all goes south on you, learn how to tube feed, because you will be feeding a bushel of puppies! These are the FACTS, not negativity! It is help you asked for....

We are going into their 4th day and I'm bottle feeding every 2 hours around the clock. My dog doesn't have milk anymore because she was also spayed at the time of c-section so they said that it would dry up due to the hormone not giving the go to make it.

I have decided to keep the two dog completely separate. My other dog showed aggression when I got home with the pups and my other mama which is never does. So I will continue to bottle feed.

I have had 3 other litters and have dealt with fading puppies and around the clock feedings. I'm not an expert and this time has really been far different. Everything that could go wrong has with my one mama. Hence the spay. I'm just trying to get through the next two weeks fattening up puppies.

The problem I'm having is my mama is not wanting to take a break from the pups and getting very worn out. So I have to make her take breaks. She is panting a lot but only when sitting with the puppies. I'm not sure if she is overheating or in pain or both.

The other puppies aren't here yet but this mom is the one that has had other litters and she is a great mom. Her last litter was 8 but 2 were very weak and died from fading puppy syndrome. Two others were going as well and fed them around the clock.

If this momma is a great mom, she is stressing out over her babies, and is probably in pain too. Did your vet give her pain med to take? I have always given mine a little Torbutrol in Vitamino every 4-6 hours....she needs something for the pain and since you say she is drying up and not nursing pups, you dont have to worry about the babies getting the pain med. I would bottle feed the babies as long as they are strong enough to suckle and not aspirate...monitor the weight twice a day so you know where you stand.....start tube feeding the minute the babies start to decline.....and I would put the babies with momma and let her bond with them....I am not sure what she is possibly doing that makes it look like she is "over working herself". I would feed babies and then let this "great mmma" do what she knows very well how to do.....and medicate her for her pain....

The babies are still sucking off of her and she is cleaning them and keeping them warm. I think that is overwhelms her with the pain. She is on that med but every 12 hours. I just did weights and the first weights a couple days ago from vet are 106g, 109g, 146g, 163g and the weights today are 110g, 120g, 170g, 198g. So they are going up which makes me happy. All the puppies are very strong even the tiny one. They were nothing like my faders in my last litter.

I think my mama is working to hard after major surgery so I just take her out and tell her to lay down. She sits until she is breathing normal again. Or I will give her some can food and nutri-cal.

We go to vet tomorrow for docking so I will have a list of questions. I have been doing the pee eliminations but I haven't seen a poop. However with the mama licking so much I think she is doing some of it. I have seen poops in the bedding.

Do you have any tricks for poop elimination?
Getting the pain pill down the throat of my Tink has been a fun task. She spits it out over and over even when I get it down deep in her throat.

I appreciate all the feedback it just helps when people know the breed. Its not a regular puppy they're tiny.

Thanks

That is why I mentioned the Torbutrol in Vitamino....that is a liquid and my ladies all take it without hesitation, and it never makes them vomit......it is given 1/2cc, 3-4 times a day.....that dosage is for a 5-6 lb female. If I were you, I would request the liqiud Torbutrol in Vitamino, and ask if the dosage times can be increased in order to be effective at relieving her pain. She is doing the pooping clean up for you, so no need to worry there.....she is doing what all mommas do, great mommas, that is! Let her do her thing...once you get that pain med adjusted for effectiveness, she will also relax some, and not be so "wound up". Pups are gaining weight OK....

Liquid would be much better! So would throughout. It seems like she has a certain few hours she feels great and then the rest she is just ok or feeling overwhelmed.

Thats good about the poop thing I was getting freaked out. I'm glad I'm going to vet tomorrow I will be asking 101 questions. Hopefully I will be able to adjust the meds as well. It the vet I always go to however they have rotating Drs. and the one I got the day she needed the c-section was anti-breeder. So she hasn't been very easy to work with. Tomorrow I will be seeing the owner and he is great.

I have a bigger pup that is a whiner. He is the one that loves to eat off of his mama but then he seems to not want to drink from the bottle. I have to sit with him longer then the others because he is a pain lol. Then I have the tiny tiny one who eats too fast and feels like he could sit and eat all day if you let him. So its been an interesting balance. I'm very tired but I realize that this is just a moment in time and once we pull them through the next few weeks we will be home free.

