Loosing puppies
 

Honest answers please...
I would like to know how many breeders have lost puppies? I really wanted to be a breeder. My husband and I talked about it for years before we decided to move to an area that would allow people to have more than 3 animals. We had a kennel built with an outside covered area for the comfort of our yorkies. It is real nice. the inside is all heated. The yorkies go out side when it's nice and also have access to a fully fenced play area in the grass. We have never skimped on our yorkies. We take them to the vet for even a broken nail.
We have had a mentor for at least 5 years and I have read books on breeding as well as watched you tube on how to do tail docking, dew claws, really you tube is great.
I learned how to tube feed for my little runt.
I am so upset though I slowly introduced my little runt to another nursing mama that had to puppies, one of which died earlier in the week (see earlier post). My little runt wasn't gaining much weight so I tried to see if the other mama would nurse her. The first few times she acted scared so I would try again in a few days. On the third time my little runt was able to nurse on her. I was so beyond happy. I watched them for a long time making sure all was going well. She took the little runt and treated it like her own. Then when I checked on them yesterday morning she picked up the runt in her mouth and it was dead.I feel so bad for my little puppy. I was so in love with her. I have no idea why she died. She was fine a couple hours earlier when mu husband checked on her. So to make a long post a little shorter..is it normal to loose puppies when you breed? It's not like we havn't done everything to make sure we have healthy breeding stock and we also have spent thousands of dollars trying to save a puppy. We are just wanting to know do we go forward with our dream or if it just isn't meant to be.Like I said truthful answers please. BTW we are still fairly new to this. We have had only 5 breedings in the last 4 years. We have 5 females and 2 studs..one of which is not old enough to use..he has alot of champion blood lines and was excited to get him but now I don't know what to do.

I am sorry your lost your little runt. Unfortunately things like that do happen occasionally. I have been breeding yorkies for 16 years and over the years I have lost some puppies. Just about everyone I know that raises yorkies has lost puppies on occasion. No matter how careful a breeder can try to be there are many things that can happen that our beyond our control. Breeding yorkies is a huge responsibility and it can be very rewarding but it can also be very heartbreaking.

It sounds like you have a separate building for your yorkies if you breed and that is just not good. Yorkies are the kind of dogs that have to be around people. Mine actually gets sick if she does not spend enough human time. Also the moms need to be watched very very well when they are going to whelp because one thing could go wrong and the female could die or the puppies could die or both. Puppies should also be raised around people so they know people and are not afraid of them. An outbuilding is just not right for this kind of dog or any probably. To make sure your able to offer individual attention to each litter you really don't want to have more then one due at the same time. I personally would never ever buy from a breeder who did not raise the puppies in the house as well as the parents. Breeding is a lot of work you can't breed the female every heat, you can't breed a female under 5 pounds, you need to do genetic and health testing on the dogs you want to breed, you need to know the lines you are breeding to make sure there is no Luxating Patella or other problems in them, you have to be prepared to really not make any money and maybe even lose money, be prepared for emergency c-sections, care for mom and pups, keep the pups until 12 weeks, dock the tails, only breed dogs that fit the standard, know any signs that could mean your female needs vet help, I hear stud dogs mark every where, you need to have a mentor who has done this before, make sure you have a good health guarantee, you need to make sure you are using the AKC, you should also look at the yorkie parent club which is The Yorkshire Terrier Club of America and be following all there rules and you might lose pups but you also have to remember you might lose the mother too. Pregnancy has its risks with humans and animals.

Honest answers only
 

Yes we have a very nice out building....NO they don't live in it!!! They live in our home, sleep in our bedroom. Whelp on our bed in a whelping box. We have spent thousands of dollars on genetic testing, Dna, c-sections, vet bills.My yorkies are part of our family...raised in our home, they play inside and outside. The kennel is for there safety.A place for them to go get fresh air and if we are out for the day they can be in the kennel and safe. if they are outside playing we have to be there with them,we have birds of pray that could snatch up a yorkie..that's why we built the kennel.
Why do you people always asume other breeders are in it for the money and don't have a clue what they are doing?? I don't make any money...the kennel alone was $30,000. So I'm pretty dang sure I won't ever get that back.I love the breed and that's why I wanted to be a breeder, and do it right.
Please I know what it cost...Not making money on breeding. I have put a ton of my time learning about breeding, have a mentor,totally changed my life to do this..so don't judge me and think I'm in it for the money...it's always so nagitive...what about someone answering the question that I ask.
I'm so heart broken over loosing two puppies, you have no idea...

