Question for breeders?

[Cooper2010]

I agree WinstonsMom. I didn't know what caused him to start limping. He may have jumped off the couch and hurt himself, or he could have done it playing with my daughters dog. All I can go by is what the pathology said. Sheesh, I hope he doesn't develop it in the other leg, he's still limping on the one he had surgery on. I don't think they knowingly sold me a sick dog. I wonder if they've every been in this predicament before?

Their health guarantee says they offer a one year guarantee against congenital defects that are life threatening.

[scrapindee]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

Approaching them for a refund is very appropriate! My guarantee states that I will refund up to the price of the puppy, with a Vet's statement. Or I offer a replacement puppy and you keep the original puppy too. It is up to the new family if you want a refund or puppy. But in either case, you get to keep the puppy. But I will take the puppy back if that is what the new family wishes.

I do the same thing. I may also ask you to take the dog to a specialist for one more opinion but you are definitely owed a refund of your purchase or another puppy from a different litter. And I would not repeat the breeding of the parents.

[WinstonMom]

"Life threatening" is one of those ways that breeders get out of covering things like this. I have actually done a lot of reading on Legge-Perthes as I sold a pup a couple of years ago that developed it. At that time I had life threatening in my contract as well (because I had copied someone else's). I have changed it since. I did, however, refund the money for that pup. By time that pup was diagnosed, (he was a year old), I had already bred both of his parents again (but not to each other). I did not breed them again after I found out and had no problems with any of their other pups (thankfully). Breeders keeping careful records of problems and being totally honest with problems that they have had with their lines, especially when selling animals to other breeders is the first and most important step in helping to control some of the problems that yorkies have healthwise. Sadly, some breeders don't do this. It is also very important that all problems with pups are reported to the breeder. I am glad you let them know.
I still think your money should be refunded, and I hope the breeder recognizes the importance of not repeating that breeding.

[Cooper2010]

I also took the "life threatening" term as a way out. I have much to think about. Thank you all for your input. I appreciate it.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by WinstonMom

I agree that you should be refunded for your pup. As a breeder, that is what I would do. Legge-Perthes is a sad and crippling disease of young dogs and I don't think that the new owner should be left with no compensation.
However, I do believe that the jury is still out as to what causes it. As far as I know, there seems to be more evidence of it being strictly genetic if the pup develops it in both legs as opposed to just one. From what I understand, in cases of it being caused by trauma, the injury can be so slight as to not be noticed by the owner. I have also done some reading that indicated that they think the trauma at birth could have something to do with it, as it is more common in pups born by C-section. There is no way that the breeder could have known about this problem before you got your dog, as there are no signs until the head of the femur starts to deteriorate. Personally, I would not breed either of the parents again, but I think it is very important that your breeder understands that they should not repeat the same breeding again (could save another from the same heartbreak you had).
Good luck with your pup, I think your breeder should refund you.

This happened within two weeks of getting the puppy...It would seem to me if was there when they did the health check but I don't know as the femur was soft (my technical word haha) to begin with.

Can you further explain why a C-section would cause this...doesn't make sense to me...dah.

[WinstonMom]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

This happened within two weeks of getting the puppy...It would seem to me if was there when they did the health check but I don't know as the femur was soft (my technical word haha) to begin with.

Can you further explain why a C-section would cause this...doesn't make sense to me...dah.

The study that mentioned the c-sections, stated that they felt that the trauma that damaged the blood supply to the head of the femur may occur at birth and that a traumatic birth was more likely to damage the joint than a non-traumatic birth. C-section they considered to be a traumatic birth as well as pups that required a lot of manipulation during birth. Don't know if I believe this, I just read it when I was doing my research.

As far as a health check finding this, you would have to be x-raying the pup to find it. Even so, when they start limping the hip usually still looks normal (did on my pup), it was diagnosed by finding progressing degeneration of the hip during subsequent x-rays. I don't x-ray hips on my pups, if they are not limping I wouldn't see the point. I do on my breeding dogs just to make sure that they do not have a mild Legge-Perthes with no symptoms. Do other breeders x-ray their pups before they sell them, I don't know?

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by WinstonMom

The study that mentioned the c-sections, stated that they felt that the trauma that damaged the blood supply to the head of the femur may occur at birth and that a traumatic birth was more likely to damage the joint than a non-traumatic birth. C-section they considered to be a traumatic birth as well as pups that required a lot of manipulation during birth. Don't know if I believe this, I just read it when I was doing my research.

As far as a health check finding this, you would have to be x-raying the pup to find it. Even so, when they start limping the hip usually still looks normal (did on my pup), it was diagnosed by finding progressing degeneration of the hip during subsequent x-rays. I don't x-ray hips on my pups, if they are not limping I wouldn't see the point. I do on my breeding dogs just to make sure that they do not have a mild Legge-Perthes with no symptoms. Do other breeders x-ray their pups before they sell them, I don't know?

Hmmm on the C-section..I would actual think it was less stressful on the pups not having to go through the birth canal...Interesting.

I do know my father did x-ray his labs and the puppies. I have to admit I was pretty shocked when I learned Yorkies could get this as I always thought of it as a big dog disease. I really wonder if more breeders should be x-raying the dogs...more food for thought...

Thanks for the info...

[WinstonMom]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

Hmmm on the C-section..I would actual think it was less stressful on the pups not having to go through the birth canal...Interesting.

