NEVER never bred a TINY

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

One was Ava'a breeder's vet and I spoke to him and his wife several times before I purchased Ava. Just so you know, Ava's breeder doesn't breed tiny females, but she sold her vet a tiny and he bred her. I will see if I can get ahold of her and get his contact info again.

Another one was a vet in Texas who bought from a well known breeder there and started a breeding program using a 4 lb yorkie. Just to reiterate again, in all of these instances the breeder has had the female analyzed and tested thoroughly, a smaller male is used and there are several generations spanning many years where only small dogs were produced to reduce the chance of a large puppy as much as possible.

Kathy~ Do you use a theriogenologist in your breeding program and what does he/she say about the cutoff size for the female yorkie and breeding?

Kathy~ Please refer to my last post. I reposted it above) What is your esteemed vet's name and phone number?

I have clearly stated time and time again that I consider breeding yorkie females to be too risky for my pets and would never do it. All I have been attempting to do is to find credible evidence as to what is the "acceptable size limit" if there is one among the "experts" and the reasons why they consider the limit to be what they say it to be. I have been pretty well convinced that any female under 4 lbs is not a good candidate for breeding.

The defintition of a tiny that I have heard most frequently is anything under 5 lbs, therefore the vets you have referred to seem to think that breeding tinies is okay as long as they are not under 4 lbs.

This is actually what I said was my opinion in my post on a thread yesterday...."As for breeding tiny females, after all I have learned recently, I think I would set the size limit at 4 lbs and that would only be if the dog was wide in the torso and was tested fit for pregnancy and was cared for throughout by a reproductive specialist, not just a general vet"http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...497#post318497

Villette~I didn't now I was "really being a pain about this" as I was not the one asking for names and phone numbers...it was wnalegria.

This thread did not change my mind because I would never breed a tiny and wouldn't advise anyone else to either, but I don't like to spread misinformation. I like to have reasons and know what they are...it helps people understand if you explain a logical rationale. If it is possible under some circumstances to breed females smaller than 5 lbs safely then to say breeding tinies is "cruel", "sick", bad, disreputable, only done by people who are in it for the money, will ALWAYS lead to a c-section or a ruptured uterus and the other horrible things that have been said about it are not true and we shouldn't continue the misinformation.

An analogy would be your assertion that all Pet Stores who sell puppies are BAD....when we know for a fact that is not true. Quality Canines in New York as well as many other small mom and pop stores around the country are reputable.

I think your statement would have more credibility with people in general if you said "All Pet Stores who get their puppies from puppymills are BAD".

Do you see my point? It is not that I think it is OKAY TO BREED TINIES or that I don't care about the poor little females, it's that I do not want to spread rumors and lose credibility when I cannot support it with credible evidence from experts with a valid rationale. I was withholding my opinion until I felt I had researched the matter fairly thoroughly and now i believe as your vet does...that it is probably too risky to the life of the mother and the puppies to breed a female yorkie under 4 lbs.

Most people on here had never heard of a canine theriogenolist until I discovered it in my research. The word was never used as far as I know on this forum before that. This is a learning process and I change my opinions as I learn more just as others do.

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I have been pretty well convinced that any female under 4 lbs is not a good candidate for breeding.

My only question is...why do you constantly defend the breeders that do breed their small bitches? You've done it time and time again here. You say that you don't condone it but yet if someone comes on here and says they breed for tinies, you defend them wholeheartedly. Sorry, but it makes NO sense to me!

[feminvstr]

Kim do you think Ava is a well bred, high quality, breed standard Yorkie?

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

My only question is...why do you constantly defend the breeders that do breed their small bitches? You've done it time and time again here. You say that you don't condone it but yet if someone comes on here and says they breed for tinies, you defend them wholeheartedly. Sorry, but it makes NO sense to me!