I have a lot of people wanting to help but I don't really trust anyone but my self to look for all the things that are needed when feeding them. I have a routine going so I'm just doing it and my family is holding down the fort.

Again I appreciate all the info. The boy that was the stud was a pound and a half smaller then her and she is small 4.5lbs so I'm not sure how to heck she had 5 puppies inside her.

The eating differences.....with another litter on the way, with unknown results (hopefully there will be NO issues!), this is exactly why I tube feed these babies. You deliver the exact amount the pup needs, it is very quick, enabling you to get an entire litter tube fed within 5-7 minutes, and back in with momma. After you learn to tube feed, it is actually much safer than bottle feeding, avoiding the risk of puppy eating too fast and aspirating. It puts NO effort to nurse on the weaker pups, and it is a precise delivery of known calories for growing babies. As far as size of the parents.....that have very little to actually do with what this litter will be.....it is the PEDIGREE, the lines behind your breeding pair, that determines what these babies will look like, size, personality, etc.....and that involves many more generations back than the three you get with the AKC. Knowing what is behind your breeding pair, enables you to have a very educated guesstimation of what you are going to be producing in that litter.

We got tails docked today and dew claws removed. We just weighed the pups again and they all have gone up another ounce or a little more since yesterday.

It seems that she might have milk. The one vet that did the c-section and spay said absolutely not that her milk would dry up. Then today the vet (this time owner same clinic) said she absolutely can have milk. Now I'm all confused. They eat off of her and my biggest one hardly bottle feeds.

Now the question that I forgot to ask was if she does have milk is her pain meds going to babies?

The stud does AKC shows and has champion bloodlines. I haven't fully looked at the paperwork though.

Today we hit day 59 for my other dogs pregnancy. Crossing my fingers all goes well. She is a lot larger like double the weight of my other dog, has had litters before and we used same tiny stud. So will see.

I was so hoping you would see momma producing milk....all my c-sections have nursed babies, even ones that have been emergently spayed at the time the c-section was done.....what that vet told you was not correct, and that is why you need a vet that is knowledgable about small dogs, Yorkies in particular, especially where breeding and whelping is concerned.....but I was not going to argue that point....you would see soon enough with those babies nursing on momma, her milk would indeed come down! The babies will not be affected by the 1/2 - 1cc of Torbutrol every 4-6 hours....it has never bothered/sedated/made sick any of my babies....they will be fine! Good luck with momma #2 and kiddos!!!

So the last couple days have been crazy. My Tink was doing great but then she stopped eating. This is VERY unusual for her. She was also acting strange trying to pee like she was marking her territory. Panting still, very limp feeling after feeding babies. Just other weird stuff that wasn't like her. So I brought her to vet last night. I NEED TO FIND A NEW VET but its been one thing after another and they're open late. It was 7pm when I took her in. She ended up having high WBC and very low calcium. So they watched her through the night. But even they seemed like they didn't know that much about it all. She is now stable but staying another night.

NOW this morning my other dog Lily went into labor (she has had a couple other litters). It was around 6:30am she had them naturally a total of 6 puppies. OY VEY she is a bigger yorkie and her last litter was 8. She cleaned them all up on her own and is feeding them. However now she is panting a lot. I brought her some food and water which she ate and drank.

I'm thinking about giving her calcium and I need to make up some of that welping pudding.

Currently trying to do that while finding a new vet like asap. For docking, spaying her and checking ups.

That calcium paste, Oral Cal Plus, which I mentioned in first post, will correct a calcium level almost immediately and is absolutely necessary to have on hand....especially with the size of litters your other momma is having. You have the other momma with sounds pre eclamptic....you need to get some of that Oral Cal Plus NOW....it is chicken flavored and they do not vomit it up as easily as they do with the other emergent oral calcuim supplements. I always have blood work done so I have a baseline on calcium levels, Hb/Hct, ........watch these calcium levels on these mommas....you will get into a real issue if you end up rushing them to ER, seizing.....glad you are looking for another vet....you really do need one!....lots of questionable information given by these vets to you....I would be really worried about my momma staying in their care!

Is the calcium paste your talking about nutracal or is that something different? I called to pet store and they said they don't sell calcium tabs.

