Need any kind of advice!

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

"Tone" is an impossible thing to determine when things are typed and not written. Maybe instead of worrying about who is using the appropriate "tone"--something which no one here reserves the right to control--people should worry about the questions being asked and the information and answers being given. It baffles me every time I see answers given and people get beside themselves because regardless of what info was provided, heaven forbid it be worded in a way that others didn't approve of.


Many of the responses you received were not because you couldn't adequately explain yourself...it was point blank because of some of the things you said that people didn't agree with. Also, it wasn't as "personal" as you seemed to have taken it. Any given person here--new or old member alike--would get the same kind of replies if they posted what you did with the same conviction behind their words.

I was green, totally clueless. people accused me of having done things, and I wasn't even a breeder. I asked a question about something I read in a bolok. I still have the book and could give you the page and paragraph. I was raised on a farm. Life and death happened. Nature happened. I had nol idea that I would get that response.They were vicious. But like I said a few people understood.

I was trying to learn, what does a breeder do in that situation. Fortunately I have not had to make those decisions.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

LOL...that sounds like a good outlook to me. I think that there are lessons to be learned from any situation that comes up, any outlook or frame of mind one seems to have--both the good and the bad.

For what it's worth, there are many scenarios that have been discussed on here that YOU have really made me think about. Some things my opinions have been changed on because of YOUR posts. I could say the same thing for so so so many members here. Sometimes, examining another person's perspective on things is the best way to solidify or reconsider your own stance on things.

Thank You. It means a lot to me to hear that from you because I have always respected you, even if we have not always been on the same side of the fence.

[livingdustmops]

This is what bothers me...someone comes here and asks one questions about breeding and someone gives the answer immediately without even asking any questions. I believe if people really want to educate people on proper breeding then the question HAS TO BE ASKED why do you want to breed. I could show other threads where people were outraged at some of the breeding practices but when members have an opportunity to at least get this person to think they don't. In this case it was obvious the OP didn't have a clue, got a fast answer and was gone...just what do you think will happen to mom and/or the pups?

You can say all you want about rescue but each breeder has to look themselves in the eyes and see if they are adding to the problem of poorly bred dogs and in this case there is a big potential this is what is going to happen.

For every breeder that says they love this breed then I feel you have a hugh responsibility to encourage good breeding and discourage poor breeding and please....don't tell me they will go someplace else and get the answer...let them if they don't want to learn. Stick up for the dogs.

[topknot]

I think that is right - We do need to ask them why they want to breed! As a forum going in the right direction, we are responsible for what questions we answer. This OP got her answer right away and went away to avoid answering and really learning. Sounds like she only wanted to breed her pet - a male of 7 pounds. Think about what pups she will then produce. Have we done her justice, better yet, have we done our breed standard right? We need to make sure we inform all people asking the questions here on YT - that we inform responsibly. And I need to add - does she know the dangers now involved in breeding? No, since she did not stay around long enough to find out. Hopefully she learned somewhere else. If not - she may buy that 5 - 6 female, breed to her 7 pound male and might loose her female and then think about YT and the answer she got. We need to make sure all people that come on here asking questions are completely informed and educated as best we can.

I have been breeding for 27 years. Well, my champion girl just had a c-section and had 3 pups. Wait!! In 2.5 days after the c-section I have lost 2 of the pups. Not my girl's fault, not vet's fault, things just happened beyond our control. Was I prepared? Yes, I know the worst that can happen. At least my girl is doing fine and cross my fingers the one pup left is doing okay. Have I had much sleep in the late 50 hours? No! I did everything I could to have these pups survive. I was educated and had the training - yet this happened. This is why I hate breeding. My male is just barely 4 pounds and my female is 5.5 pounds. Pedigree on this litter was to die for - very nice! Both parents - very, very nice and grandparents and the great grandparents some of the best in US. Just believe me - this was very nice breeding. I did my homework and bred responsibly. I had mentors in the past and still do. Still things happen. I am lucky since I have the help, direction from others, and education and training. This OP person does not and nor did we give it.

Reason for my girl's c-section -The first pup was sideways into both horns and mom had gone into early labor. Unfortunely, 2 of the three pups lungs were not yet developed all the way. Her due date from the first breeding should have been this Sunday. She went into labor this Wed. Mom also had a very difficult time coming out of anesthia - the first 10 hours after surgery was bad. I had to stay by her side and watch her so clsely. I did my research, had knoweldge and still this happened.

What we must do here is inform correctly and be responsible for the information we give as well as ask the people that are asking the needed questions - ask them the important questions so we can inform correctly. We have Way Too Many people coming on here wanting to breed their pet Fifi to Mr. Stud Muffin who belongs to their realative or friend or they went out and bought a pup of a different sex with intentions to breed the two and they have no clue what they would be doing. Let's be responsible and give correct and appropriate answers and ask the needed questions.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

This is what bothers me...someone comes here and asks one questions about breeding and someone gives the answer immediately without even asking any questions. I believe if people really want to educate people on proper breeding then the question HAS TO BE ASKED why do you want to breed. I could show other threads where people were outraged at some of the breeding practices but when members have an opportunity to at least get this person to think they don't. In this case it was obvious the OP didn't have a clue, got a fast answer and was gone...just what do you think will happen to mom and/or the pups?

You can say all you want about rescue but each breeder has to look themselves in the eyes and see if they are adding to the problem of poorly bred dogs and in this case there is a big potential this is what is going to happen.

For every breeder that says they love this breed then I feel you have a hugh responsibility to encourage good breeding and discourage poor breeding and please....don't tell me they will go someplace else and get the answer...let them if they don't want to learn. Stick up for the dogs.

