Shadow Creek Kennels

[Kathryn_V]

Not that price is an issue, but do any of you know what this test runs?

I was under the impression that if you have more than 3 Dams, you HAD to be licensed with the USDA?? I swear that is what I read on the USDA website, which is why I thought it was a good thing... I figured that with the yearly inspections and the willingness of the breeder to register with the USDA, that they were responsable...

I will absolutly have this test performed... I have a vet apt scheduled for the 11th of Jan... I would think that I should have her tested at my vet?? Yep, the day after I bring her home, its a 11:30 am, well within 24 hours of bringing her home.

I did have her take extra pictures of "Mica" or Pixie as I call her... She was happy to and sent them right out, Pam has been very helpfull so far. I am hoping that this case listed in the post above is a one time thing and that the animals involved have been removed from her breeding program... I have printed out the pedigrees... I will want to compare them with my girls. ugh!

I have a 400 deposit on her and hate the thought of loosing it... not to mention the plane ticket I have purchaced... I really want to think that I am doing the right thing here... as for her price... breeders here in California with sick looking dogs were asking 2500 to 4000 for pups that looked very ill...

I really did have a good feeling about Pam... I hope I am right.

Any other advice is much appreciated...

[shelbysmom]

oh boy. there are so many red flags here.

Will you get a healthy puppy from this breeder?

maybe.
and health guarantees don't mean anything. once you fly this baby home and take her to the vet are you going to turn around and take her back? The article posted about Liver Shunt was written by a VERY reputable breeder and Yorkie enthusiast, an opinion I would take seriously. (did you note that 2 dogs from different parents from that kennel both had liver shunt...not a one time thing)

Are you contributing to a good breeding program by buying this puppy?

24 females? living and birthing in kennels?

$400. is a lot of money but .....

[Kathryn_V]

Ok... I wrote to the breeder asking about the link... I expressed my concerns and asked about testing before I fly out to pick her up. I will follow up with a call in the morning as it is almost midnight here and even later there. I really am beside myself now... I was so very excited about her homecoming, but now I am just sick over it. Should I be looking for another breeder? It took me months of looking to find her.

I really don't think I will be able to sleep tonight. I really felt like I found a good person with a good gaurantee and her dogs looked very well kept. Short of flying across the country to visit every breeder I pull up on a search.... ugh... I am at a loss...

I guess in hind sight I could have visited shows and met breeders that way, but would that have guaranteed me a healthy dog? I don't know, maybe, maybe not... there are so many variables.

I really feel like I'm screwed no matter what now... I almost wish I had not opened this can of worms here.. While I am glad to have the info.... Will you all look at me as supporting a bad breeding program if I continue with the purchace? I don't know that I want that title.

I feel like I am doing everything wrong here.. I researched, I called, I visited locally, and saw a sad state of affairs, I started looking elsewhere, I found a licenced kennel in good standings, I am not shipping, I'm flying out, I have her first vet visit set up, I have every thing in place, xpen, kennel, first aid kit, you name it and she has it waiting for her... And I talked with so many breeders... most were so rude and money hungry... It was very discouraging. I felt like I scored when I called Pam. Her dogs looked great! The contract I signed was well written she was open to any and all questions. I asked for pictures, and she took them, I called and she was in the middle of baths and had to call back. Everything added up.

So what? I just scratch the deposit, scratch the plane ticket and do what? Return the hundreds of dollars in accessories that I have here?

Sorry everyone, but I am a great person who cares very much about the decision that I am making and I feel like some of you are looking at this as a bad judgement on my part...

I really hope that my conversation goes well with her tommorow.

[royalpuppies]

WOAH!!

[royalpuppies]

Sorry about my last post... I didn't know what you meant (tired) after reading about 10 time I finally understand.... Listen no one will be mad at you if you purchase from this breeder... No one knows if this breeder is good or not... as no one has proof... Don't punish the breeder because she ""might"" not be good.. Livershunt is a problem many breeders have (fortunately for me not yet) if she did have liver shunt and admits it and stopped breeding the sire and dam then she has done what she is supposed to do! Talk to her about it... She should understand I would!