I found a vet that has a yorkie and has also been a breeder of yorkies. They have calcium chewables. Everywhere that I'm calling doesn't have the Oral Cal Plus. I'm on hold at a feed store right now.

I ordered the Oral Cal Plus and made welping pudding and the other easy one. She drank it up like crazy. So I crushed up a tums and put it in there and she drank it all. My other pup is staying another night at the vet.

Breeders buy this for their bitches....you get it from Revival Vet Supplies....it is NOT a tablet....it is a chicken flavored paste that is in a big syringe that you adjust the dosage with a ring, and then give the paste into the dogs mouth....you can NOT get this in pet stores....this is for breeders to keep their mommas from going into eclampsia.....are you familiar with eclampsia, so you know when you need to give the calcium?

Now I'm familiar but not before. I think I already missed my opportunity. I'm not breeding anymore puppies after this. My one is already spayed and then I'm spaying my other one in a few weeks once she finishes nursing.

She is panting like crazy. I took her from the puppies for a little bit in the yard and she wasn't panting at all. Only while nursing.

I ordered from that site and got quick ship. I made the whelping pudding and the liquid fast one. She didn't really like the pudding but loved the liquid one. She has been eating.

I should be picking up my other dog tomorrow and the vet told me that they want me to wean early. I asked how you do that and she said she will have to look into it all because they don't generally have puppies like this. I asked about me just supplementing and they seem to want to have the pups on her some. However if she has the depleted calcium I don't know how that is a good idea at all. It didn't take much for her to have an issue.

Keep that other one eatring/drinking that whelping pudding....that stuff is fabulous and the dogs love it...add cottage cheese to her diet if she likes that.....canned salmon with those bones crushed up is also excellent source of calcium....after you get that Oral Cal Plus, just give 1/2cc to 1cc into her mouth every other day....but you are going to HAVE to draw calcium levels once a week so you will know where in the world you are working from! When you pick your momma up tomorrow, tell them you NEED a calcium level done before you bring her home so you know EXACTLY where in the world you are working from! You are right, her calcium plummeted with very little nursing....this seems to indicate to me she was not within a good normal-high normal range to begin with.....and you have no idea where you were to begin with.....baseline bloodwork is critical, in my opinion. You need calcium level baseline on momma that just delivered that huge litter, again, so you know where in the world you are working from! By the way, an elevated WBC (white blood count) and indicate infection....if these vets that really do not seem to know what is best for Yorkies, put her on antibiotics for a possible infection, make sure it is that "pink bubble gum"liquid Amoxicillin, which the puppies can tolerate. As far as weaning early, you get a handle on the calcium and get her on calcium supplement to keep her level mid to high normal range, and you can leave those babies on her.

Okay thanks for all the advice. They said they would be doing calcium level again tomorrow before she might go home. I'm going to start seeing the new vet with my other dog that owns a yorkie and has breed them. The pups are looking really strong which is good. A few tiny ones but most are boys 4 boys and 2 girls. She just went out to the bathroom, got some water, ate a little food. I had got her cottage cheese today so I will see if she wants some right now.

Lily looks strong and super attentive just has a lot more panting then I have ever seen her do.

When I called the feed stores, vets and pet stores trying to find this Oral Cal Plus you would think I was speaking chinese lol. The only place that had any sort of calcium supplement was the vet with the yorkie she had tablets.

Be sure you are checking mommas temp morning and evening, with the panting she is doing....she passed all the placentas for certain, didnt she? Make sure she isnt too hot....you dont have her and the babies too close to a heating pad do you? You dont want her to get dehydrated.....make sure she is still drinking plenty of water....make sure you keep her glucose up too....

I'm not using a heating bad because its like 100 or higher here in Las Vegas right now. But I don't have any air on so the room temp is like 80. She isn't panting as much now. She does still when she has been sitting nursing them for to long. I have just got her up and out to go to the bathroom and walk around. She is eating well actually A LOT.

Tink came home today as well. I have the two separate because Lily is being super duper aggressive and very territorial over her pups. Tink is doing well on augmentin which they said is the same thing basically as amox. Its not the bubble gum pink one though its white. They also told me to give her 1/8 of a tums twice a day. I hid it inside of her food but then later saw in her bowl the stupid tums. The Oral Cal Plus should be here soon they told me it shipped. Babies are all doing well.

