The Biewer Yorkshire
 

Questions need to be asked and answered by the Biewer Yorkshire a la pom pon clubs and the Biewer Terrier Club.
I welcome all comments.
Why were these tri puppies from standard colored yorkies registered as Yorkshire Terriers with KFT/ VDH
These dogs were registered in KFT/VDH
Schneeflöckchen von Friedheck, VDH/KFT 19362, geb. 20.01.1984
Diavoletto Bianco von Friedheck, VDH/KFT 20173
Grand Pom Pon von Friedheck, VDH/KFT 20366, geb. 27.08.1984
Schneeanemone von Friedheck, VDH/KFT 22039
Schneeprinz II von Friedheck, VDH/KFT 25/26928 geb. 27.08.1989
Schneezauber von Friedheck, geb. 10.02.1989 Ð
As you can see Schneezauber was born 10/02 1989 after the ACH was established yet he was registered KFT/VDH Yorkshire terrier.
Had the KFT thought these dogs were cross breds they NEVER would have registered them.
But yet these these puppies sired (and / or born of three-color Yorkshire Terriers have no registration from VDH / KFT) but you see the numbers, This is not ACH numbers because ACH uses as the first 2 digits the year they were born in the registration #
Schneerose von Friedheck, Friedheck-Nr.: 001
Schneewirbel von Friedheck, Friedheck-Nr.: 018
Schneeblume von Friedheck, Friedheck-Nr.: 031
Then you have these dogs registered in ACH
Schneewieselchen von Friedheck, ACH 871094, geb. 29.09.1986
Schneediavolo von Friedheck, ACH 881543, geb. 19.09.1987
Schneeball von Friedheck, ACH 882338
Schneeflocke von Friedheck, ACH 882423
Werner Biewer in the years 1984-1989, used all three options for registration of his three-colored Yorkshire terriers . Some litters he still has VDH / KFT registered, others the pedigree itself is written for and still others at ACH Association) registered.
There are a total of 52 dogs names in the pedigree database but few can be actually traced back to their ancestors. Why are these dogs unknown? It was the 80's and there is no reason to have blank pedigrees in the 80's.
What I want to know is have the Biewer Clubs researched this and what exactly are their findings?

Also i have to add
How did Mr .Biewer come up with so many tri's out of standard colored yorkies?
Darling was bred to these dogs and produced tri"s?
Dinie Von Friedheck Blue and tan.......Produced a TRi Male Diavoletta Bianco
Fru FRu Blue and tan..produced Tri F ..Schneeflochen VH
FRuFRu Blue and tan..Schneeflocke Tri F
Fru Fru ...Gran Pom Pon Tri F
Nanuck Von Friedheck.. blue and tan..... tri F Schneeanemone Von Friedheck
Simone Von Fried heck....Blue and tan... Schneeflower VF TRi Female 1990
Simone Von FriedHeck.... Schneewolke ... Tri F
Olivia II blue and gold....Schneeprinz Tri Male born 1989
Iwy Von Friedheck Blue an gold ...Schneewolf VF Male Tri
Daisey Von Friedheck ..blue and gold ..Schneexenia VF TRi Female
Daisey Von Friedheck ..blue and gold ..Schneezauber VF TRi Male born 2/10/1989
Were all these females carriers of the tri color gene???
These are questions that need to be answered before you can even establish this as a breed of its own.
How much research have the Biewer Clubs actually done??

These are very good questions and I do not have the answers for you. But you have given me some motivation to do some additional research.

I don't think too many members of the Biewer Terrier Club come on this forum anymore --you might want to go their site for answers. The other clubs' members will probbly post soon and hopefully they know more than I do about some of these ancestors.

Thanks Dee,
Another question I had was why do the clubs post on their websites that Mr. Biewer never bred anything but Biewer to Biewer when in fact he did breed his yorkies back to his tri colors, Isnt that posting false information?

I think people will find a letter from M. Ostern, on numerous internet Biewer sites, which states quite clearly what Frau Biewers' thoughts were about breeding Biewer to Yorkie. I believe she says it is a Fraud. She is alive today, perhaps people could contact her and ask her to answer all their many many questions. The KFT refused to continue to register Herr Biewers' dogs as a true breed conformation, was it just the colour or indeed the whole dog? Perhaps someone should ask the KFT why? When dogs are registered in many, many different registries ACH, ACH-L, IBC,DHZ,WRZ etc etc, their true ancestry cannot be accurately traced, a pedigree is only as honest as it's breeder. :aimeeyork

How did this dog suddenly become a cousin to the Yorkshire Terrier when they came from Yorkshire Terriers and I leave out the 2 because he bred other females to Darling to get the tri's, not all are from the mating of Darling and Fru Fru.
All these tri's were bred back to each other or bred back to Darling. Still being bred as Yorkshire terrier to yorkshire terrier just tri colored. How did they suddenly morph into another breed???? When did they become something other than the Yorkshire Terrier.

