Yorkshire Terrier Club of Ethical Hobby Breeders

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by gardenyorkies

DNA only proves parentage not color...As said before many times we don't know where the white is coming from...It is thought to be from another breed years ago which would not show up on a DNA test of today...So we really don't know...
The white that may have been there years ago was not desirable and breeders have worked hard to keep the blue/tan yorkie as it is...Not going to just trash years of work because one group of people now want it...Where do we draw the line...all gold, blue borns...blue/tan...gold/tan...I think not...I personally think the line was drawn in the right place...

The DNA is only one portion of the proof. The AKC also interviewed many of the old time breeders and were told that the Wildweir kennels produced more partis than the Nikko kennel did.

Add that to all of the mentions of the white parti from as far back as the records go, and it is pretty evident that they have always been a part of the yorkie.

It is not proof beyond a shadow of a doubt, but it is proof that it is more likely than not, that it has always been there.

No one is trashing years of hard work. Adding a category for the parti color will in no way affect the traditional colored yorkies, or breeders.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

This sums it up nicely. Also, the YTCA didn't pick on just Partis for DQ. Chocolates and goldens, among others, are affected by the same DQ. If a group of breeders of these dogs were to make a fuss, they would meet the same argument.

Also, as Topknot pointed out earlier, a too small dog, though not a DQ, will not ever win in the ring. Likewise, a too light adult as Donna pointed out. No one is beating down the door to champion these dogs. While they may be beautiful, they are not the best representations of the breed and shouldn't be championed. So, just because the YTCA doesn't specifically exclude these dogs, the ring has served as the final proving ground for breed-worthiness and most acknowledge that reality.

it sums up gardenyorkies personal opinion. It is in no way a summary of fact.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I am only going to say this as an observer and this is what is concerning me about alot of the parti breeders.(not all, but most are breeders on the parti web-sites and some are members that post here)

I have looked at your pictures. Granted they are very cute. OK, here comes the BUT!!LOL
It seems to me that most of you are only breeding for color only. The conformation of the dogs is sub-standard, to say the least. I see roached backs, sparse hair, long noses, down faces, bat ears, bad fronts and rears, poor ears sets, loppy ears, low tail sets, etc. And these are your breeding stock! I fail to see how you are going to improve your stock breeding the quality that I have seen. I am not looking at just color either. Its the conformation that, if it were me and these were all blue and tan dogs, I would spay and neuter most of them.
I am not wanting to start any arguments, I am just observing. As is said, people tend to get kennel blindness after a while. And breeding for one triat is not a good idea. The rest of the dogs gets lost.
I know, I know. There are tons of standard breeders that breed sub-standard Yorkies. They are everywhere. But (theres that word again!LOL), you are wanting to show you dogs, hopefully someday, and I cant think of many breeder/exhibitors of Yorkies that would have started with the quaility you advertise.

As I said I dont want to start arguments. These are some serious matters that some of the parti breeders need to think about. Most of those faults I mentioned will takes years and generations to breed out.
Hoepfully you will take this as constructive critisizm.

It is the same critisizim we have given ourselves. This is not new to us. But most of us are still in our first generation of breeding the partis. We are learning, and searching for the right dogs to breed to, in order to improve their looks.

We are doing the same thing that other breeders are doing. Working on establishing and improveing our own lines. It's all a work in progress. But for the parti breeders it is more difficult, since finding good quality dogs to breed to is not easy.

Which leads to the next issue of people showing the carriers. They are doing so, to get breed worthy dogs in order to improve the quality of the parti.

Perhaps some day, if we can produce partis that are correct in every way except color, people will start to change their opinions.

[gardenyorkies]

A Flashy (parti) Boxer bred to a Flashy Boxer will produce both flashy and classic (solid) puppies...Can you say the same for the genetic makeup of the Parti's?

IMO if everyone attended a genetic seminar everyone would learn the repercussions of allowing white to be added to the breed standard...We have to look farther than our own personal desires when contemplating such a thing...Many of the parti breeders would like to blame this reaction on fear but it is actually based on genetic knowledge....

