Need advice from experienced breeders?

[MntSnowBabies]

Originally Posted by Lilyshuman

I feel a bit ambushed, Here I am being totally honest and looking for some advice and two other members have come on and are having their own little chuckle at my expense.

Mary and Donna are both good hearts. They aren't laughing at you they are laughing at their experiences in the ring.

You both are obviously experienced and have beautiful dogs and I was honestly seeking advice.

Yes I realise my little girl may not be a breeder when the time comes but she has potential and that is what Deb sold her as.

I'm glad that you realize that she may not be a breeder quality dog. By no means am I trying to put you down here.

I am investing a lot of my time, energy, money, heart and soul into starting this program. It's people like Deb to help others start their dream. Most breeders won't even talk to me, won't even think about mentoring! Even in the CKC code of ethics it talks about mentorship!

I too have found that many breeders don't want to share, but don't forget there are those special ones out there. I have found a great friend on this site and she is teaching me a lot with the occasional chit-chat we have. She is mentoring me in my ways of starting my own program. She may never know how much she has helped me out all ready no matter how many times I will tell her.

I do have a mentor close by, she just won't have any females available for the next few years.

Your so luck to have a mentor close by. I live in a rural area and most mentors for me would still be 4 hours away.

It feels like available I want advice I am scared to write because I'm worried someone will jump all over me. I shouldn't have to explain every little detail every time I write a thread.

Please don't feel afraid to write a thread. I have asked some stupid questions on here, and bless peoples hearts they answered them. No you shouldn't have to explain every detail, but sometimes a way a thread can be written is not understood they way you may think some will take it. I have had a few of those. I'm not trying to bash you at all over this.

I every time there are a lot of people breeding Yorkies for the wrong motives and it must anger those who have dedicated a lifetime to responsible breeding. But please don't assume everyone is like that.

I didn't read on here that anyone was assuming that you were breeding for the wrong motives. I was just giving you my story of how I am and did start out. We are all suprised and happy that you are doing your research before and after you got your little one.

For those of you that have spent years with Yorkies... Don't you want to encourage proper responsible breeding and showing? So many breeders make it so hard to talk to them that it's no wonder people BY breed. My biggest opposition has been people who put me down because I'm new to this even though I want to better the breed... I may have a lot to learn but my heart is in the right place and I want to be careful and thoughtful with my Yorkies.

Please don't feel like we are trying to bash you on here. Many of us are glad of where you are in researching before you got into it. I know that it can seem as if some of the experienced breeders are coming on to you hard, but don't take their comments very hard. Many of them are opinionated and outspoken. I wanted to share my story with you as I too am new to the show/breeder ring, and I know how hard it is to get breeders/show exhibitors to talk to you and help you out, most are trying to figure out if your hearts in it before they spill some of their secrets. I was having a hard time till I took a shaky step and contacted one and it worked out. I know have a mentor/friend that is helping me evolve into what I want myself to be as a show exhibitor and breeder, granted she is out of my state, but I thank her for all the time she is taking with me to help me.

I'm sorry that your thread had turned to a different direction, but am glad that is getting back on track. And Elle has provided you with some great links.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Elle

Bile acid is a must to rule it out, no urine test will tell you. About her pedigree?

I don't feel you can know if a bitch is breed worthy so early. But you are on the right track. Kudus to you.
Livershunt is indeed a big killer in our breed. Start off w/ a healthy foundation bitch+healthy line. Here are some links w/ great info.

index

CHRONIC HEPATIC DISORDERS/HEPATIC VASCULAR DISORDERS/CONGENITAL PORTOSYSTEMIC SHUNT

Michigan Veterinary Specialists - Portosystemic Shunts

Maltese dogs Liver Shunt - Frequently Asked Questions

Liver Shunt

Liver Shunt Stories

My vet in Dallas works closely with Dr. Centers and after attending a conference with her, shared with me some information. Yorkshire Terriers are an anomolie when attemting to diagnose LS and urinalysis has been more revealing in diagnosing LS in Yorkies.

portosystemic shunt after some simple bloodwork (CBC, chemistry, urinalysis and a bile acids test) and X-rays (revealing a small liver because of poor circulation).

[Elle]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

My vet in Dallas works closely with Dr. Centers and after attending a conference with her, shared with me some information. Yorkshire Terriers are an anomolie when attemting to diagnose LS and urinalysis has been more revealing in diagnosing LS in Yorkies.

portosystemic shunt after some simple bloodwork (CBC, chemistry, urinalysis and a bile acids test) and X-rays (revealing a small liver because of poor circulation).

