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Old 12-07-2013, 02:06 PM   #1
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Default Could i get an oppinion on my pups please

Hello i was wondering if i could get an opinion on my pups please. I was told by both breeders they have good pedigrees and that the pups are perfect. I just wanted to get a second opinion though and see what people think on Yorkie talk.

This is my little girl Star pedigree.

http://i42.tinypic.com/ou4fi0.jpg

This is my little boy Harley pedigree.

http://i39.tinypic.com/11ki2oh.jpg

I didn't realise at the time Harleys a bit inbred which i know from reading on here and in a couple of books can be a good or bad thing, depending on how its done. I didn't think to ask my breeder at the time as i never noticed it. So I thought i'd ask about that on here to.

When i bought the pups i told the breeders i only wanted them as pets. Harley breeder told me he was perfect and i could do anything with him. Star breeder advised me that i should breed her a couple of times as its a new line being introduced in to the UK.

Anyway here's some pic of my little babies, i love the little loons to bits.

yours Lee & Joanne
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Harley & Star 1 07.12.13.JPG (194.1 KB, 100 views)
File Type: jpg Harley 1 07.12.13.JPG (184.1 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg Star 1 07.12.13.JPG (178.6 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg Harley & Star in bed 2 07.12.13.JPG (136.2 KB, 56 views)
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:24 PM   #2
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You can never tell if a puppy is going to be a good breeder until they are fully grown.
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:37 PM   #3
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Can't offer breeding or lineage advice, but they are both adorable!
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 View Post
You can never tell if a puppy is going to be a good breeder until they are fully grown.
I wouldn't even think about breeding them until they grew up and i knew what kind of temperament they had and if they had any kind of health issues or other issue.

To be honest I've been seriously considering showing them I'm just a little bit lost on what to do as I've never shown dogs before. I also don't know if its even worth going through all the work in case the pups develop faults as they grow. it could be a fun hobby though.

My breeder has been excellent though and is giving me all sorts of advice on how to train the pups. Whats confusing me is basic things like Ringcraft classes or which Yorkshire terrier club i should join, as I'm in no mans lands as far as Yorkshire terrier club area coverage goes.

Also in Merseyside where i am there are well over 20 Ringcraft training groups, i just don't know which one to join. Or even whether i should ignore the local groups and travel much further to get in to the best ringcraft classes for my pups. You see thats the sort of thing my breeder can't help with as they're on the other side of the country from me.

I am reading as much as i can I've got 3 Yorkshire terrier books a beginners guide book to show dogs. There's just so much information out there it's a bit overwhelming so any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Challenger1978 View Post
I wouldn't even think about breeding them until they grew up and i knew what kind of temperament they had and if they had any kind of health issues or other issue.

To be honest I've been seriously considering showing them I'm just a little bit lost on what to do as I've never shown dogs before. I also don't know if its even worth going through all the work in case the pups develop faults as they grow. it could be a fun hobby though.

My breeder has been excellent though and is giving me all sorts of advice on how to train the pups. Whats confusing me is basic things like Ringcraft classes or which Yorkshire terrier club i should join, as I'm in no mans lands as far as Yorkshire terrier club area coverage goes.

Also in Merseyside where i am there are well over 20 Ringcraft training groups, i just don't know which one to join. Or even whether i should ignore the local groups and travel much further to get in to the best ringcraft classes for my pups. You see thats the sort of thing my breeder can't help with as they're on the other side of the country from me.

I am reading as much as i can I've got 3 Yorkshire terrier books a beginners guide book to show dogs. There's just so much information out there it's a bit overwhelming so any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
You wouldn't know if they where show quality until they got older too. Breeders should only breed to better the breed and should only breed dogs who are an excellent representation of the breed and you won't know if they are an excellent example of the breed until they are grown.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:10 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Challenger1978 View Post
I wouldn't even think about breeding them until they grew up and i knew what kind of temperament they had and if they had any kind of health issues or other issue.

To be honest I've been seriously considering showing them I'm just a little bit lost on what to do as I've never shown dogs before. I also don't know if its even worth going through all the work in case the pups develop faults as they grow. it could be a fun hobby though.