[puppylove11]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I am only going to say this as an observer and this is what is concerning me about alot of the parti breeders.(not all, but most are breeders on the parti web-sites and some are members that post here)

I have looked at your pictures. Granted they are very cute. OK, here comes the BUT!!LOL
It seems to me that most of you are only breeding for color only. The conformation of the dogs is sub-standard, to say the least. I see roached backs, sparse hair, long noses, down faces, bat ears, bad fronts and rears, poor ears sets, loppy ears, low tail sets, etc. And these are your breeding stock! I fail to see how you are going to improve your stock breeding the quality that I have seen. I am not looking at just color either. Its the conformation that, if it were me and these were all blue and tan dogs, I would spay and neuter most of them.
I am not wanting to start any arguments, I am just observing. As is said, people tend to get kennel blindness after a while. And breeding for one triat is not a good idea. The rest of the dogs gets lost.
I know, I know. There are tons of standard breeders that breed sub-standard Yorkies. They are everywhere. But (theres that word again!LOL), you are wanting to show you dogs, hopefully someday, and I cant think of many breeder/exhibitors of Yorkies that would have started with the quaility you advertise.

As I said I dont want to start arguments. These are some serious matters that some of the parti breeders need to think about. Most of those faults I mentioned will takes years and generations to breed out.
Hoepfully you will take this as constructive critisizm.

Have you seen some of the specimens being shown in the conformation ring now of the "STANDARD COLOR"? I very much doubt you will find every standard colored yorkie in the ring to be of sound structure! How many yorkies of the standard color being shown have bad fronts, bad rears, roach backs, east/west huge ear sets, bad bites, down faced, low tail sets etc? The list goes on and on!

You also cannot group every parti breeder into the same bad breeder group! There is good and bad in everything!

I have a beautiful standard colored show boy in my home with that being said I also own a beautiful parti boy straight from the Nikko breeder. I would place my parti boy up against my multi champion sired standard colored boy any old day!

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by chachi

I wonder how parti breeders would even know how to evaluate their dogs for faults since they are never evaluated by a professional

I believe THIS is the issue we are discussing here.. Most of us did not start with Parti's.. we started with Yorkies.. Most of us go to AKC shows, we have knowledge of good structure, we learn everything we can wherever we can.. We show in the venues that will accept us.. there are wonderful judges in the NAKC and the IABCA. they spend time evaluating our dogs as they want us to succeed.. they bring out both the good and the bad about each dog.. We don't just sit and play video games all day..

There is no doubt the Parti as a whole needs improvement.. that to breed dogs simply because they carry the gene is NOT the goal and shouldn't be.. BUT.. of course there are people who will do that.. These are not people who are seriously interested in the long term growth of the Parti Yorkie.. I don't believe for the most part,these are the types of people you are speaking with on this forum.

We are continually striving to produce higher quality dogs.. we DO that by showing them.. getting critiques, gain experience, breeding with better dogs.. opening our lines.. getting in new dogs.. just as any good breeders do.

We are self critical, we know the weakness in our dogs.. at least I do.. I focus on one thing at a time.. the things that are most important to me.. the first being health. Next my focus was a nice strong level topline.. when I'm confident that seems good.. then I'll work on ears.. to me health and structure are a higher priority. We are building.. the Biewers have only been in this country since 2005.. we have come a long way in 5 years.. but as you know.. things take time. Germany did not have the same priorites as we do in the states.. so, we take what the foundation gave us and we work on improving it... starting with what is most important.

I for one, am not saying that we (the Biewers or the Parti's) are ready to jump in the ring and go head to head with the standard colored yorkies today.. but I am saying.. we will work towards that day.

Diana

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by gardenyorkies

A Flashy (parti) Boxer bred to a Flashy Boxer will produce both flashy and classic (solid) puppies...Can you say the same for the genetic makeup of the Parti's?