I am very sorry for the loss of your pup and I am very sorry you thought I was judging you because I was not. The majority of people who breed don't do the right things so I think it's awesome you do. It sounded like you just wanted to start breeding and hadn't started already.

I am not a breeder but wanted to say I am so sorry for your loss. When I was a child my dad was a breeder of larger dogs and it was not unusual for a mama to kill one if it was not hers. He quit trying to get them to adopt puppies not their own because of this. I hope things go better for you with the rest of your litter I know it must be heartbreaking to lose them.

I just attended a webinar on "Caring for the Puppies"....which was #4 in a 4 part series about Managing your Breeding Program, Managing your Brood Bitch, Managing Your Stud, and lastly, Caring for the Puppies. Dr Marti Greer is a wonderful reproductive vet with much credability and experience..."expert in the field" would not be too strong a term.
She stresses that it is NOT normal or to be expected or accepted to loose puppies. Puppies are lost the majority of the time because there was something that was not addressed by the breeder. ALL deceased puppies should be autopsied....you have to know WHY your baby did not survive. If the tapes are offered for this webinar, I would strongly advise you to purchase them if this is a path you are going to take. Bringing puppies into the world should demand an enormous amount of research of both parents, in order to avoid genetic issues....one can always jump up and bite you in the butt, but you must do all you can to be knowledgable about your pedigrees and lines. You must be able to resusitate a puppy without hesitation, with confidence and determination. Any interference you have to provide, in order to help that baby survive, you must do. Immediate response to situations that you are closely monitoring, will keep you from finding yourself playing catch up, trying to jerk that baby from the jaws of death....you act immediately, go straight to the problem, address the problem, and continue to monitor the results. Time can not be spent or wasted, trying to let momma or a surrogate think about if they may want to take care of this sick baby.....YOU step in and do whatever is necessary to solve the problem, IMMEDIATELY and quickly. This requires MUCH dedication and devotion and a committment to spend whatever time is needed to help that baby fight for its life. There are things as a breeder you can do that PREVENT issues...like not allowing mom to cut her puppys cord....that avoids the possibility of mom disemboweling the baby by chewing and pulling on the cord....YOU tie and cut the cord and do the cord care twice a day...lots of babies die from massive sepsis due to poor cord care....this MUST BE DONE WITH TINCTURE OF IODINE!!...not soap and water, alcohol, hand sanitizer, betadine, surgical soap,etc.... but done correctly, bacteria enter the open wound and set up massive infection in the peritoneal cavity. I could go on and on....this is NOT a cake walk. I will answer your question....I USED to loose puppies more frequently, then I learned to to prevent 98% of the losses, and it has not happened to me in over 6 years. I have NEVER found a baby dead in with mom...I am closely monitoring my babies and I pick up on subtle signs that indicate there may be an issue brewing, and I address that immediately. I never leave a sick puppy alone...I NEVER operate on a "wait and see" pace......I eat up vacation days, and when I have no vacation time left, they go to work in my bra.....I carry sick babies around in my bra. Our YT member, "Gemy" (Gail) also attends these webinars and she will post a link where you can buy tapes of the webinar, if it is offered to people that did not attend the class. If it is offered, it will be the best money you will spend this month.

Loosing puppies
 

I would love to be able to purchase the videos if they become available. I'm wondering is he talking through the whole thing or are there clips of actual whelpings of puppies in trouble that he teaches what to do to insure the health of the puppy and mom.I'm also unsure if every puppy should live. What about puppies that you keep alive and the financial cost to keep them alive..don't get me wrong I have spent over $3,500 on vet bills for a puppy that I paid $1,200 on. I had the puppy 2 days when I took it to the vet.because it was very ill.The breeder would not give me a refund. She said she would need an atopies report for a replacement puppy. The puppy survived and she finally decided to replace the puppy after we spent all the money we had. Is there a limit to how much money you spend on vet bills when is enough enough?
What do you do when you have already spent amost $5,000 on one puppy?? I don't think many would even do that, I'd really like to know.Most people don't have an unlimited suppy of money. Does that mean we shouldn't breed?I always make sure that I have money for a c-section and some for whatever comes up but my funds are limited..

