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I am glad for your little girls sake that all went well with the c-section. I honestly do not think anyone was trying to be rude here. You said you came for support but if you think about it when a post like this one comes up, we are a forum of Yorkie lovers, so of course our very first and largest concern is for the tiny expecting mom. I like others have said am so thankful you were financially able to get her the help she needed that so many who come here are not. I have smaller yorkies and I would never even consider risking their lives just so I could have pups from them. On this forum we do try to educate and there are so many experienced breeders here who have said over and over not to breed under 5lbs. They did not single you out. If you take the time to go over pasts questions on this subject you will see the same type responses to those posters. Maybe if you could when calmer take time to go back and slowly reread the posts you will see everyone was just trying to help. |
Price of entry is open dialog Brice, glad the puppies are doing okay. I have to disagree with your update. Going back through the thread there were plenty of people who offered you support and advice. Some of it wasn't the way you wanted it, but it was in an attempt to try and help. Further, yes there is a lot of bickering on this board and while there are people that I think can go a little extreme and accusatory - it's the way it is in any community. The bottom line is YOU did get advice and thank god you followed it. I for one found this thread very helpful and the emails from your doctor enlightening and I think it adds another piece of information to the "record" of threads. Now you know: Your yorkie is really almost on the too small side to breed; you can't depend on diapers for contraception; larger males with smaller females can be a problem; when breeding you should be in charge at all times; it's expensive not to know when the tie happened etc. etc. etc.etc. Last I wanted to address one more thing. Your post in a public forum is not just for YOU. It's about the whole community. The price of entry is open dialog. You're going to get professional breeders responding, nonbreeding dog owners responding, nondog owners responding, antagonists, helpfuls, people who donate a TON of their life towards shelters and dogs that a product of irresponsible breeding. And all we have to judge is by our experience and a few words on the screen. Example. In one of your first posts you said: - We don't know the exact date of conception.. only within a week. Then you said: - Bottom line is yes, it WAS an accident - we kept them separated to the best of our ability, and made sure she had a diaper on at all times to prevent something like this from happening, but during the night she somehow managed to wiggle out of her diaper, and got pregnant. The person in me trying to validate if your words are true could take those two statements and ask a ton more... eg. was it just one night out of the diaper? well then you would know when the tie took place... but AH if it wasn't and it was multiple times then it starts to sound fishy and then I have to tailor my response... and then I have to think why was the male intact still? etc. etc. Now this is just an example I don't need answers or care. My point is that I wish out of all of this I would be hearing from you a little more focus on maybe what you've learned and less on schooling everyone for their behavior, particularly when you were the one with the accident. I for one will love to see the puppies and hope you don't intend to breed again. If you do - please get a mentor and do dna testing, etc. etc. :) |
Impish what a great response! What time it took, to elucidate with clarity, the thinking of many breeders and long time fanciers of our breed. Yes accidents do happen, even when you have two intact opposite sex dogs in the house. I am thinking the result of hurricanes, tornadoes. home invasions et al. Or you fainted and or had a heartattack and inadvertently let your dogs out of their rooms and or crates. Those are accidents. I posted before as a breeder sometimes mishaps do happen. But we know it is our dereliction of duty that has occasioned this "accidental" breeding. We didn't latch the crate securely, we left the door open, we went to bed without checking the above. And we are human, but we are breeders; capable of making a termination decision, capable of rearing a litter of pups and DNA;ing to determine parentage. It happened to me. But it was with two fully health tested and purebred same breed dogs, that I did not want to mate to each other. Luckily nothing happened, as my gal only wanted to jump up onto my bed to be with me. The male would not go up on the bed, the Yorkie was in his crate. I could say it was an accident. But it was my fault if a tie had happened that night; no one elses! And just to note, no belly bands or diapers were even considered to be used as a deterrent to mating. It was separate crates and rooms. Unfortunately the two what should have been fail safes failed. Why human error of course. |
Lilly - the keywords in my reply were that we hadnt spayed her yet because we were "hoping" to "eventually" have a litter with her. But being as small as she is, she wasn't ready to until the time comes when/if she gains a handful of oz. So again, this was an accidental pregnancy, but it all worked out for the best. |
Lilly - PS.. I apologize if I replied harshly. Perhaps I misinterpreted your response. However I've taken the liberty of quoting you - here's what you said: "...So for a knowledgeable yorkie person/breeder to ((question a vet on saying breeding a 4lb dog is fine)), is not IMHO out of line at all & IMHO is not fine." So yes, you did say that. I've put it in parenthesis for you :) But anyway its ok, I know you're just sharing your knowledge and opinion. |
Rhetts - I found your post extremely and overwhelmingly rude. Not only did you call me a fool in 3rd person, and basically suggest I "tried" to bring harm (in fact death) upon my little girl, but you also outright called me a liar and that you think my claim of this being an accident is pure BS. The fact of the matter is that it WAS truly an accidental pregnancy, and that I did in fact take precautions to prevent it from happening. Accidents do happen. People can wear a condom and realize afterwards that it broke etc.. But that doesn't mean they didn't take precaution or that it wasn't an accident. Its these kinds of un-needed and un-solicited remarks/posts that im talking about, and make me shake my head in disappointment and disbelief of how rude some of you are. For those of you who haven't read her post in question yet, its on page 8. I'm fairly certain most will agree you crossed the line. |