It is not possible to find a shunt or MVD with a urine test. One must do a before and after. I wish it was this simple. We can contact Dr. Tobias Faculty
to see if they have new information. Can you please share the logic of it? I would love to know your resources. Would you ple

From CrownRoyal Yorkies
Dogs with shunts will almost always have high bile acids 2 hours after eating, and at least 95% of dogs will have high bile acids after a 12 hours fast. For the most accurate test results, samples are taken after a 12 hour fast, and then repeated 2 hours after feeding. This is done for several reasons. Some dogs normally release bile acids in the middle of the night, and therefore would have a higher fasting result. Other dogs may have fat in their blood after eating, which could interfere with the results. If only one sample can be obtained, it is best to take it 2 hours after feeding.

Do all dogs with high bile acids have shunts?
Bile acids can be increased with any liver disease. Bile acids can also be mildly increased in normal dogs, particularly in some breeds (such as the Maltese) where chemicals that naturally occur in their blood interfere with the test. Most dogs with liver shunts have after feeding results of well over 100 (normal is 15-20). If the bile acids are only slightly increased, the vet may want to re run the test in 3 to 4 weeks.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Lilyshuman

I feel a bit ambushed, Here I am being totally honest and looking for some advice and two other members have come on and are having their own little chuckle at my expense.

You both are obviously experienced and have beautiful dogs and I was honestly seeking advice.

Yes I realise my little girl may not be a breeder when the time comes but she has potential and that is what Deb sold her as.

I am investing a lot of my time, energy, money, heart and soul into starting this program. It's people like Deb to help others start their dream. Most breeders won't even talk to me, won't even think about mentoring! Even in the CKC code of ethics it talks about mentorship!

I do have a mentor close by, she just won't have any females available for the next few years.

It feels like available I want advice I am scared to write because I'm worried someone will jump all over me. I shouldn't have to explain every little detail every time I write a thread.

I every time there are a lot of people breeding Yorkies for the wrong motives and it must anger those who have dedicated a lifetime to responsible breeding. But please don't assume everyone is like that.

For those of you that have spent years with Yorkies... Don't you want to encourage proper responsible breeding and showing? So many breeders make it so hard to talk to them that it's no wonder people BY breed. My biggest opposition has been people who put me down because I'm new to this even though I want to better the breed... I may have a lot to learn but my heart is in the right place and I want to be careful and thoughtful with my Yorkies.

I'm sorry you thought that I was chuckling at you but I truly wasn't. However, now that you brought it up, as an exhibitor/breeder I would not sell a breeder at 16 weeks old to anyone even a fellow exhibitor. Actually I don't sell any breeding yorkie and if I do they have to be shown "period"!! This isn't anything against newbies but it's how I practice plain and simple. I commend you for having a mentor and researching That is your best advantage in this breed. I'm not putting you down at all but you asked for advice and now I'm giving my advice and opinion on breeding yorkies. If it's not what you want to hear I'm truly sorry BUT it's my opinion and that only. Take it as you want. Truly it's not an ambush but you posted and I'm repsonding "now".
When Mary and I were posting we were off topic from a private conversation between her and I and instead of PM'ing back and forth it was easier typing in this thread. But what has been discussed throughout this thread is very helpful to newbies but not directed towards you personally. Please forgive me if you thought anything was directed at you. I do tend to go off topic within a thread.

Donna

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I'm sorry you thought that I was chuckling at you but I truly wasn't. However, now that you brought it up, as an exhibitor/breeder I would not sell a breeder at 16 weeks old to anyone even a fellow exhibitor. Actually I don't sell any breeding yorkie and if I do they have to be shown "period"!! This isn't anything against newbies but it's how I practice plain and simple. I commend you for having a mentor and researching That is your best advantage in this breed. I'm not putting you down at all but you asked for advice and now I'm giving my advice and opinion on breeding yorkies. If it's not what you want to hear I'm truly sorry BUT it's my opinion and that only. Take it as you want. Truly it's not an ambush but you posted and I'm repsonding "now".
When Mary and I were posting we were off topic from a private conversation between her and I and instead of PM'ing back and forth it was easier typing in this thread. But what has been discussed throughout this thread is very helpful to newbies but not directed towards you personally. Please forgive me if you thought anything was directed at you. I do tend to go off topic within a thread.