The tapes are not videos, they are recordings of the webinar remote class. As far as if every puppy should live, Dr.Greer's phylosophy is every baby deserves the chance to live. If the puppy has obvious deformaties, that are not going to allow that puppy to live, then she certainly does not believe in prolonging the inevietable....end the puppys suffering with euthanasia. But as a breeder, you have a moral and ethical responsibility to do what you can to save the puppy. The breeder you bought that sick puppy from, that wanted an autopsy to prove what was responsible for the death of the puppy, is not unreasonable. That is why you always need to do autopsies on dead puppies so you KNOW why that baby died...was it genetics? was it infection? was it malformation? I had a litter of 6 puppies come down with parvo, brought into my house on their clothes/shoes by people, out "looking at puppies".......Saving that litter, and all the associated expenses of shutting down breeding for almost 2 years, having my entire home and property treated with antivirals....cost me well over $35,000.00....over $25,000.00 of that was in vet bills alone. We saved the puppies, except one. How much you are willing to spend to save a puppy is a moral and ethical decision only YOU can answer. There are breeders that will toss a baby that is not progressing right on target, because they are working on a limited budget and do not have the money, time or desire to spend trying to save sick puppies. If I loose a baby, that baby could NOT have survived under any circumstances. I have the medical knowledge and the equipment necessary to do everything that can be done to keep that puppy alive. My efforts would stop if it becomes evident there are malformations or deformaties that can not be surmounted. But just because a puppy is tiny, or weaker than the rest of the litter, or not strong enough to nurse....all those issues are fixable with making sure the baby is fed.....and I step in immediately and feed that baby. As a breeder, that is the very loeast you can do for that puppy.....feed the baby, and if it can not absorm nutrients, then perhaps you can not do anything else for that baby, but you must at least feed a struggling baby....if that is all that is wrong with the puppy, it is savable and you need to be doing that. You must know how to tube feed a puppy, and you must do it. That is such a simple thing to do and you can save weak babies with effort and time and attention....puppies do not swallow the tube, you learn how to gently insert the tube and you feed the baby.....YOU control the situation, not the 1 oz puppy! I personally would NOT be doing this if I was not able to provide medical care to sick puppies. I do not make money doing this....I MAY break even, because I bank every cent made off a puppy, to cover the possible cost of sick puppies and my business supplies/expenses. This is NOTHING but a labor of love and the desire to produce healthy, beautiful, correct to breed standard, babies. You MUST have healthy, correct breeding stock....the very best you can get your hands on. That ensures your babies have at least a 50/50 chance of being healthy, genetically. But you have to know pedigrees so you know whuich ones have predispositions to certain issues. THIS is just a start....

It sounds like you have done many of the right things prior to breeding..

These questions you ask are so heartfelt - and can truly only be decided by you. When is enough enough What is not talked about enough, is the financial kitty one needs prior to going into breeding - and how to financially plan for the future. It is not just about losing a puppy, or the medical bills when in your home, but what happens if one of your puppies you place gets deathly ill... What is your health guarantee - what does it state - and also what is your moral and ethical obligation to support the owners of this puppy beyond what-ever the guarantee states. Again answers only you and your husband can come to.

I agree with YorkieMom1 - everything she said to you. It is very true. If you can, have a necropsy done on that puppy.

Breeders do lose puppies - not all the time but it does happen.

I will post under the breeders section when the links are available for the webinars from Dr Greer.

I do highly encourage on-going education - we can never know too much!

Also beyond your mentor is their a breeders group you could belong to

That also is very helpful to share ideas information and knowledge.

I think that at best, if you continue to do all the right things in the way of breeding, the best you can hope for financially, is to break-even (not including of course the capital cost of your building).

One day I hope to break even;)

[QUOTE=gemy;4195652]It sounds like you have done many of the right things prior to breeding..

These questions you ask are so heartfelt - and can truly only be decided by you. When is enough enough What is not talked about enough, is the financial kitty one needs prior to going into breeding - and how to financially plan for the future. It is not just about losing a puppy, or the medical bills when in your home, but what happens if one of your puppies you place gets deathly ill... What is your health guarantee - what does it state - and also what is your moral and ethical obligation to support the owners of this puppy beyond what-ever the guarantee states. Again answers only you and your husband can come to.