My breeder has been excellent though and is giving me all sorts of advice on how to train the pups. Whats confusing me is basic things like Ringcraft classes or which Yorkshire terrier club i should join, as I'm in no mans lands as far as Yorkshire terrier club area coverage goes.

Also in Merseyside where i am there are well over 20 Ringcraft training groups, i just don't know which one to join. Or even whether i should ignore the local groups and travel much further to get in to the best ringcraft classes for my pups. You see thats the sort of thing my breeder can't help with as they're on the other side of the country from me.

I am reading as much as i can I've got 3 Yorkshire terrier books a beginners guide book to show dogs. There's just so much information out there it's a bit overwhelming so any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
I think that in the early days it is best to just get out to a show handling class which is what I assume you mean by ringcraft. A toy breed focussed or run group might be a good selection, but you should be able to go out an audit a class before joining the group.
This is much homework to do at home, we start training of stacking (all fun training) when pups are quite young 8-10 wks old, stacking the pups on our lap, then on a table etc. Also grooming training.
Socialization and proper exercise are also key to the healthy development of any pup, but most especially a show pup.

Once my pups have had all their shots, part of their socialization will be going to a show just to be in the environment, get to hear smell etc, all the show sounds.

I do know that Europe does things differently to North America, but here we highly encourage breed specific health testing prior to breeding any champion dogs.

You did not say the age of your pups and or their weight at what ever age they are. I believe The Kennel Club still has as part of their standard a 7lb weight maximum, or approx. 3.2 kgs.

There is quite a lot to learn for sure, and it is overwhelming to all of us just starting out. Your mentor, your show/breed mentor should be able to guide you, if you truly want to start breeding to the betterment of the breed.

I don't want to dissuade you from a wonderfull path and hobby, but the show world can be a bit of a hard thing to navigate without a mentor, breeding correctly needs an experienced hand to guide you. Learn Learn all you can. There are many on line resource tools to help you understand the genetics, the COI, and what all that means. Learn structure, the correct structure for the YT, correct temperament/attitude, Learn all the Health problems inherent in this breed, learn how and where to test for them, coat and color, train your dogs in basic obedience, then there is the whole select the correct stud for your dog, and all you need to know about whelping.

You also need to get out to shows preferably with your mentor, and just observe ringside; Yorkies of course, but other breeds in the ring as well. You will get to see different handlers and how they present/show their dog.

I do remember my first big show that my young puppy and I were entered in, the ring steward (who I found out was also a judge), but was stewarding that day, after my obvious dismal performance with a very good dog, took me aside and said, would you like to learn? I said yes! She said come back and sit ringside. So I crated my boy, as fast as I could and spent 4 hrs ringside, while she pointed out the whys and which handlers to watch. After the show was over, she offered to give me some pointers in private with my dog. She took my boy in hand and showed me how "he" could show like a show dog. In fact I even said; oh my He Looks like a Show Boy; she turned to me with a Glare, and Said HE is A Show Boy!. LOL LOL. She took me through the correct pacing for my boy, the natural stacking ability he had, how to handle the lead in my hand, how to present my boy to show off his best attributes. Now I had been in the ring before, had group and private show lessons, prior to this first National Specialty I went to, but what I learned from her never ever was forgotten. Nor was her kindness in taking a novice in hand.

I do not know your background in breeding, if for example, you have bred other breeds before, but there is quite a bit to learn. Not always but often a new show person who would like to get into breeding, starts with one show male dog, that their breeder/mentor, has agreed to place with them. You learn the show world, and from the male stud owners perspective how to show/train, coach, and then eventually stud your dog out. Of course you learn how to look at pedigrees, how to evaluate other dogs in the ring, and all this goes into when you get your first show gal from a reputable breeder.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:19 AM   #7
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Thank you so much for taking the time to reply gemy, it really is appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy
I think that in the early days it is best to just get out to a show handling class which is what I assume you mean by ringcraft. A toy breed focussed or run group might be a good selection, but you should be able to go out an audit a class before joining the group.
This is much homework to do at home, we start training of stacking (all fun training) when pups are quite young 8-10 wks old, stacking the pups on our lap, then on a table etc. Also grooming training.
Socialization and proper exercise are also key to the healthy development of any pup, but most especially a show pup.
Yes Ringcraft classes are about learning how to handle a dog in a show.