I would defend them just as I would defend you if you were wrongly attacked. You are a breeder and I don't see how you breed your baby but I try not to judge you negatively for it. Whether or not to breed, period, and then if you breed, what size is okay to breed, are basically opinions, there is no real hard and fast "rule". There are plenty of breeders on here and elsewhere who have had better luck with free whelping than a lot of the breeders on here who breed nothing under 5 lbs, so I am merely defending them from warrantless attacks simply for having a different opinion.

I certainly wpuldn't call them names and say they don't love their dogs or they are only in it for the money, any more than I would say that to you because you breed.

This is to all of the breeders on here who do not show, not just Kimberley: Here is the question I have never had the guts to ask but if you do not show, you breed for pets only and you lose money on every litter then why breed your precious girl?

[txshopper73]

Kim, here is a reply you made to yorksrule...who everyone knows breeds bitches under 4 lbs.

You should be very proud of your breeding program and your babies are adorable.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Kim do you think Ava is a well bred, high quality, breed standard Yorkie?

Not according to show standards but she is "perfect" to me and everything and more than I was looking for. Her breeder has a great reputation and has been breeding her "look" for over thirty years. There is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT BREEDER and Ava's was not but she cares for her dogs and she is a good breeder. She does not breed teeny tiny yorkies and sold me Ava becuase she was too small to breed.

Why do you ask?

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Kim, here is a reply you made to yorksrule...who everyone knows breeds bitches under 4 lbs.

You should be very proud of your breeding program and your babies are adorable.

Yes, and I meant every word...there is nothing inconsistent in that and what i am stating here to night. She should be proud and not listen to the people trying to tear her down. She cares about her babies and it is obvious. Reread my post #19 here.

She has every right to her opinion. I don't agree with you docking those little babies tails but I don't attack you personally for it and call you horrible names. I try to point out the most humane way to accomplish it since you feel you must.

[wnalegria]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I am not trying to pick on you here but just asking some questions in the hopes of figuring out this puzzle. You are indeed brave to tell your story and we are all learning a lot from every new experience we get to share vicariously like this. I respect what you do and know that you are probably learning as you go as well.

I would be getting a new vet too, especially if I was a breeder. I would only use a reproductive specialist who knows what they are doing. You do not sew up an incision w/o anesthesia!!! That is just cruel.

I would not trust your vet either if he assured you prior to breeding that she could easily deliver a standard sized newborn (5 oz) and it turned out he was wrong. There are ways to determine this is advance.

How many generations back did you verify the smallness of the yorkies from the lines of the female and the male? Breeders who seriously, responsibly, professionally, and consistently breeding for tinies (note I did not say "breeding tinies" but rather "breeding FOR tinies") hopefully use a reproductive specialist or at least a vet who is very experiencd and has a lot of breeders in their practice, they breed the size of the dogs down year after year until they KNOW for a fact that the chances of larger puppies or "throwbacks" are very very very small to avoid an increase in the risk of C-section. Because a male or a female is small does not mean that their puppies will be necessarily. You have to develop a program of smaller yorkies to reduce the risk and have more of a chance of getting small babies.

It is also not true that you HAVE TO line breed to do this. The breeders (some of whom are vets) I know who breed for tinies do not line breed.

Kim here is your quote" It is also not true that you have to line breed to do this. The breeders (some of whom are vets) I know who breed for tinies do not line breed. " This is your words not mine I simply ask who are these vets that breed for tinies. We would like to know more. I sure would. It would make an enlightening experience for breeders like myself who I guess after thirty years don't know sqaut. These breeder/vets that you are talking about can help me see the light of day. So once again who are they and where are they located. Maybe we could pay one of them to come online and explain this to us. It would be very rewarding.

If you do not line breed or inbreed how do you make a gene dominat to produce these small yorkies. This is a new one to me. I have to know more about how to do this- do I use a magic wand or pixie dust or is it just abracadabra.

The Vet that I use is the Janssen Vet Clinic in Sheridan Indiana 317-758-4865. Vets at the office show and raise large and small animals. I am not afraid to put up or shut up.