[ttreatsyorkies]

Someone asked in their post if Hip Dysplasia can occur in young dogs. It can, it is more common in older dogs; but unfortunetly more pups seem to be appearing with it. LP can be genetic and it can be enviromental. Most of the time a vet will find LP on a pup that is over 1 year of age. A pup can get LP because they dont have strong ligament support, which means when they need to build thier little muscles up. A pup can get LP from jumping off things that are to high and jumping off things that are to high to often. So it really is hard as a breeder to say that Lp wont occur, because they trully wont know. Just make sure that both parents are clear of this flaw. Once you have the Bile test done, and if it comes out good then you will be more releaved. You are going to great lengths in getting your baby, trust you instinct. The USDA starndards I feel are more harsh, but they also can be good. My in-laws have 3 boys they purchased from a large Kennel owner and their boys are all great and healthy. You are getting a 1 year guarantee, and try to talk to her about the Bile test being done prior to you getting Pixie. Ask her if she would mind you speaking with the vet about that particular pup over the phone. Any good breeder wont mind you being cautious; they should be excited at knowing one of thier babies is going to a great home. Don't throw in the towel on your baby yet just make sure you have a guarantee that if the Bile test is bad you can have another pup or a refund. I would also place in the contract for yourself that since it is evident there is a history of Liver shunts in the owners past that they pay for the expense of transfering back the pup if it does have the problem. Lets just hope when you talk to her she is willing to have the test done for you and she is nice about it all. Good luck.

[shelbysmom]

why was this thread moved? is it because people were posting second hand information? i am just curious b/c it seems like this is the type of conversation that needs to be available to people searching for a pup.


Original poster has had experience with this breeder and started post expressing her experience? What changed so that this can't be under Breeder Review?

Am I crazy or was this moved?

[Kathryn_V]

Thank you ttreatsyorkies.

And no, your not crazy Shelbysmom, it was moved... Admin thought it belonged here?

I am going to be chatting with Pam today... i am sick about it... I did not sleep last night, I tossed and turned.. I just pray that everything is on the up and up.

[Lucky's Mom]

I think you should still go out there & look at the pups & the facilities & then go w/ your gut. Instead of just "wasting" the $400 & giving up, at least go out there & look since you've already paid for it. I'm sure you'll know what to do when you get there. Good luck to you & keep us posted!

[centralnewyorki]

My concern about the situation isn't whether or not you'll be supporting a bad breeder. I would be concerned about having the puppy brought into your home and finding something wrong with her. Then, do you return the dog that you've already bonded with or keep a puppy you know will have problems? I realize that you've spent quite a bit of money on a deposit and plane ticket, but surgeries and numerous trips to the vet are going to be far more costly than they money you've already spent. If you do find something is not right with this breeder- walk away. It will be a good lesson learned a VERY hard way, but you will be better off for it. You can keep everything you've already bought for your future puppy, and begin to look for a more credible breeder. We actually have quite a few right here on YT. Don't get this pup just because you've looked for a long time and are desperate for your pup. Beleive me, I understand the feeling- I searched more than 9 months for my Olivia! If you find out bad information about this breeder, save your heart and your bank account a lot of damage and walk away from this puppy. Good luck in whatever you chose to do.

[GurleyGirl]

It's nice that you are seeking opinions/advice from YT members.... please remember that most people on these forums are just yorkie owners that may have a few years of experience with yorkies (myself included). Please do not take anything you read here as gospel. There are good and bad breeders all over... with home raised puppies and kennel raised puppies.

Wishing you the best with your new baby! Keep us posted and pictures please.... when you get her!!

[topknot]

If her pups are AKC registered - you can contact AKC and they can let you know if any compliants have been filed with them and how many pups she registers in a year. My friend did this when looking and was very helpful to her. Just a thought to help you.
T.

[shelbysmom]

Originally Posted by Kathryn_V

Thank you ttreatsyorkies.

And no, your not crazy Shelbysmom, it was moved... Admin thought it belonged here?

I am going to be chatting with Pam today... i am sick about it... I did not sleep last night, I tossed and turned.. I just pray that everything is on the up and up.