I think that can be (partially) attributed to some being blinded by their desires to see the dogs recognized as their own breed and allowed to be shown in conformation events. Most everyone seemed to stand behind the history of the dogs in that they came from standard Yorkies until they met opposition in getting them recognized and show eligible here in the US. Then things get fuzzy.

This is a very relevant question, but to assume they suddenly, became a cousin of the Yorkshire terrier and to assume they only came out of two may be a little nieve. There is nothing written about Herr Biewer's creations to explicitly confirm or deny how he got the colours of his little dogs. A pedigree is only as good as it's breeder. There is alot of missing info on these pedigrees, where did Daisy Von Friedheck come from (dam to Schneexenia & Schneezauber? who was Lolita von Friedheck (Dam to Renee) ? Who was Princess-Koala von Friedheck (Dam to Janny, dam to Schnee-Monsieur, )? Simone von Friedheck (Dam to Schneewolke)?

We can talk about Nanuck, Olivia,Graziella, EEV, Anja till we are blue in the face, it will not change the fact that the KFT stopped registering his little dogs, as not being true to type and standard for the pure bred Yorkie. They became something other then a pure bred Yorkshire Terrier, when they became a White dog with a Black Saddle on its back. That's why there are breed standards, the YTC UK has looked over and cared for these exquiste little dogs for the last 140 years, protected their ancestry, protected their rights as a pure bred dog. A registry is just that and open to diceipt by anyone wishing to place a dog of either another colour or indeed mixed breed onto the registry for that specific dog. What is the point of a breed standard, what is the point of breeding true? Why do we not have little white dogs on the UK registry, and please no more culling remarks, we love and cherrish our dogs, protect them, same as anyone does. How can these Biewer be protected, it is quite obvious they have been exploited for years, breeding lines contaminated as with the Yorkie, are we to have within the next 200 years only white Yorkie with Black saddles on their backs. Never in the history of the breed has this been written. Why do we not have these little dogs walking the streets of England? Enough said:aimeeyork You must seek the answers to your questions with Frau Biewer. A pedigree is only as good as the breeder!

I never said 2, I said there were more than 2,
Just because they were a different color it does not make them any less of a yorkshire terrier when they were born from 2 yorkshire terriers. Registered or not.
Again Mr Biewer was not the first person to ever get a tri color from 2 standard colored yorkies.
As to why they are not registered there in the UK is because you DON"T have them in the Uk, AS per your statements yet isnt it odd you have a Biewer Terrier club and also are sporting a parti yorkie website.
We live in the USA and they are here and that is what I care about not what happens in the UK.
as for the tri's not being registered in KFT , this is not true, some were registered as shown here in Schneezaubers papers. AS you can see it has Daisys parents. He was registered with KFT/VDH in 1989 after the ACH was established.

A bit confused here, are you talking on behalf of Herr Biewer, there are missing pedigrees, missing info only he or Frau Biewer are able to answer,yet you seem to fill them in on his behalf "A pedigree is only as good as it's breeder". You seem to be confused as to what are the correct conformation colours of a pure bred Yorkshire Terrier. I prefer not to be mis-quoted, registries do register Tri's? Blue, Steel Grey,Tan is a Tri colour is it not. Are we now altering history and telling the breed clubs what is an accpeted colour for their dogs? I believe the AKC have already made that boo boo with the parti. In 140 years of being the originating country for the pure bred Yorkshire Terrier we have NO White Dogs with Black Saddles on their backs, neither I believe does Australia, home of the Silky Terrier, cousin to the Yorkie. I join as many clubs as I like, make as many web sites as I like, support people in a way I like, why do you continue with this jibe. I have a few more sites too as you are so interested, a Yorkitalk Magazine but one more, I like to spread the word, much like yourself. As I too have traced the ancestry of my dogs, I too have spoken to people who have infinately more knowledge then you or I and I believe the Yorkie to be a Tan dog with a Blue Saddle. A person cannot simply follow the history of a breed on a database complied by any Tom, Dick or Harry who chooses to put a pedigree on it, you cannot follow it on an assumed Pedigree Certificate. History is written by the breeders of these dogs, originator's of their kind. You seem to push only your parti's as some kind of quest to save them from extinction, truth is they are not breed true standard, we do not know of their true origin, they should not be sold as "Rare" for big dollars and neither should a Biewer. I live in the UK and see the Yorkie being exploited by American breeders, history being re-written by people with little or no knowledge of the breed, that is what I care about.:aimeeyork
Have you any replies yet to your questions on the Biewer, perhaps they should be put to Frau Biewer as I have already stated and not on a Yorkshire Terrier Forum.