I agree with YorkieMom1 - everything she said to you. It is very true. If you can, have a necropsy done on that puppy.

Breeders do lose puppies - not all the time but it does happen.

I will post under the breeders section when the links are available for the webinars from Dr Greer.

I do highly encourage on-going education - we can never know too much!

Also beyond your mentor is their a breeders group you could belong to

That also is very helpful to share ideas information and knowledge.

I think that at best, if you continue to do all the right things in the way of breeding, the best you can hope for financially, is to break-even (not including of course the capital cost of your building).

One day I hope to break even;)[/QUOTE]
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I have pm'd you......

Auntielaurie, what does your mentor say about it?

Loosing puppies
 

My mentor ask me to take the puppy to the vet and have her show me how to tube feed the puppy. Which I did. It was a little scary at first but I got the hang on it and for the most part the puppy did great. The last couple of days was kinda different. She mostly refused the tube feedings, wouldn't swollow the tube. So I talked to my mentor about letting my other mama try to feed her. She advised me to keep a close watch on them. At first Ivy acted scared of the puppy, I tried over a two day period and Ivy accepted her. Let her nurse and acted very loving towards her. I would watch them through out the next day. Everything looked great.
I have been too sad to talk to anyone in person so unless she has looked on fb she doesn't know the puppy died..this has been really hard on me.

I know you did all that you could. Over the years I have switched pups around between moms, say if I had a female that had a really big litter and one that only had one or two puppies. My moms have always readily accepted the other moms pups. I doubt seriously that your yorkie intentionally killed the puppy. It sounds like the pup had other problems and just was not nursing well enough to sustain itself.

You have been through the ringer haven't you. Are you going to take the body to the vet? That seems like it is the only solution.

Loosing puppies
 

The puppy has been buried.
I don't think I will continue breeding. I need to think long and hard about it. We may have a yorkie pregnant right now, it's to early to tell..I just don't know if I can go through all this again..I can't seem to pull myself out of a deep depression over my loss.
I live in a small town, don't drive much, have no friends to talk to about my real feelings..I had my yorkies and my that brought me joy.Now that seems like I have failed the only good thing in my life...something to look forward to..the pitter patter of little feet...anyways thanks's for the help and answering my questions without judgement!!

Loosing Puppies
 

At some point we all loose puppies if we continue breeding. I can understand your not thinking you want to breed again. It is not for the faint of heart. I think you did all you could for the little one and that is going to happen. In spite of everything you do, you will not be able to save all of them and you shouldnt expect to. Sometimes there are reasons for loosing them that we cannot see. At that age there could have been a lot of problems internally and you wouldnt know it. We all just have to perfect our techniques and continue learning. I actually lost an entire litter that was born too early.
That happens too. One litter was born too early because Mom decided to eat
a piece of vinyl tablecloth off the picnic table and we didnt know it until the pups were born and the vet did surgery to remove the wad of vinyl. Also, lost an entire litter of "water puppies". That was my first experience with water puppies even though at that time I had bred for years. You will continue to learn if you breed long enough. Take care and just know that you did your best. Even vets have a hard time saving one this young.

I've had a lot of success with feeding Royal Canin HT42 breeding formula.