Also i have been training the pups to get used to grooming and basic obedience already. Which to be honest has actually proven to be extremely easy (clicker training). Not because I'm a great trainer but because Harley is incredibly food obsessive and he will do anything for a biscuit also whatever he does Star copies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy
Once my pups have had all their shots, part of their socialization will be going to a show just to be in the environment, get to hear smell etc, all the show sounds.
Harley has had both sets of shots and been chipped as of last Thursday. Star i had to have hers restarted as no vet uses the Eurican vaccine in my area (i tried at least a dozen) which is what the vet used for my breeder. I've also paid for and signed them up for a life time booster vaccination program.

Now I've mentioned shots, a thought came to me last night. Is it advisable to get dogs that are to be shown vaccinated for Bordatella ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy
I do know that Europe does things differently to North America, but here we highly encourage breed specific health testing prior to breeding any champion dogs.
I believe the same sort of thing goes on in the UK I'm not 100% certain though. From what i understand things have changed greatly over recent years though. Various practices like tail docking have been banned, inbreeding between mother son and father daughter has been banned. Also dames are now only allowed to have 4 liters at most registered with the KC.

Basically the health of the dog itself has been made the outright priority. So in some case even the standards of the dogs have been slightly changed for health reasons. As there were far to many breeds in the UK coming from to small a gene pool which was inbred to hell and back and causing all sorts of health issues.

Luckily from what i understand Yorkies are generally in great health though in the UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy
You did not say the age of your pups and or their weight at what ever age they are. I believe The Kennel Club still has as part of their standard a 7lb weight maximum, or approx. 3.2 kgs
At just over 8 weeks Harley was 1.1lb and at a little over 11 weeks he was 1.8 lb. I had though been slightly over feeding him according to the vet as he had a bit of a big belly. Star is slightly smaller i can't for the life of me remember if the vet told me her weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy
There is quite a lot to learn for sure, and it is overwhelming to all of us just starting out. Your mentor, your show/breed mentor should be able to guide you, if you truly want to start breeding to the betterment of the breed.

I don't want to dissuade you from a wonderfull path and hobby, but the show world can be a bit of a hard thing to navigate without a mentor, breeding correctly needs an experienced hand to guide you. Learn Learn all you can. There are many on line resource tools to help you understand the genetics, the COI, and what all that means. Learn structure, the correct structure for the YT, correct temperament/attitude, Learn all the Health problems inherent in this breed, learn how and where to test for them, coat and color, train your dogs in basic obedience, then there is the whole select the correct stud for your dog, and all you need to know about whelping.

You also need to get out to shows preferably with your mentor, and just observe ringside; Yorkies of course, but other breeds in the ring as well. You will get to see different handlers and how they present/show their dog.
I don't actually have a mentor but hopefully I'll make friends along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy
I do remember my first big show that my young puppy and I were entered in, the ring steward (who I found out was also a judge), but was stewarding that day, after my obvious dismal performance with a very good dog, took me aside and said, would you like to learn? I said yes! She said come back and sit ringside. So I crated my boy, as fast as I could and spent 4 hrs ringside, while she pointed out the whys and which handlers to watch. After the show was over, she offered to give me some pointers in private with my dog. She took my boy in hand and showed me how "he" could show like a show dog. In fact I even said; oh my He Looks like a Show Boy; she turned to me with a Glare, and Said HE is A Show Boy!. LOL LOL. She took me through the correct pacing for my boy, the natural stacking ability he had, how to handle the lead in my hand, how to present my boy to show off his best attributes. Now I had been in the ring before, had group and private show lessons, prior to this first National Specialty I went to, but what I learned from her never ever was forgotten. Nor was her kindness in taking a novice in hand.