I do know my father did x-ray his labs and the puppies. I have to admit I was pretty shocked when I learned Yorkies could get this as I always thought of it as a big dog disease. I really wonder if more breeders should be x-raying the dogs...more food for thought...

Thanks for the info...

Cindy,
Are you sure that your dad wasn't x-raying his labs for hip dysplasia, that is a large dog disease. Legge-Perthes is a different disease. With Legge-Perthes the dog is born with a normal hip joint but for some reason the blood supply to the head of the femur is cut off and the ball of the joint starts to deteriorate. With hip dysplasia, it is the socket that is badly shaped and the dog is born that way.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by Cooper2010

Yes, I actually took possession of the puppy at the vet's. I received the health certificate, he got his shots, etc., right there that day with the breeders present. The LP showed up on x-ray after the limping started. The x-rays showed deterioration over a two week period thus the LP diagnosis and the recommendation that the sooner the surgery was done the better the dog would be.

That's how LeggeCalvesPerthes works, it doesn't necessarily show up in a regular health check, First indication iis a limp that won't go away. Xray will show what looks like a break at the head of the femur but it actually is the head of the bone that is losing blood flow and disintegrating the head of the bone. In surgery, that head of the bone is cut off and a new joint will generate with the right care. Exactly how long it takes for that what looks like a break to show up on an xray, i don't know. Xraying at say 3 months may tell you nothing.
LCP should be guaranteed in a contract, with replacemetn of the puppy. If the new owner wants to keep the puppy, fine but I would ask the puppy be returned to me, my vet does the surgery and I do the rehab unless I am comfident the new owner can handle the rehab. Then return the puppy and return half at least of the purchase price.
As I don't sell out of my area, my buyers always have access to me, my vets and I can help them out anytime.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by WinstonMom

Cindy,
Are you sure that your dad wasn't x-raying his labs for hip dysplasia, that is a large dog disease. Legge-Perthes is a different disease. With Legge-Perthes the dog is born with a normal hip joint but for some reason the blood supply to the head of the femur is cut off and the ball of the joint starts to deteriorate. With hip dysplasia, it is the socket that is badly shaped and the dog is born that way.

Dah, hitting myself in the forehead...I knew that but apparently didn't yesterday... thanks and you are right...

[Cooper2010]

My sister in law bought a chocolate lab Christmas of 08 for her daughter. She has hip dysplasia and was told there was nothing they could do for her. I didn't know some breeders x-ray for that.

The description from Lorraine and WinstonMom is exactly how this played out. The pup was fine then developed a limp that didn't go away.

I've decided to ask my vet what he thinks I should do about approaching the breeder. On his advice, since he knows them well, I'll either drop it or pursue it. Either way, I'm not giving him back and I don't think I want another puppy at this time. They are a lot of work!

[BamaFan121s]

If it was something that was determined to be genetic, I would think the breeder should assist with vet bills and treatments up to the price the owner paid for the dog. Not to mention they should be making some MAJOR changes in their breeding program.

[k Owensk9]

I'd refund the total price of the puppy and make sure NEVER to breed the parents again !! EVER !!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Cooper2010

I'll explain why I ask if it's an unusual question. My husband and I got Cooper on March 27th, he was born on Nov. 19, 2009. Within two weeks we had him neutered to try to avoid any marking behaviors he might develop. Shortly after he started to limp, the initial vet fee was $248 for the x-rays, the visit, the medication. Two weeks later he wasn't any better. A second x-ray was $52 and a diagnosis of Legg-Perthes. Ten days later (5/25/10) he had FHO at a cost of $1,079. The vet and myself notified the breeder. They sent me a well wishing email, I emailed them after the surgery to update them on his status. The bone was sent to pathology and it was a genetic defect, there was no sign of trauma. The vet also notified them of the test results. I've heard nothing from them and I haven't contacted them either.

Basically in a little more than 8 weeks we spent three times what we paid for the pup in vet bills (not counting the neuter of course). I just wondered what some of you as breeders would think the recourse should be, if any? We did have a one-year health guarantee, but what does that cover?

My husband thinks they should give us back half (if not the full amount) we paid to help cover the vet bills. I don't know what would be the ethical thing to do, I do know they are aware of the situation and haven't offered.

I paid for all this on my CC so I will be paying for this surgery for months if not years as I'm not in the position right now in this economy to pay the whole bill at once.

I guess I'm looking for advice and guidance on how I should handle this, if I should do anything at all? I love the little guy dearly and have no regrets but I never dreamed that I would have well over $2000 invested in him in such a short time.

[k Owensk9]

I MAY BE NEW TO YORKIE TALK BUT i'VE BRED FOR 28 YEARS !! i'VE NEVER HAD SUCH A PROBLEM IN YORKIES !

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by k Owensk9

I MAY BE NEW TO YORKIE TALK BUT i'VE BRED FOR 28 YEARS !! i'VE NEVER HAD SUCH A PROBLEM IN YORKIES !

Many breeders have never heard of the disease until a client complains of it happening in their new puppy. It's really important for breeders to study and be familiar with all the diseases affecting the breed. Here's what the YTCA says on LEGG-CALVE-PERTHES DISEASE:

Prevention of the disease is only possible through genetic means. Affected animals should not be bred. Breeding stock should have their hips X-rayed to insure that they are not affected with mild LPD, the symptoms of which went unnoticed during the dog's adolescence. Extreme caution should be used when considering breeding animals that have produced LPD, or have LPD affected littermates. Health Issues