:thumbdown
Excuse me!!!!! You can throw up your hands, succomb to what is your very first defeat, and quit....but you cant do that NOW!!! You just said you may have another pregnant yorkie....you put that girl in that position, now you have to see it thru! You get something to take notes on and get ready for me to contact you this weekend....breeding is NOT for the easily discouraged, defeatists, so if you can not reach down deep into your soul and your psyche, and pull out a breeder, then you are right....you need to stop before you waste any more time, or money, chasing something you said was "a life dream, and the only thing you were good at"......You lost a puppy....we learn from what we screw up.....maybe you did not screw up, we will never know because no autopsy was done....NO MORE GUESSING ABOUT WHAT YOU DO OR WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR DOGS.......that is the FIRST thing you have to correct....from here on out, you will have any puppies that you loose, autopsied....you MUST know what went wrong so if possible you can correct it and not go there again! You can NOT keep making the same mistakes over and over and expect a different outcome....CHANGE THE METHOD!!! GET DIFFERENT RESULTS!!! When we talk this weekend, you need to tell me what dogs you have...lines and pedigrees....how did you come about these dogs. You have to start with solid, healthy, CORRECT breeding stock...this is your foundation and it can NOT be weak or wobbly. We need to discuss this "possibly pregnant yorkie"....as a breeder, you must know exactly when two dogs breed, and you get ultra sounds at 3 weeks to verify pregnancy. At day 58, you get xrays...this determines how many you have and their position.....THIS IS essential THAT YOU DO THIS....NO EYEBALLING AND SECOND GUESSING...YOU DO IT RIGHT, YOU know EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE FACING, SO YOU CAN DEAL WITH IT.......you are assimilating information that you need to PREVENT disasters from happening....you measure heads and make sure they will pass thru the pelvic ring, and you know when she has 4 babies, there are no more hung up in there....NO GUESSING, JUST FACTS!!....
You have to keep any more dogs from breeding, but you may have one pregnant now, so NO! you will NOT throw up your hands and walk off from your responsibility to that little lady....after she has her litter, and the babies are sold, you can fold up like a wet rag and give up on "a life long dream", because this takes more intestinal fortitude than YOU think you have...but you will see this next litter thru to the end. I will call you this weekend,,,9pm my time will be 7pm your time....you be ready to take notes..... you will get this done and done right....for that lady's sake that may be carrying babies for you. You grieve for that lost baby, for all the lost babies....and you fix what went wrong so it does not happen again, GOD WILLING.....

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
This is the NEXT thing you are going to start doing....you need to be sure your breeding stock is conditioned just like they are athletes....breeding is hard on them and they have to be in tip top shape or they can NOT produce healthy, well developed puppies....and THIS is step one in the nutrition aspect!

I was trying to make yoiu realize you can not give up with breeding while you have a pregnant female ...that is what YOU said you wanted to do, NOt my idea!....I was going to help you get your bearings and try to work thru this depression you have slid into....I succeeded in that you flared up and got fire in your belly, but you dont see that what I said did stir you up and get you out of the doldrums and help you turn your program into a success. Stay angry with me if that is what it takes to get you out of the place you are in over loosing that puppy. Good luck with whatever you decide you want to do.

Loosing puppies
 

Yorkie mom.....:mad:Give me a break!! Giving up on breeding while I might have one pregnant ..to anyone else that would mean to not go forward with additional breedings. Not forget about the one that might be pregnant...words seem to really get twisted around to make people look bad...thank you because you know I didn't feel quite bad enough.

Taking the puppy in and having a vet tell you why it died might help because it may have been something you had no control of.

yorkie lady
 

BTW yorkie lady I never said breeding was the only thing I was good at. I'm very good at a lot of things.I put everything I have into everything I do..I don't skimp on anything. That's not who I'am. Don't put your word in my mouth.
Perhaps I'am taking the lost of this puppy harder than most. I spent the last month with her..dedicating every minute to making sure she was ok. It was the first time I bottle fed, tube feed and cleaned her to make her go potty.I slept beside her making sure she was always warm, I made sure she knew she was loved.Took her to the vet when I needed help..it wasn't enough and I have to live with that...learn for it, if I decide to continue breeding.
I'm quite sure you are very good at breeding..but way to fast to assume the worst about others...jmo.
Like I said before I was hesitant about asking anything about breeding and I was so right...never again...
Yes loosing her was terribly hard. I hope I can move on..time will tell.

It must be devastating to lose 2 puppies so close together just as you are trying to get started in breeding. I can understand how that would make you question whether or not to continue breeding.

It is an emotional, painful time, and I hope your mentor will help you through this.

This is another reason I could never be a breeder. It may also make others think twice about doing it.