IMO if everyone attended a genetic seminar everyone would learn the repercussions of allowing white to be added to the breed standard...We have to look farther than our own personal desires when contemplating such a thing...Many of the parti breeders would like to blame this reaction on fear but it is actually based on genetic knowledge....

Laura.. what gene creates the Parti in the Flashy Boxer?


Diana

[gardenyorkies]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

Laura.. what gene creates the Parti in the Flashy Boxer?


Diana

It is the white spotting gene...

[gemy]

I will not comment on the debate on whether or not or when the DQ should be lifted for the Partis.

What I will say is this beautifull breed of ours have serious health concerns, and I would hope that every Yorkshire Terrier fancier and breeder be they Partis, or Standards are supporting the research into identifying the gene or genes responsible for liver shunt. That you are very carefully monitoring your breeding program, and tracking your pups.

Next LP is almost epidemic in small breeds. Why is it so prevalent? What and where is the research for this? Do you breed LP 1 or LP 2 Dogs? How do you plan on eliminating this from the Yorkshire Terrier Breed?

As an owner and a concerned fancier of the Yorkie, I anxiously await the day, the the liver shunt gene is identified, and some progress is made in eliminating LP in the Yorkie.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by gemy

I will not comment on the debate on whether or not or when the DQ should be lifted for the Partis.

What I will say is this beautifull breed of ours have serious health concerns, and I would hope that every Yorkshire Terrier fancier and breeder be they Partis, or Standards are supporting the research into identifying the gene or genes responsible for liver shunt. That you are very carefully monitoring your breeding program, and tracking your pups.

Next LP is almost epidemic in small breeds. Why is it so prevalent? What and where is the research for this? Do you breed LP 1 or LP 2 Dogs? How do you plan on eliminating this from the Yorkshire Terrier Breed?

As an owner and a concerned fancier of the Yorkie, I anxiously await the day, the the liver shunt gene is identified, and some progress is made in eliminating LP in the Yorkie.

I agree with you and it's important to note that health is a very big part of what the Yorkshire Terrier Club of American (YTCA) is trying to promote:

Mission Statement


* To foster and promote the public’s knowledge and appreciation of dogs in general and Yorkshire Terriers in particular;

* To further understand diseases, defects, and other ailments that affect dogs in general and Yorkshire Terriers in particular;

* To support and promote research into hereditary and other diseases of Yorkshire Terriers and other breeds of dogs;

* To establish a national data base of resource materials about Yorkshire Terriers; and

* To produce, publish and distribute, to the general public, educational materials concerning the health, care and diseases of Yorkshire Terriers. YTCA Foundation

I would hope the Yorkshire Terrier Club of Ethical Hobby Breeders takes these concerns to heart and uses their club in the same way.

[jackson25]

Originally Posted by gemy

I will not comment on the debate on whether or not or when the DQ should be lifted for the Partis.

What I will say is this beautifull breed of ours have serious health concerns, and I would hope that every Yorkshire Terrier fancier and breeder be they Partis, or Standards are supporting the research into identifying the gene or genes responsible for liver shunt. That you are very carefully monitoring your breeding program, and tracking your pups.

Next LP is almost epidemic in small breeds. Why is it so prevalent? What and where is the research for this? Do you breed LP 1 or LP 2 Dogs? How do you plan on eliminating this from the Yorkshire Terrier Breed?

As an owner and a concerned fancier of the Yorkie, I anxiously await the day, the the liver shunt gene is identified, and some progress is made in eliminating LP in the Yorkie.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by gardenyorkies

It is the white spotting gene...

Thanks Laura.. but I'm missing why we would want to say the same thing about the Biewers or the Parti's .. this is what I found..

WHITE BOXERS

One of the most interesting cases of white patterning occurs in the Boxer. Boxers generally come in the irish spotting pattern, so we would expect most examples of the breed to have sisi on the S locus. However, sometimes Boxer puppies are born which are completely or almost completely white. How these puppies could be regularly born to parents with much more colour perplexed Boxer breeders for a long time.