Donna

Donna & I were taught and mentored the same way. Both us folllow the same code of ethics and conduct put forth by The YTCA.

I'm sorry that you felt that we were jumping on you, that was never my intention. And I hope that this will not hinder you from posting and asking questions. However, you did ask for advice from experienced breeders and we were offering it. Probably a bit more detailed as we breeder/exhibitors tend to do. At times it's not what we want to hear, but then everyone doesn't do things the same.

[Dixies Mom]

As a breeder who does Bile testing on her Yorkies I would like more information on the unine testing and it's ability to detect Liver Shunts for I have Never seen this or been offer this from my vet.

[SET Yorkies]

I wish we could get the word out to more vets and breeders as most do not use urinalysis as a routine screen.

Urinalysis is simply another line of defense in catching renal failure early in asympotomic puppies and without the concerns of a BAT with regard to small / young puppies. It is routine in our 12 wk check up, if one is already there, why not have a urine sample collected and checked. (One note, however, anything prior to 12 wks is useless as decreased concentration of urine and increased albuminuria are generally due to immature renal function, as those results are considered normal up to the 8th week or so.)

So anyway, as the BAT is more invasive, I like the urinalysis as a starting point. If the USG is off or sediment is abnormal, we proceed from there. If not, we wait until the dog is capable of handling a BAT, and I follow my vet's discretion on that (case by case).

The following is a 2008 clinical pathology report:
Urinary bile acids appear to be more specific (100% specificity) than serum bile acids (pre and/or post-prandial, 67% specificity) for detection of liver disease, although are less sensitive (urinary bile acids, 61% versus serum bile acids, 78% sensitivity). This data suggests that an abnormal (high) urinary bile acid result is compatible with liver insufficiency, cholestasis or portosystemic shunting. However, since the numbers of dogs with non-hepatic disease in this study were small (n=9), if clinical signs do not correspond to test results, further diagnostic testing is recommended. Results within the provided reference interval do not exclude the presence of underlying liver insufficiency or shunting. If clinical signs in the patient are compatible with these liver disorders despite “normal” urinary bile acid values, pre- and post-prandial bile acid concentrations should be obtained.

[Lilyshuman]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

By no means am I chuckling at you....it's not directed at you, actually I'm off topic and high jacked this thread please forgive....

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I'm sorry you thought that I was chuckling at you but I truly wasn't. However, now that you brought it up, as an exhibitor/breeder I would not sell a breeder at 16 weeks old to anyone even a fellow exhibitor. Actually I don't sell any breeding yorkie and if I do they have to be shown "period"!! This isn't anything against newbies but it's how I practice plain and simple. I commend you for having a mentor and researching That is your best advantage in this breed. I'm not putting you down at all but you asked for advice and now I'm giving my advice and opinion on breeding yorkies. If it's not what you want to hear I'm truly sorry BUT it's my opinion and that only. Take it as you want. Truly it's not an ambush but you posted and I'm repsonding "now".
When Mary and I were posting we were off topic from a private conversation between her and I and instead of PM'ing back and forth it was easier typing in this thread. But what has been discussed throughout this thread is very helpful to newbies but not directed towards you personally. Please forgive me if you thought anything was directed at you. I do tend to go off topic within a thread.

Donna

Thank you for clearing the air! Sometimes over the internet and email it is hard to understand someones true meaning!

I am sorry if I over reacted, I just don't want anyone getting the wrong idea about Deb... She didn't promise me anything just said Mia has potential, and she has offered me support anytime. I am grateful to her for giving me a chance and trusting me with her precious baby, so maybe I was overprotective.

I still welcome your advice and will remember your intentions here on out

[Lilyshuman]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Donna & I were taught and mentored the same way. Both us folllow the same code of ethics and conduct put forth by The YTCA.

I'm sorry that you felt that we were jumping on you, that was never my intention. And I hope that this will not hinder you from posting and asking questions. However, you did ask for advice from experienced breeders and we were offering it. Probably a bit more detailed as we breeder/exhibitors tend to do. At times it's not what we want to hear, but then everyone doesn't do things the same.

Thank you for your candor, and as I have said in the above thread I am sorry if I over reacted!

I love the advice I've seen you give on YT and appreciate any I can get!
Please forgive me too

[Amazing Yorkies]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Donna & I were taught and mentored the same way. Both us folllow the same code of ethics and conduct put forth by The YTCA.