You find someone that you can trust, someone that you believe you can listen to without feeling like you are being attacked....start with one person, but you can not possibly build a successful breeding program learning from only one person....you have to incorporate as many ideas from as many different people and sources as you possibly can...... hopefully, you can work thru this belief that asking for help in breeding or any area where you are trying to learn the skills necessary to be successful, is not acceptable to you and/or cause you hesitation because you perceive critical evaluation as an attack....hopefully you will work thru that and see that you can learn from EVERY interaction anyone has with you, whether you like the method or not, if you allow it. To "never again" ask for help or information in breeding, when you are JUST getting started, is to shut yourself completely off from a lifetime of wonderful learning opportunities from people that have a wealth of knowledge that will only make YOU a better breeder. As long as people deal with you honestly, and do not resort to calling you names, absorb what they tell you, and when you learn more skills, you can leave behind what you dont think fits into your program or your way of conducting your business. Your mind at this point should be like a sponge, learning everything you possibly can learn. We ALL continue to learn and weigh information and incorporate what we hear and are told about breeding, into what we think is best for each of us....and that goes for ALL breeders, regardless of how long you have been doing this....when the day comes that you think you will not ever seek to learn from anyone else that is knowledgable in this area, is the day your program begins to fail. NONE of us "know it all", and if you are new to this, you are hurting no one but yourself and your program by "never again" asking for help or advice. You lost a baby...we have all lost a baby....we have all worked 24/7 to keep a baby alive, for days on end, and lost the baby in spite of everything we did......grieve and get over it. Honer the baby by learning from your loss...what happened to cause its death, what could you have done differently, what is it going to change what you do in the future with future litters...THAT is how you honor that dead baby. THAT is what breeders do.......

You know, I think she was just very sad and needed to vent. You know us.. we all cinch up our breeders pants and go on, learn, and prevent.
I hope she's not discouraged from coming back.
Yorkiemom I can feel your passion! You're right, we never quit learning, but she needs to be here for one of her avenues for learning, not mad and click off. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes have to take a break from here, and you brave it out. There are many posts you answer that I just cannot face, and we all appreciate what you've done to help. But this lady didn't sound like the typical "My dog bred by accident 2 times.. 2 different days", now what do I do?
Taylor, are you a breeder? You were judging her. You jumped all over her about breeding, and didn't help answer her question at all. She already is a breeder, she was asking about losing a puppy.
Did you know that AKC actually prefers a building. Home breeders have a bigger chance of an oops breeding, or death from a dog fight while unattended. What do you think most "home" breeders do for containment? A "Yorkie Room" with cage after cage, and sometimes stacked cages. Now, how is that better than a building with no wire flooring, and access to outside? I've currently got 7 Yorkies fighting for my lap, and my bed was too full of Yorkies last night to sleep, but I also have a building for the safety of young babies and breeding containment, with access to outside, heat, A/C, toys, amazing flooring, beds, and lots of room, not wire crates of some home breeders. I have cameras on every one, so that I can see and hear what's going on at all times.
All you've ever seen is the videos of mills that use wire flooring, dirty, matted dogs, living in disgusting conditions. It is deplorable how they treat those precious babies! However.. not all buildings are like that.
ALL Breeders need containment of some sort, and it's not always that black and white. We all need to do our homework, but maybe not be so opinionated.

Deb i have waited for this post a very long time now, I have seen so many breeders bashed for asking a question, when some doing most of the talking didn't have a clue as to what it takes to whelp a litter, and did not know diddly squat about the person that was being criticized, there were so many knowledgeable breeders here that have left...I feel lucky to have known a few inc. you

Loosing puppies
 

Just a quick thank you to Deb, and some others that didn't judge me. I'm sorry yorkie mom but you just seemed like you were yelling at me and treating me like crap.Like I was a terrible person because I didn't know enough to save the puppies life.I did my best..I don't believe that you can be a breeder and not lose a puppy from time to time. Yes I need to learn more. I have spent so much time on you tube and have learned a lot. I also have several books on breeding, I have a mentor, I go in with the vet and watch what she does when my puppy was breach.My very first puppy I helped deliver was breach and I was able to get it out alive..very scared at the time. I cut the cords so mama won't chew down to far.I dock tails, do the dew claws, give shots,wormings.I do a lot of things that I never new I would have to do.I don't just put my yorkies in a crate and watch them pump out puppies..I'm trying to do it right.We have had some beautiful puppies.
Please go to facebook and type in YORKIES IN THE MEADOWS, and see for yourself. I have lots of pictures of my yorkies...

I agree with you Deb about the buildings. When we got our poms years ago they were from a show breeder and she had just such a kennel as you describe. I was always amazed that there was never even a dog smell inside it was always so clean. Her dogs like yours were loved pets but there is always the saftey factor.