However, we can now provide an answer to this. Breeders have been breeding for "flashy" dogs, which are irish spotted dogs with more white than the normal pattern usually produces. It turns out that these dogs have more white than normal because they are not homozygous for si. Their genotype is, in fact, sisw, so they have one gene for irish spotting and one for extreme white. This is what causes them to have extra white - the incomplete dominance that si has over sw results in a dog with more white than normal irish spotting. When two of these flashy dogs are bred together, one in four of the puppies will have the extreme white pattern:

Does that make them genetically superior in some way? I may just be missing something.. the Parti's and the Biewers have the same spotting gene (White spotting meaning actually white areas as in lack of color, not actually spots) in different patterns, be it Piebald or Irish spotting..

This is a great link if anyone is interested: Dog Coat Colour Genetics

Diana

[puppylove11]

Originally Posted by gemy

I will not comment on the debate on whether or not or when the DQ should be lifted for the Partis.

What I will say is this beautifull breed of ours have serious health concerns, and I would hope that every Yorkshire Terrier fancier and breeder be they Partis, or Standards are supporting the research into identifying the gene or genes responsible for liver shunt. That you are very carefully monitoring your breeding program, and tracking your pups.

Next LP is almost epidemic in small breeds. Why is it so prevalent? What and where is the research for this? Do you breed LP 1 or LP 2 Dogs? How do you plan on eliminating this from the Yorkshire Terrier Breed?

As an owner and a concerned fancier of the Yorkie, I anxiously await the day, the the liver shunt gene is identified, and some progress is made in eliminating LP in the Yorkie.

This is what every breeder should be concerned with! Health should always be a breeders NO.#1 concern, but for many the money they place into their pockets is more important rather it be a standard colored yorkie or a parti colored yorkie. I personally do have issues with so many breeders preaching about the ytca, as I personally know and have bought from ytca breeders who do NO testing on their breeding stock or the off springs their breeding stock produces. So if the ytca is the elite club for the yorkshire terriers and they set the standards for the breed (which they want every breeder to follow) they should also set a good example of breeding healthy stock along with doing the proper testing needed to confirm their stock is healthy!

[jackson25]

Originally Posted by puppylove11

This is what every breeder should be concerned with! Health should always be a breeders NO.#1 concern, but for many the money they place into their pockets is more important rather it be a standard colored yorkie or a parti colored yorkie. I personally do have issues with so many breeders preaching about the ytca, as I personally know and have bought from ytca breeders who do NO testing on their breeding stock or the off springs their breeding stock produces. So if the ytca is the elite club for the yorkshire terriers and they set the standards for the breed (which they want every breeder to follow) they should also set a good example of breeding healthy stock along with doing the proper testing needed to confirm their stock is healthy!

As stated already, there are good and bad breeders in every walk of life. Just because one breeder is a member of this club or that club, doesn't mean that breeder is any better than the one that doesn't belong to this or that club. It all gets back to ethics, which is something one is born with, doing the right thing. Any club is going to have members who don't always follow the rules or do the right thing. Doesn't mean the club in a whole is bad, just a few of the members, the good of the YTCA out ways the bad for sure!

[gardenyorkies]

Originally Posted by jackson25

As stated already, there are good and bad breeders in every walk of life. Just because one breeder is a member of this club or that club, doesn't mean that breeder is any better than the one that doesn't belong to this or that club. It all gets back to ethics, which is something one is born with, doing the right thing. Any club is going to have members who don't always follow the rules or do the right thing. Doesn't mean the club in a whole is bad, just a few of the members, the good of the YTCA out ways the bad for sure!

Diana can you breed a parti to a parti and get blue and tan puppies?

You can breed Boxers and get both solid and parti pups...

I guess my concern is that you can not get a mix of both colors in the same litter thus making it easier to make the blue/tan yorkie genetically extint in years to come if the white was allowed as a variation...