I'm sorry that you felt that we were jumping on you, that was never my intention. And I hope that this will not hinder you from posting and asking questions. However, you did ask for advice from experienced breeders and we were offering it. Probably a bit more detailed as we breeder/exhibitors tend to do. At times it's not what we want to hear, but then everyone doesn't do things the same.

Although I'm not a member, I've also studied the code of ethics and conduct put forth by the YTCA. At no time have I read that a Breeder should hold on to a puppy until they are 6 or 7 months old. I find many things, as well as personal preferences are passed down from mentors, and gospel to those that are mentored.
I guess I've been lucky, as I haven't seen my younger puppies fall apart as they get older. I would have many more Bred-by Champions if my husband hadn't gotten Cancer years ago, and hasn't been healthy since. And recently been re-diagnosed, it may be a little longer before I can get out to the show ring on a regular basis. He doesn't do well if I leave him too long or too often, and Cancer is a very expensive disease, not leaving much for motel rooms and traveling. Yet my goal of producing the very best Yorkshire Terrier remains the top of my list. So although I don't have many bred-by Champions, doesn't mean several couldn't have been Champions. I know my dogs, I know my backgrounds, I know my pedigrees, and I know my puppies. I do have a contract as required by the YTCA code of ethics and conduct, and I stand behind every puppy I sell.

To the OP.. Thank you for your trust in me as your Breeder. I would wait until she is a little older for the bile acid test. I also don't like to see one that young fasting. I hope you can rest somewhat assured until that time, as her parents, grandparents, great grandparents and her great, great grandparents have been bile acid tested. As I've already told you, please feel free to contact me at any time. I am always willing to help in any way, whether you purchase from me, or not.

[SET Yorkies]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

Although I'm not a member, I've also studied the code of ethics and conduct put forth by the YTCA. At no time have I read that a Breeder should hold on to a puppy until they are 6 or 7 months old. I find many things, as well as personal preferences are passed down from mentors, and gospel to those that are mentored.
I guess I've been lucky, as I haven't seen my younger puppies fall apart as they get older. I would have many more Bred-by Champions if my husband hadn't gotten Cancer years ago, and hasn't been healthy since. And recently been re-diagnosed, it may be a little longer before I can get out to the show ring on a regular basis. He doesn't do well if I leave him too long or too often, and Cancer is a very expensive disease, not leaving much for motel rooms and traveling. Yet my goal of producing the very best Yorkshire Terrier remains the top of my list. So although I don't have many bred-by Champions, doesn't mean several couldn't have been Champions. I know my dogs, I know my backgrounds, I know my pedigrees, and I know my puppies. I do have a contract as required by the YTCA code of ethics and conduct, and I stand behind every puppy I sell.

Deb,

I'm so sorry to hear about the re-diagnosis.... My husband was diagnosed with Malignant Melanoma in early spring.... Between the surgeries and treatment, it has been a nightmare not to mention extremely expensive both financially and emotionally.... We never know if the next appointment is going to show another indication in another organ... It just goes everywhere.... I find myself feeling just as you do.... I really can't get far from home as he really relies on me for a lot of emotional support, so being out of town for any length of time is just not an option, plus 3 very active kiddos.... My dogs are where I find the most solace... As I’m sure you know all too well, we have to keep our heads up and tears at bay, so lots of days I sit in my dog room and just cry my eyes out… They snuggle up to me and make me feel soooo much better… Working with them is such a productive way to manage the stress!

I had someone on here really slam me for not showing a while back…. I didn’t publically respond, but the point being that we often have no idea what each others’ personal lives are like. It is often an unfortunate rush to judgment.

[lingenieuse]

Nicole,

There is lots of info re Yorkie Health at the YTCA site.The Merck Manual of Vet Med is online.The Atlantic Vet College has a site about Inherited Disorders in dogs,Canine Inherited Disorder Database.And there is a good article about Patellar Luxation at the Papillon club site. You have lots of homework!Carmen Battaglia has a new book about breeding dogs and you should have Anne Seranne's book Breeding your own show dog......

Welcome to Papillon Club of America Inc ~ Health and Genetics website

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

Although I'm not a member, I've also studied the code of ethics and conduct put forth by the YTCA. At no time have I read that a Breeder should hold on to a puppy until they are 6 or 7 months old. I find many things, as well as personal preferences are passed down from mentors, and gospel to those that are mentored.
I guess I've been lucky, as I haven't seen my younger puppies fall apart as they get older. I would have many more Bred-by Champions if my husband hadn't gotten Cancer years ago, and hasn't been healthy since. And recently been re-diagnosed, it may be a little longer before I can get out to the show ring on a regular basis. He doesn't do well if I leave him too long or too often, and Cancer is a very expensive disease, not leaving much for motel rooms and traveling. Yet my goal of producing the very best Yorkshire Terrier remains the top of my list. So although I don't have many bred-by Champions, doesn't mean several couldn't have been Champions. I know my dogs, I know my backgrounds, I know my pedigrees, and I know my puppies. I do have a contract as required by the YTCA code of ethics and conduct, and I stand behind every puppy I sell.