:sidesplt:

I think this thread in General Discussion should have been posted here??

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...ml#post3264792

or in Showing???

I would not believe anything that M. Ostern wrote anyplace or anywhere
not even a letter to santa clause

Nope has nothing to do with this thread..........

:thumbup:

It is such a shame that people come on this site to post little rolling smilies when they are unable to get answers to their threads. I hope they have picked themselves up off the floor today. It is also very sad that people are unable to have a discussion about their dogs without the need for exacerbating a post. I simply suggested you find the answers you seek to your questions with the originator of this new breed and as unfortunately Herr Biewer is not longer here to answer your questions, it would leave Frau Biewer a member of the BTCA to answer your questions, if she wished. To make childish jibes at other breeders web sites and accuse them of posting untruths, is a little like:

Yes some members own both Parti and Biewers, after all they both are Yorkies.
As to them breeding them, How do you know this? Did you speak with them?
As far as talking with Mrs Biewer, she really does know very little about the dogs Mr Biewer raised. as it has been posted that she said Mr Biewer didnt breed his standard yorkies to the tri's and we know that is not true because the pedigrees show he did.
After he died she got rid of every dog he owned, if she had cared about the dogs wouldn't she have kept a few?
I'm sure anybody that is interested in the Biewer Yorkie has been told by somebody that if the Yorkshire Terrier is used to cross with the Biewer then it is no longer a Biewer Yorkie.

* Ask them how that can be if the FOUNDATION DAM AND SIRE ARE 100% YORKSHIRE TERRIERS?
* Ask them how that can be if YORKSHIRE TERRIERS are well entangled in the PEDIGREES of the GERMAN BIEWER?
* Ask them why the REGISTRIES in GERMANY still allow the cross?

A BIEWER is simply a YORKSHIRE TERRIER in a Belted pattern. The origin is of little consequence as they can be found from Germany to the United States to Hungary and around the world.

As AKC does consider the parti to be a "pure-bred" Yorkshire Terrier, I was quite proud to register my Razz as a parti-color yorkie!

LOLOL....I believe most members here well understand the meaning of the phrase... " Pot calling the kettle black "....your definition wasn't really necessary.;)

It's odd that there is any mystery about a dog that had it's origin only 25 years ago. You would think there would be complete documentation of every step of its development, including photographic evidence. Any gaps in documenting or questions left unanswered brings the entire enterprise into question. At first glance, the story of the Biewer is quite remarkable, with the odds of what is said to have happened being much less than winning the lottery 2 weeks in a row. What kind of canine alchemy was going on there?

I found this info on the web. Not sure how credible it is, but it does offer some pedigree info. Here's the link. WHAT MAKES IT A BIEWER YORKIE

Here's a bit from the link that I have a question about.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The ORIGINAL Biewer Club is the "ACH" - Allgemeiner Club der Hundefreunde Deutschland - ACH-L e. V. If GERMAN registration is a BIG DEAL to you then this is the registry that you should be registering with. If you register with any other German Registry then you are NOT registering with the ORIGINAL OFFICIAL German Registration Club and therefore should not be squawking about any United States Registry."

...and this

" History: The Breed of Biewer Yorkshire Terrier A la Pom Pon was officially recognized in 1986 by the "ACH" - Allgemeiner Club der Hundefreunde Deutschland - ACH-L e. V. The Biewer Family is given the recognition of producing the first Biewer Yorkshire Terrier A la Pom Pon born on January 20, 1984 by the name of Schnnefloecken von Friedheck or better known as "Snowflake". The Biewer's lived in Hunsruck, Germany."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, I may be reading this wrong, but it seems like the Biewer was first recognized by its own breed club and registered with it. What's that all about? :confused: :confused: Did Herr Biewer not only breed the Biewer, but started his own breed club and registry? If this is the case, all I can say is how 'convenient'.

To clear up any further misunderstandings...here is the complete quotation of the question and answer provided by Gertrude Biewer. Italics mine.

14. Did you and your husband ever go back to breed Yorkshire after getting enough genetic material to continue breeding Biewers? Did you stand for a pure breeding, or did you think a Yorkshire should be mixed in every now and then?
It’s a shame that people mix Yorkshires in. It is a fraud towards owner and other breeders.

The translation and letter are easily found on line. I was reluctant to link a website without an owner's permission, but google can provide a source easily.

One needn't leave YT to find proof of biewer x parti breedings.

And that is why I think she did not know what he was breeding because we know he did breed the standard colors back to his tri's.
The letter to me has many questions as in another question she was ask
When Mrs Biewer was asked this question below in a letter:

""Did you want the Biewer to be seen as an independent breed, or as a three-colored Yorkshire?""
Her response was "Well, it is a Yorky, only 3-colored"
Well if she stated that, then it contradicts that is another breed doesn't it.

