Lost 2 and doing all I can.. Advice?

[LittlePaws]

15 days ago today my 5lb Mom gave birth to 5 live pups. On the day of their birth one female sounded very raspy. I took them all to the vet. They all went on antibiotics and the little raspy girl went on breathing treatments 3x's a day. Day 3 they went back to the vet and he said pneumonia. They changed antibiotics and all 5 went on breathing treatments. The next day our raspy baby died. Then that same day female #2 also sounded raspy. Checked with the vet, added benadryl and fluid under the skin on ALL pups because they were now getting dehydrated. Was already feeding the runt and one other girl every 2 hours because they were not getting enough to eat.. Puppies went back to the vet and he said they have REFLUX of all things. No cleft or anything but that had already been checked. ..the next morning at 930 am our second baby girl died.
Now we continue the breathing treatments. we keep them upright after eating, We feed every 2-3 hours round the clock. Our big boy ( 7oz!) has his eyes open and is nursing like a champ. our surviving girl is 4.4 oz. Not loosing but no gain in 5 days!!! No raspy sound. No fluid from the nose. Just no gain
Our tiny boy is holding at 3.9oz and has also not gained in 5 days.
I am really at a loss. I am doing everything the vet sais to do. I am keeping them with mom. But feeding and cleaning them. Running a humidifier and a heater keeping them at 82 degrees. Giving all meds and breathing treatments and in general I feel GREAT about everything except their weight.
I have NEVER had to burry one of our little ones before and loosing these 2 babies just broke my heart. Is there ANYTHING anything at all I can do to help these little ones pull through? Maybe there is something the vet didn't think of.. I did take them to another vet for a second opinion and all he added was benadryl. 1.5 of a cc every 12 hours.
so to put their day all in one place the puppies, eat every 2-3 hours 4 CC ( Up from the 3 they were taking last week)

get 3 breathing treatments a day

get benadryl 2'x per day

Antibiotics 2x's per day

stay at 82 degrees and have a humidifier



we also have the Dex to use under the skin if they need it



They did take steroid in the albuterol for 5 days but are all done with that part.

I'm at a loss now.

[blancla]

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. What are you feeding them? I use equal parts goats milk to equal parts water. You may want to increase the heat a little more. I usually keep mine around 90 degrees. Also, I have found that while feeding them, I heat a towel and keep them in that while they are eating. You don't want to feed a cold puppy. Are you burping them after you feed them? Do you have any nutri-drops? Also, you might want to try the beef liver recipe that is posted for a fading puppy. My little one wasn't gaining or having much strength, but it did help him.

[LittlePaws]

I am feeding them Esbilac. They just came off the vet formula with colostrum 2 days ago as the vet said it was no longer needed. I feed them right in front of a space heater so they don't get cold.
I also added a heating pad on low. I was having issue with Mama not wanting to be anywhere near the pups. I had them at 86 but she just couldn't handle it. At 82 she will stay with them most of the time.
How do you get Mom to stay with them at 90?
I can try the beef liver, I'll try anything right about now. Just a .1 or .2 of 1 oz. would make me happy right now.

[scrapindee]

Warm the room. Put the heating pad on low, under 1/2 of the the whelping area so mom can move away from the puppies. Is mom eating? What is she eating? How much are they nursing?

I would try the liver recipe for the fading puppy.

[bjh]

Personally I think you might be keeping them too hot. If they are two weeks old they should be able to regulate their own body temperature. I always keep the room temperature around 80 the first couple weeks but I always have a heating pad covering half the whelping box. If the mom gets to hot it will effect her milk production. You can tell if the pups are cold because they will try to huddle with each other. If they are warm they will spread out. If they are too hot that will also cause them to get dehydrated.

My concern would be that the benadryl would make the pups sleep more than they should and that they are not getting enough milk. Does the mom seem to have plenty of milk? I do hope they improve and start gaining soon. I can understand your concerns.

[LittlePaws]

Originally Posted by scrapindee

Warm the room. Put the heating pad on low, under 1/2 of the the whelping area so mom can move away from the puppies. Is mom eating? What is she eating? How much are they nursing?

I would try the liver recipe for the fading puppy.

Ok the pad is on low and is under 1/2 the area. Mom is eating well, she is on Innova puppy, free fed and Innova flex stew each night.
Little tiny boy does NOT nurse, I have only seen him once on his own in 4 days. I do put him on mom and he gives it a good try but he gets tired very easy and goes to sleep. The little girl does nurse but not often, she also stays asleep. They lay there unmoving most of the time. When picked up they start rooting like they are starving. Even if it was only 20 min from being fed last.

[LittlePaws]

Originally Posted by bjh

Personally I think you might be keeping them too hot. If they are two weeks old they should be able to regulate their own body temperature. I always keep the room temperature around 80 the first couple weeks but I always have a heating pad covering half the whelping box. If the mom gets to hot it will effect her milk production. You can tell if the pups are cold because they will try to huddle with each other. If they are warm they will spread out. If they are too hot that will also cause them to get dehydrated.

My concern would be that the benadryl would make the pups sleep more than they should and that they are not getting enough milk. Does the mom seem to have plenty of milk? I do hope they improve and start gaining soon. I can understand your concerns.

I know the 2 small pups can not stay warm on their own. I am very careful to check often that he is not cold. He does loose heat fast if he goes off the pad and his Mom is out of the box. You can tell to touch him that he a little chilly, even at over 80 degrees.
Mom has great milk production.. but you may be right on the benadryl. I never thought about it making them sleepy!