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But you already have a measurement at least one of her fitness for breeding, that being the measurement of her pelvic opening that you told us your specialist did. She had too narrow an opening for those pups. The question you should be asking is, a) given a C section "if" I should want to breed this 4lb female, what are the risks with a natural whelp, or if I have to do a C section again because I had one the first time, what are the risks associated with 2 C sections. b) given her pelvic measurements if given her history of a C section a free whelp is recommended, will her pelvic measurements alone preclude her from free whelping? You have not done any health tests on either of your dogs, so I do sincerely hope you investigate things a whole lot better and of course make full disclosure for your puppy purchasers of this litter. |
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Belly bands and diapers are NOT birth control at all! They each have their function which is NOT birth control for crying out loud! As I explained in my previous post you need separate crates and preferably separate rooms, and exercise separately AND not let them have free run of the house with intact males while in heat. You according to your posts did not do this! Nor does it seem to me you asked a knowledgeable vet about how to prevent unwanted matings with you intact female. Or did he she actually say Diapers were contraceptives? I would love to know the answer to that. An accident is as I have posted before a very unusual set of circumstances that are UNAVOIDABLE, natural disasters, health disasters, fire, etc. Slipping out of a diaper is quite natural for dogs to do, what were your safeguards that were in place to guard against this? Separate rooms, separate crates? None of the forementioned? If not why not? |
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Spends more time telling us who knows the right way to post...and all that stupid bs. I don't think any of us need lessons from this person. |
Sorry I'm still on page 8 making my replies as I go, making my way to the end of all your posts. |
Lovetodream88 - The only reason I was feeding the pups on my own at first, is because it wasn't a natural birth, so momma didn't understand, and we had to begin giving her oxytocin spray up her nose so she would realize what was going on and take care of her babies. But I'm sure you know all about that lol. She's nursing now though. |
Bjh - thank you for your prayers and kind words. And I know I was warned she would probably need a Csection, but unfortunately due to how far along she was an emergency spay was not an option, so I followed the specialist's advice and followed through with it, expecting a Csection. As far as me saying I hadnt spayed her because i was hoping to breed her eventually, I stated in one of my last replies that the keywords are "hoping" and "eventually" (if/when she gained more weight). However now that this has happened, I do not plan on breeding her in the future, and will have her spayed very soon. The first night we had to feed the pups ourselves until momma started the oxytocin spray and realized they were her babies, but now she's nursing great. Thank you for all the great info. OwnedByJezebel - I wasn't upset that people didn't give me enough advice - I was upset because (1) many of them were rudely written, and repetitive of what was already said and understood, (2) many just ignored the situation I was in, and simply stated their opinions rudely, and that was it, rather than following their comments with help and support for the present situation, instead of just yelling about the past, and MOST OF ALL (3) after they all told me to get advice from a professional and I had posted what I was told, some people got even more stubborn and opinionated and rude, even though I had followed their suggestion and gotten advice from 2 different professionals (a vet, and a specialist). So you can't blame me for being blown away at how many of you act. For the most part you seem fine, but it was still rude to call me a failure and say it was no accident. Because not only did I make sure they were kept apart nearly the whole day, but I also made sure she always had a diaper on, which I now understand isn't the best way to avoid pregnancy, but it certainly helped during every single other heat, until this one when the boy slipped out of the room at 4am when I got up for work, and paired up with her in the middle of the night after her diaper somehow had fallen off. So I'm tired of those who say it was no accident, or that I didn't take precautions, because I did. Accidents do happen people - get over it, move on, and perhaps stop feeding the drama by focusing on the past, and instead, start helping with the present and future. |
[QUOTE=bryce87i;4346862]Bjh - Because not only did I make sure they were kept apart nearly the whole day, but I also made sure she always had a diaper on,(a) which I now understand isn't the best way to avoid pregnancy, but it certainly helped during every single other heat, until this one when the boy slipped out of the room at 4am when I got up for work, and paired up with her in the middle of the night after her diaper somehow had fallen off. So I'm tired of those who say it was no accident, or that I didn't take precautions, because I did. Accidents do happen people - (a) you now understand? What vet told you diapers are a good choice to prevent pregnancy? Did you even ask a vet? (b) every single other heat? Interesting how many did she have before the mistake mating? (c) a boy slipping out of a room seems to indicate that he was not in a crate, and probably not the female. How then did you protect the two from mating? If both were out of crates, how pray tell did you expect to protect them from mating? (d) Your precautions were obviously in-adequate and any repro vet or good breeder if you had asked should have told you how to keep this female safe from mating. As I have said yet twice before on this thread. Accidents are like hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, heart attacks et al, truly those events we can't pre -plan for that may interfere with our ability to keep our dogs safe from mating. MOst everything else is the "breeders" fault, and you are the breeder here. You had two intact dogs. You had the obligation to understand fully how to safeguard your female from mating. Furthermore your vet should have schooled you in this, once he/she realized you decided to keep your female intact. So yes this breeding was no ACCIDENT. It was your failure to plan to safeguard your female most especially because you had a full male in your home. You might like to think it was an accident, but if you fail to find out all you can, you fail to plan how to safeguard your female based on best education, then you PLAN to FAIL. Just admit you were a dunce and made a mistake! |
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