I do not know your background in breeding, if for example, you have bred other breeds before, but there is quite a bit to learn. Not always but often a new show person who would like to get into breeding, starts with one show male dog, that their breeder/mentor, has agreed to place with them. You learn the show world, and from the male stud owners perspective how to show/train, coach, and then eventually stud your dog out. Of course you learn how to look at pedigrees, how to evaluate other dogs in the ring, and all this goes into when you get your first show gal from a reputable breeder.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours.
You've gave me a lot to think about there. I really do appreciate you taking the time to write that out for me, thank you.
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Old 12-08-2013, 01:50 PM   #8
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I can't tell you much about your pedigrees, but I do know from what little I've read the Durrer line is one of the well known Yorkie lines and it has produced some famous show dogs.

I agree with everything Gemy said...finding a mentor will really help you out...especially if you are thinking about breeding!!

If you plan on showing, you'll definitely want to expose your pups to that kind of environment so they feel comfortable in the show ring. One of the first time's I showed AKC, I was showing a Shar pei and she tried to bite the judge because she was scared. I was just a kid, so I am sure the judge was more lenient on me than she would have been if I was an adult. Needless to say, we didn't win that day!! Anyways....it will help both you and your pups out if they are exposed to that kind of environment before you show. Plus, watching how other handlers do it can really help.

If you don't want to show...but want your dogs to be shown, you can also hire a handler to show your dogs.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:18 PM   #9
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Bordatella vaccine, here in North America it is standard practice to vaccinate against, and most show venues require it. Now having said that the vaccine is only good against a couple of the strains of bordatella, but nevertheless it is usually required.

How-ever I would advise against the nasal spray vaccine, use the injection instead. Large or small breeds often can have adverse re-actions to the spray vaccine.

Your dogs need to be crate trained, as every show requires you to crate your dogs when not being shown.

You will need a ringside table. Also a show equipment accumulation of various grooming supplies and emergency first aid kit.

Never leave your dog un-attended, for Yorkies you can carry your crate into the washroom with you.

I do not know the actual show environment in the UK, but outdoor shows in the summer time here require a bit more equipment. Fans etc if it is hot out, and something we call a kitchen shelter. Essentially to protect you and your dog from heat, rain, what-ever.

Once you set up at a show, you get to know your next door show neighbours, and we all look out for each other and our dogs. So if you do need to go to the washroom, you can ask your next door neighbour to keep an eye out for your dog. And most folks are willing to do that.
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:17 AM   #10
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No way would I EVER buy a dog that has been inbred. You are asking for it. They are trying to dazzle you with a pedigree but realistically they are inbred point blank!!
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:00 AM   #11
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Those pedigrees are not dazzling to my eye in anyway.

Way too many non champions even one step back in the pedigree, both parents I believe were not ch;s.

And I say to The Kennel Club mandate the breed specific more than a few genetic tests out there.

And please tell me where is your Nationwide reporting and independently evaluating and recording those health test results for all your breeding dogs?

You do not know seriously you do not know other than by word of mouth, what is the health of your line or your breed, unless you test and report health issued for purebred breeding stock to a National Registry on a mandatory basis.

And in breeding has its place in the development of a breeding program. But hear this it is A BREEDING PROGRAM, and not just convenience or sloppiness that had Grand daughter bred to GrandPa. ANd yes that is still in breeding. Albeit a different COI much different to brother/sister matings.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy View Post
Those pedigrees are not dazzling to my eye in anyway.

Way too many non champions even one step back in the pedigree, both parents I believe were not ch;s.

And I say to The Kennel Club mandate the breed specific more than a few genetic tests out there.

And please tell me where is your Nationwide reporting and independently evaluating and recording those health test results for all your breeding dogs?

You do not know seriously you do not know other than by word of mouth, what is the health of your line or your breed, unless you test and report health issued for purebred breeding stock to a National Registry on a mandatory basis.

And in breeding has its place in the development of a breeding program. But hear this it is A BREEDING PROGRAM, and not just convenience or sloppiness that had Grand daughter bred to GrandPa. ANd yes that is still in breeding. Albeit a different COI much different to brother/sister matings.
Sorry i don't understand, have i done something wrong ?
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:41 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by msipiqn1 View Post
No way would I EVER buy a dog that has been inbred. You are asking for it. They are trying to dazzle you with a pedigree but realistically they are inbred point blank!!
How do you think breeds where made and certain traits?
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