Tink has been nursing I saw her starting to pant so I took her outside. I got her some whelping pudding she loves that stuff. She has been eating like crazy huge portions of food for such a tiny thing. I have them on puppy food canned science diet.

My Oral Cal Plus arrived today. Is 1cc just one notch on it? Do I stop with tums if I'm giving this? Tink is also on the antibiotic augmentin which she said is the same as amox but not the pretty yummy pink kind. All the pups now have tails docked, dew claws out. Tinks are getting big at just a little over a week old. I have tried to take on 1 feeding for her but her pups are stubborn. I only have 2 of the 4 that will drink from the bottle. The other two yell at me and refuse to suck. Today Lily got out of the room I have her in for just a second and went after Tink. She is SUPER aggressive. Thankfully I was able to snatch her up before Tink got her. (Tink is one that got c-section).

I had a question. As the pups get bigger and they start to eat more is this more taxing on the moms? I mean seems like a stupid question but they will be feeling stronger after recovering more from birth and does the body start to get use to feeding the pups?

I have noticed that Lily (which she has done this before) will not want to feed the smaller pups. So I did a special feeding just with them on her and took the others out to weigh and chart them.

The Oral Cal Plus is all you actually need to keep their calcium levels up....1cc is indeed one notch on that plunger. You should have your base line calcium blood work level...that will determine how much you need to give....if the calcium level is high normal, you should be ble to keep it up with just 1/2 cc, every other day. You must have the calcium level checked again at the end of the week, to see where you are with the calcium.....you may be able to give 1/2cc every 3rd day.....but you need to check your calcium levels with the issue you had so suddenly with her, especially now with her nursing babies. That is the only calcium supplement I give....it takes such a small amount to correct the level, and it works rapidly.....if you have a momma that gets symptomatic with eclampsia, ie weakness, stumbling, trembling, seizure, etc you can stop and correct the plunging calcium immediately and save that mommas life by giving her 2-3cc dose, right before you load up and rush to the vet.....it is an emergent treatment that will keep her alive until you can get her to a vet for medical care. You can maintain her level with 1/2cc-1cc every 2-3 days, but you need to check it with bloodwork so you can see how much a drain those babies are taking on her.....you dont want to overdose her with the calcium either.....
Mommas get stronger and babies eat more and more.....it is taxing on mommas, which is why you have to watch her closely to make sure she is on an even keel....some mommas never have calcium issues....I have one female that has real problems with her calcium levels and it requires constant monitoring....it is because of her that I was first introduced to the Oral Cal Plus several years ago.....it saved her life. Watch Lily closely with the smaller babies....make sure she feeds them and you can supplement what she allows them to have. Be sure you are weighing the babies at least once a day....I weigh my babies twice a day, morning and evening.... Also, be very careful with these two mommas being aggressive with each other....someone can get killed or seriously injured.....and it is not uncommon for mommas to get all upset with crowds, and then eat puppies....so keep peace with these girls....keep them completely separated......

I'm pretty sure my Lily thinks Tink took her babies. Tink is a really sweet dog she never bites, nips or even gets mad. So when Lily started to go after her she just dropped to the ground in submission. Lily gets really super over-protective when she has babies acts nutty.

I did 1 notch for Lily she is bigger and .5 for Tink who is smaller. They're eating well and I'm trying to supplement when I see a need. Tinks babies are 1 week 3 days and looking really good. They sleep a lot more now. She is able to take some time to sleep away from them on the floor. I have been keeping a close eye on them around the clock.

If they are feeding for to long both of them pant. So I get them some food and try to give them water. Both are being horrible with water. But Lily likes the whelping liquid and Tink loves the pudding so they have been eating a lot of that.

I can't wait for July when the puppies are bigger and starting to wean lol.

Holy moly.....what a thread!

I know huh!! I just had to come and peek and see how the babies are doing.

You need a calcium baseline (blood work) so you know how much to give....
you dont want to overdose them...do not give that everyday, guessing how much you need or you will get into trouble....

Lily's pups are 1 week old today :) Tink's are 2 weeks old tomorrow. I wish I could figure out how to attach a photo. One of Tink's babies is already almost a POUND he is a fatty.