To the OP.. Thank you for your trust in me as your Breeder. I would wait until she is a little older for the bile acid test. I also don't like to see one that young fasting. I hope you can rest somewhat assured until that time, as her parents, grandparents, great grandparents and her great, great grandparents have been bile acid tested. As I've already told you, please feel free to contact me at any time. I am always willing to help in any way, whether you purchase from me, or not.

Deb,

By no means do I want to upset you. However, if you speak to any YTCA breeder and/or the greats, even my own mentor and most have had 40 + years of experience with over 10 generations of Champions, they would never place a breeder/show prior to the age of 6 or 7 months....even longer.

Although, things are not writtin within the YTCA Code of Ethics and Conduct their are many unspoken rules that we do follow.....

Not everyone does things the same way, it's just they way I do thinggs. As Donna stated I would never place a dog on open registration until 6 or 7 months of age or more with anyone, even a fellow exhibitor, then I would expect it to be Championed. It would have to be I dog that I would keep in my breeding program, since it's my reputation on the line.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Amazing Yorkies

Although I'm not a member, I've also studied the code of ethics and conduct put forth by the YTCA. At no time have I read that a Breeder should hold on to a puppy until they are 6 or 7 months old. I find many things, as well as personal preferences are passed down from mentors, and gospel to those that are mentored.
I guess I've been lucky, as I haven't seen my younger puppies fall apart as they get older. I would have many more Bred-by Champions if my husband hadn't gotten Cancer years ago, and hasn't been healthy since. And recently been re-diagnosed, it may be a little longer before I can get out to the show ring on a regular basis. He doesn't do well if I leave him too long or too often, and Cancer is a very expensive disease, not leaving much for motel rooms and traveling. Yet my goal of producing the very best Yorkshire Terrier remains the top of my list. So although I don't have many bred-by Champions, doesn't mean several couldn't have been Champions. I know my dogs, I know my backgrounds, I know my pedigrees, and I know my puppies. I do have a contract as required by the YTCA code of ethics and conduct, and I stand behind every puppy I sell.

To the OP.. Thank you for your trust in me as your Breeder. I would wait until she is a little older for the bile acid test. I also don't like to see one that young fasting. I hope you can rest somewhat assured until that time, as her parents, grandparents, great grandparents and her great, great grandparents have been bile acid tested. As I've already told you, please feel free to contact me at any time. I am always willing to help in any way, whether you purchase from me, or not.

Deb,

As Mary just stated, this is by no means at least for me and Mary directed at you. The OP's first post asked for advice and there was never a mention of your name in her first and orginal post so I was responding to her first intinal post. And I also stated this is my practice when I responded to her so therefore there wasn't anything directed at you or any other breeder here on YT. Everyone that knows me whether it be here or the outside world knows my feelings on what my showing and breeding practices are. I apologize if you or anyone thought it was directed at them as again this is how I practice and do things. Most YTCA breeders do not let go of their yorkies at 16 weeks of age for breeding purposes. Also, most YTCA members will not let go of yorkies without a co-ownership and the intentions of showing especially if they are going to be bred.
Again, what I post or type is strictly how I do things and practice things and is in NO way directed at anyone because "everyone" does things their own way
I'm sorry to hear about your husband. He and you will be in my prayers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Lilyshuman

Thank you for clearing the air! Sometimes over the internet and email it is hard to understand someones true meaning!

I am sorry if I over reacted, I just don't want anyone getting the wrong idea about Deb... She didn't promise me anything just said Mia has potential, and she has offered me support anytime. I am grateful to her for giving me a chance and trusting me with her precious baby, so maybe I was overprotective.

I still welcome your advice and will remember your intentions here on out

Thank you for understanding I didn't get the wrong idea about Deb. We just have differences in our program I'm so glad she is supporting you in this new endeavor and being there for you as I knew/know she would/will be. It's ok to be over protective as we all should be about our yorkies/pets.

Again, thanks for being kind in your responses

Donna