Deb,
These are excellent questions however, I don't think you're going to get alot of responces (IMO) as far as I know, there has been very little if any real research done by the Clubs in the US. The most knowledgeable person I know regarding pedigrees has been totally drained from all of the constant fighting and bickering and has chosen to withdraw herself from it altogether.. German breeders are afraid to speak with anyone any more because of the horrific turmoil created here in the states by a few select "ladies" (term used loosely) and the devastating effects their self serving agenda has had on the Biewers name. Most German breeders are staying clear of the controversy and who can blame them. If they become involved their names and reputations are made subject to lies and childish behaviors by these "Ladies" and it's hard to tell who they can trust.

Mrs. Biewer, as far as I can tell, knew very little about her husbands breedings.. she is old, vulnerable and has also been "used" to further personal agendas. A translator was hired to speak with Gunther and I personally was on the phone during these conversations... he stated without reservation that the Biewer was born of traditionally colored Yorkies.. if there was any 'mixing or crossing' of other breeds, it was done PRIOR to the dogs coming to the Biewers home in the creation of the Yorkie itself. He stated there were many breeds that went into the creation of the Yorkie, and the tri coloring most likely was from one of these founding breeds. The Biewers bred yorkies ONLY, no other breeds.

Gunther was exceptionally surprised when he was told of the controversy's here in the states and could not understand the confusion. The Biewer is as it always has been, it has not changed.. it is the same dog now as when it was originally bred by the Biewers traditionally colored dogs.

I will be going back to Germany next summer for my grandsons baptism.. my hope is to visit some Biewer breeders in hopes of learning all I can and fill in some of these questions.. there are still a few left who have knowledge and experience in the formation of these dogs and will know the pedigrees. I know many of them have stopped posting on the database because of the "issues" mentioned above.. unless we can get these holes filled in now before the ones who really know the history, we'll be forever in the dark.

I have also been asked to bring my Parti boy with me.. which hopefully I will be able to do.

Diana :animal-pa

:thumbup: The only thing that confuses me here, is the fact that they use the term" Biewer Yorkshire a la Pom Pon, herr Biewer called his little creations "Biewer a la Pom Pon" after his own name and that certainly did not contain the word "Yorkshire". Are they using the titles BYT a la Pom Pon to justify breeding Biewer to Yorkie.

I am sorry that's your opinion not mine, I will quote whatever I myself feel to be relevant, thank you.

I also prefer not to have my posts mis quoted, I can't remember saying the parti were not recognised by the AKC, just not by the originating breed club oh yes and the UKKC in the UNITED KINGDOM dear.

DM: will reply to your post when I have time, busy building new site magazine at the mo :thumbup:

I didn't misquote you.

You said.... so long as they don't try to pass em off as a pure bred Yorkie with a piebald gene & register them with the AKC

My reply was a simple statement being that since the AKC does recognize the parti as a yorkieshire terrier, I was quite proud to register my parti yorkie. I'm not trying to "pass" him off as anything other than what he truly is a pure-bred yorkshire terrier - parti color :)

And again you are wrong, The Yorkshire name was included in his standard. Why would anyone believe you now after you keep posting lies.
Attached is Mr Biewers original standard. I do believe it says Biewer Yorkshire A la Pom pon

Deb, you are correct.. the name of the dog is and always was Biewer Yorkshire ala Pom Pon.. Mr. Biewer forgot the "terrier" part.. but he always included the Yorkshire.

Diana :animal-pa

I know this is a dumb question but: Does anyone REALLY know what Mr Biewer actually was breeding for 10+ years behind closed doors? Its sounds like Mrs Biewer was either left in the dark about his breeding program and in other instances seems as sharp as a tack.
I just wonder if he had an agenda: to produce a parti colored "Yorkie" just as a "breeder" in the U.S. had an agenda to produce a long haired Whippet and the other "breeder" whoes agenda was to produce a toy Afghan. As it turned out, I believe tht AkC actually registered the long haired Whippet but withdrew them after it was found out he was mixing breeds. I dont think the toy Afghan ever got off the ground.
Some of Mr Biewers' breeding records were missing after his death. Why? Also, breeding records are easy to falsify. Any iron clad proof of his breeding adventures over the years before the "spontaneous" arrival of the parti dogs?

I havent found anything on this.

Just wondering

Werner Biewer named the dogs Biewer Yorkshire a la pom pon and it, indeed, included the word yorkshire. The word which wasn't included was...terrier.

This got me to thinking....isn't Yorkshire in England where Mr. Biewer might be from? And now I can see why he would leave in the word "Biewer Yorkshire" and left out "terrier" if it wasn't a "yorkshire terrier" Just a thought.....