[carmen in nj]

I think you are keeping the room too hot too.. I keep my whelping room at 75 degrees, I have a three sided whelping box with a cover, so it keeps the warmth, I do keep the heating pad under half and keep a flanel baby blanket in it. also I have the box sitting on a rug, not directly on the floor. do you have nutri drops that you can rub a drop on the babies mouth and see if that will motivate them to nurse?

[LittlePaws]

Originally Posted by carmen in nj

I think you are keeping the room too hot too.. I keep my whelping room at 75 degrees, I have a three sided whelping box with a cover, so it keeps the warmth, I do keep the heating pad under half and keep a flanel baby blanket in it. also I have the box sitting on a rug, not directly on the floor. do you have nutri drops that you can rub a drop on the babies mouth and see if that will motivate them to nurse?

I do have the drops. The pups don't like the taste. I do express a drop of milk and then put the pup on. They do suck and they do kneed with their paws as they should but it doesn't last long. I even support their back legs to keep them close and use less effort but they get tired so fast. I think I will not give them anymore Benadryl and see if that helps any.

My girl is a digger and likes to bury her babies. I have only her box with a blanket clipped over the top and a single sheet of unprinted newspaper in her box. The heating pad is under her box.

[WV~Yorkies]

Sorry for you loss. I would try the liver recipe. It does sound like they are to hot. Is this a first time mom? I think to the pups are to sleepy to nurse. Do you have them in a quite place? I noticed somthing with my mom she nurses more if it is quite and nothing going on. To much excitment in the house and she comes out and won't go back. I have to close my door jump on the bed and sit there and watch tv a while and tell the kids to back off. I didn't notice this at first because the kids where at school but this week them being off is when it started.

[blancla]

I had no idea that it was too hot. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong advice. I guess I was thinking of new born puppies when I read this.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by LittlePaws

I do have the drops. The pups don't like the taste. I do express a drop of milk and then put the pup on. They do suck and they do kneed with their paws as they should but it doesn't last long. I even support their back legs to keep them close and use less effort but they get tired so fast. I think I will not give them anymore Benadryl and see if that helps any.

My girl is a digger and likes to bury her babies. I have only her box with a blanket clipped over the top and a single sheet of unprinted newspaper in her box. The heating pad is under her box.

Most pups will not take the drops. Place a couple of drops on your finger and rub it into their gums. It's fast absorbing.

As far as the room being too hot Pups can't regulate their body temperature until 3 or 4 wees of age.

Week 1-2 94-992 degrees Farenheit
Week 3-4 12 100 degrees Farenheit.

However, these pups have medical issues and are dealing with just staying alive. You begin with the room at 85 degrees, dropping it a degree at a time each day......You may want to try a heating lamp instead. I use a regular lamp with 100 watt bulb.....about 2 feet above the whelping area.

You may want to switch them off of replacement forumla to Goats Milk with equal parts of distilled water. Goats Milk is the closests thing to mothers milk (97%). A six-ounce pup should be fed 45 cc daily.

What are using to feed the the pups? A syringe with a preemie nipple attached gives you better control. Just plunging enough milk into the nipple without overwhelming them and possibly aspirating them. Make sure you're burping them....giving them the chance to make more room to take in more milk.

[Lilyshuman]

I will be praying for your pups and Mamma! and watching for updates!

[LittlePaws]

Originally Posted by WV~Yorkies

Sorry for you loss. I would try the liver recipe. It does sound like they are to hot. Is this a first time mom? I think to the pups are to sleepy to nurse. Do you have them in a quite place? I noticed somthing with my mom she nurses more if it is quite and nothing going on. To much excitment in the house and she comes out and won't go back. I have to close my door jump on the bed and sit there and watch tv a while and tell the kids to back off. I didn't notice this at first because the kids where at school but this week them being off is when it started.

She is on our nursery. nothing goes on in there and only I go in there. I have lowered the temp now but am keeping the heating pad. No more Benadryl. I do sit with her often... Last night and today our smallest guy doesn't seem hungry. I try every 2 hours but he is taking less than 3cc. Now i'm really worried. Weight is stable at 3.9oz at 16 days old
I am thinking of going to Goats milk to see if that is better than the puppy formula.

[LittlePaws]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Most pups will not take the drops. Place a couple of drops on your finger and rub it into their gums. It's fast absorbing.

As far as the room being too hot Pups can't regulate their body temperature until 3 or 4 wees of age.

Week 1-2 94-992 degrees Farenheit
Week 3-4 12 100 degrees Farenheit.

However, these pups have medical issues and are dealing with just staying alive. You begin with the room at 85 degrees, dropping it a degree at a time each day......You may want to try a heating lamp instead. I use a regular lamp with 100 watt bulb.....about 2 feet above the whelping area.

You may want to switch them off of replacement forumla to Goats Milk with equal parts of distilled water. Goats Milk is the closests thing to mothers milk (97%). A six-ounce pup should be fed 45 cc daily.

What are using to feed the the pups? A syringe with a preemie nipple attached gives you better control. Just plunging enough milk into the nipple without overwhelming them and possibly aspirating them. Make sure you're burping them....giving them the chance to make more room to take in more milk.

Mom seems more comfortable with the room lowered to 78. The heat lamp is a great idea!
The pups are using Esbilac. I think I am sold on going to Goats milk.
our 3.9 oz pup has been taking 21 -28 cc each 24 hours. We are using a syringe as he does poorly with a nipple. His suck is weak and he gets tired.

How often would you feed at 16 days? Today he will only take less than 3cc every 2 hours. This is a decline for him. He has been taking 3 great