[cheryl000]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Yes, and I meant every word...there is nothing inconsistent in that and what i am stating here to night. She should be proud and not listen to the people trying to tear her down. She cares about her babies and it is obvious. Reread my post #19 here.

I don't think she cares about them that much. According to her old posts she has 6 females, she doesn't raise them underfoot, but wanted to put each one inside of a small run I believe that anyone who loves their yorkie wouldn't put such a tiny girl through that over and over again.

[cheryl000]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

Kim here is your quote" It is also not true that you have to line breed to do this. The breeders (some of whom are vets) I know who breed for tinies do not line breed. " This is your words not mine I simply ask who are these vets that breed for tinies. We would like to know more. I sure would. It would make an enlightening experience for breeders like myself who I guess after thirty years don't know sqaut. These breeder/vets that you are talking about can help me see the light of day. So once again who are they and where are they located. Maybe we could pay one of them to come online and explain this to us. It would be very rewarding.

If you do not line breed or inbreed how do you make a gene dominat to produce these small yorkies. This is a new one to me. I have to know more about how to do this- do I use a magic wand or pixie dust or is it just abracadabra.

The Vet that I use is the Janssen Vet Clinic in Sheridan Indiana 317-758-4865. Vets at the office show and raise large and small animals. I am not afraid to put up or shut up.

lol at pixie comment. Yeah, I remember learning about genetics in school. An animal can have recessive genes from way back. A small dog doesn't mean it will have small puppies, even generations unless it has (DD) dominate genes. It can have Dr which means that it can show the trait, but still have the ressesive trait.

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

If you do not line breed or inbreed how do you make a gene dominat to produce these small yorkies. This is a new one to me. I have to know more about how to do this- do I use a magic wand or pixie dust or is it just abracadabra.

I need some of the pixie dust too. Perhaps Kim is living in Peter Pan world!

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by cheryl000

I don't think she cares about them that much. According to her old posts she has 6 females, she doesn't raise them underfoot, but wanted to put each one inside of a small run I believe that anyone who loves their yorkie wouldn't put such a tiny girl through that over and over again.

Exactly...here are some of her other posts...

Originally Posted by Yorksrule

I don't have any that weigh only 3lbs, they are all over. Only one has had a c-section this year. She had 2 pups fine the 3rd was breech & stuck.

Originally Posted by Yorksrule

Hello Yorkie lovers. I have been lurking awhile, this is my first post. I have 6 little females (all under 5 lbs) & 1 male 2&1/2 lbs. I need information on housing. Am considering a building with runs. What size runs should I have? Is a 2ft X 10ft enough? I plan on only 1 dog per run. What about one of these ready made Kennels, ie Whorton or Hunt with runs added. Thanks,
The Yorkie Place

you don't have runs in your house...they're OUTSIDE! I don't care if there is a building involved. What kind of one on one attention do they get? How often do they get loved on?????

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

If you do not line breed or inbreed how do you make a gene dominant to produce these small yorkies. This is a new one to me. I have to know more about how to do this- do I use a magic wand or pixie dust or is it just abracadabra.

Pass some of that magic to me! I sure could use some!

[Carters Mom]

Originally Posted by feminvstr

I need some of the pixie dust too. Perhaps Kim is living in Peter Pan world!

My older sister and mom are going to Disney World next week. I'll see if they can get some pixie dust from Tink when they see her.

If she is all out, I'll see if I can get some from our Disney Cruise at the end of February. Between Michelle, Courtney and I, one of us should be able to convince Tink to share a little with us to send to our yorkie breeder friends!

[wnalegria]

I have seen the light- I am going to a magic store and this is what I am going to give to all of my friends here on YT magic wands. I will see if I can get Harry Potter to come and explain how to use them. If I am real lucky maybe I can find a genie in a bottle. Only three wishes with that one. HMMM I know what the first one would be. But then things could get boring around here.