Glad to hear I am not crazy and sorry to hear you are struggling so. No one is going to be angry if you go and get this pup and we will be here to welcome her if you feel this is the Pixie for you. I understand a little about how you feel...I live in California and it can be a tough place to find a pup. I even had a way overpriced pup in my lap and was calling it Shelby when the breeder raised the price on me. I walked but it was one of the hardest things I have ever done. It wasn't about the extra money...it was she showed me how unethical she was.

I left, I cried, I didn't sleep and I had a 4 day migraine.

Take a warm bath, relax and try to pick yourself up from this emotional roller coaster. You don't have to decide today right? The money is important but YOU are more important and so is your Pixie...where ever she might be?

[Kathryn_V]

I am hoping that she no longer uses these dogs in her program. I am hoping that it was a lesson learned for her and that she is better for it. I am hoping that it is not a problem as of date. I don't want to support a bad program, but does one mark on your record make you bad? Have all great breeders never had a bad mark? Had something bad pop up in their breeding program? Then take steps to improve and recover?

Wait my phone is ringing...... It’s Pam!


Ok.... I really feel awesome right now!!!! I just spent over an hour on the phone with Pam. I am so pleased!!!

Ok... I tried sending the email to her last night.. I checked mine this morning and saw that it was returned as undeliverable... So I resent it... within 30 minutes she called me! What a quick response!

She was wonderful, she explained the entire situations to me from the first time she visited with the folks who bought the two pups in question up to the very end of it all... there are many details that were left out of that web page on Liver Shunt.... I am not going to go into everything here, as I don't feel it my place to... And I really don't want to fire up any debates about it.. But I will say this.

Pam tested all four of the dogs involved in the breeding of the two pups. Three tested fine and one... The father of Willis tested high. She fixed him right away and removed him from her breeding program. The only sibling of Willis, a female, was contacted and to this day is in perfect health.

Pam was devastated by the event! She did refund the 1500 for Willis to be put towards his sugary, but only after begging the owners to return him to her as he was being held back as a pet for Pam when the couple and her husband had talked her into letting him go to this couple... It was months later that the couple came to her with the request for a refund on the second dog, claming that it too had Liver shunt! Pam was floored! After having all of them tested and the dam and sire of the second dog testing out ok, she felt like she was being taken for a ride. She suffered months of harassment and threats as a result of this. She has never had this issue in her breeding program and to this day has not had the issue again. It was a very unfortunate situation and she did everything she could to correct it. She was going to shut down after the whole thing; it was that traumatic for her.. But her vet convinced her that she was not in the wrong, that bad things happen and as long as she took every step to insure that it was corrected, she would be fine.

As for USDA.... She likes being licensed with them, they come out and inspect, so does the state and AKC... she has never had a violation! She is proud of that! Her pups are never sold to brokers... the USDA rep even told her that she did not need to keep up her Lic if she is not selling to auctions, brokers, or wholesale. Her kennel is climate controlled, and her dams whelp indoors with her... she has a room built off of her bedroom that houses the dams and the puppies while they are young, so she can be close. The USDA has never sited her for having her dogs in the main house. And she says that she has had plenty in when they show up...

Pam offered to refund my deposit... She applauded my concern and was very pleased when I turned her down, she is happy to know that her pup is going to a concerned and caring home.

I believe that Pam is a stand up gal, a good and responsible breeder, and I really do feel like she took the right steps to insure that this is not a problem in her program. She pinpointed the problem and eliminated it... the dog that tested high now lives with her brother as a pet.

There are so many details that we discussed that I am not going into here but the bottom line is..... Shadow Creek Kennels gets a from me. One bad mark does not define us... Or we would all have some serious explaning to do. non of us are perfect beings. It's easy to jump to conclusions... I did. But it takes an open mind to take the time to listen to both sides and decide for yourself. I think that her record speaks for its self, even with this pair of pups on it. I find no other reason to label her as a bad breeder or Puppy mill...

I really feel good about my decision; of course I will have a full blood work panel run on her as part of her new puppy visit with my Vet. He likes to establish a base line to compare to in case of illness. But I am confident that she will test out just fine.

Oh, and I have Chritmas pictures comming form Pam... I will post when I get them! I can't wait to see more of Pixie!

[Kathryn_V]

And by the way....

I just want to thank all of you for your help in all of this! Both the support and the criticism... It takes both views to see the whole picture.

Thank you to everyone who replied!