You make a very good point there. And I will start asking more questions. I have seen the people change their minds and decide not to breed once they found out it wasn't what they thought it was going to be.

But I think the person should be given a chance to answer the question befor going into "if you think, blah blah, if you just want to make money, blah blah blah."

Let them first answer so you know what is going on in their mind. Otherwise they immediately get on the defensive.

You can say what you want about us hobby breeders but we do produce nice puppies and take some of the business away from the puppy mills.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

I think that is right - We do need to ask them why they want to breed! As a forum going in the right direction, we are responsible for what questions we answer. This OP got her answer right away and went away to avoid answering and really learning. Sounds like she only wanted to breed her pet - a male of 7 pounds. Think about what pups she will then produce. Have we done her justice, better yet, have we done our breed standard right? We need to make sure we inform all people asking the questions here on YT - that we inform responsibly. And I need to add - does she know the dangers now involved in breeding? No, since she did not stay around long enough to find out. Hopefully she learned somewhere else. If not - she may buy that 5 - 6 female, breed to her 7 pound male and might loose her female and then think about YT and the answer she got. We need to make sure all people that come on here asking questions are completely informed and educated as best we can.

I have been breeding for 27 years. Well, my champion girl just had a c-section and had 3 pups. Wait!! In 2.5 days after the c-section I have lost 2 of the pups. Not my girl's fault, not vet's fault, things just happened beyond our control. Was I prepared? Yes, I know the worst that can happen. At least my girl is doing fine and cross my fingers the one pup left is doing okay. Have I had much sleep in the late 50 hours? No! I did everything I could to have these pups survive. I was educated and had the training - yet this happened. This is why I hate breeding. My male is just barely 4 pounds and my female is 5.5 pounds. Pedigree on this litter was to die for - very nice! Both parents - very, very nice and grandparents and the great grandparents some of the best in US. Just believe me - this was very nice breeding. I did my homework and bred responsibly. I had mentors in the past and still do. Still things happen. I am lucky since I have the help, direction from others, and education and training. This OP person does not and nor did we give it.

Reason for my girl's c-section -The first pup was sideways into both horns and mom had gone into early labor. Unfortunely, 2 of the three pups lungs were not yet developed all the way. Her due date from the first breeding should have been this Sunday. She went into labor this Wed. Mom also had a very difficult time coming out of anesthia - the first 10 hours after surgery was bad. I had to stay by her side and watch her so clsely. I did my research, had knoweldge and still this happened.

What we must do here is inform correctly and be responsible for the information we give as well as ask the people that are asking the needed questions - ask them the important questions so we can inform correctly. We have Way Too Many people coming on here wanting to breed their pet Fifi to Mr. Stud Muffin who belongs to their realative or friend or they went out and bought a pup of a different sex with intentions to breed the two and they have no clue what they would be doing. Let's be responsible and give correct and appropriate answers and ask the needed questions.

So much to learn and continue learning. You can take every precaution, have all the necessary meds and equipment in place. Then out of left field; zap another zinger.

I just went through what you went through my girl went into labor on her
57th day of her first breeding, whelped on the 58th. When the puppies began to enter the world, I knew they were preemie, by the color of their coats, feet and noses. She had concieved on her 2nd breeding. I lost 2 puppies, one in the first 24 hours, the 2nd in the first week. You do everything you know how to do, fading puppy recipe, Sub-Qing them....everything but, it doesn't prepare you to see mom panicking, stimulating and watching a pup die.

I learned alot about preemies from this experience. They are a bit slower in developement, they lag behind about 3 to 5 days......Something that I'd never encountered before; I knew that puppies open their eyes between 10 and 17 days.....one of the ones that lived didn't open his until day 21.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

So much to learn and continue learning. You can take every precaution, have all the necessary meds and equipment in place. Then out of left field; zap another zinger.

I just went through what you went through my girl went into labor on her
57th day of her first breeding, whelped on the 58th. When the puppies began to enter the world, I knew they were preemie, by the color of their coats, feet and noses. She had concieved on her 2nd breeding. I lost 2 puppies, one in the first 24 hours, the 2nd in the first week. You do everything you know how to do, fading puppy recipe, Sub-Qing them....everything but, it doesn't prepare you to see mom panicking, stimulating and watching a pup die.

I learned alot about preemies from this experience. They are a bit slower in developement, they lag behind about 3 to 5 days......Something that I'd never encountered before; I knew that puppies open their eyes between 10 and 17 days.....one of the ones that lived didn't open his until day 21.

Yes, always learning and still more to learn no matter how many years or how much experienced.
I think this litter was preemies too. The coats - big give away. I have never experience. They reminded me of mice.
Yes, just like you, I lost the first one - sweet little girl (weighing 2 oz) in the first 24 hours and then the boy (weighed 3 oz) all of a sudden went for the worse yesterday and started gettng weak and not nursing. He had been nursing the first day and was the strongest. Such a turn around. The last one - a girl (weighing 2.5 oz) has been hanging in there. She did not nurse on her own when she was 24 hours old, but now will go for it. I do have to hold her in place since her head moves around some much at certain times and do not want her to let go of nipple. That was frustrating for her and me. Then I have to make sure mom is quite and not move, so this little one can get all she wants.
So for those deciding that you want to breed - be ready, for anything can happen, even the worse.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by topknot

I think that is right - We do need to ask them why they want to breed! As a forum going in the right direction, we are responsible for what questions we answer. This OP got her answer right away and went away to avoid answering and really learning. Sounds like she only wanted to breed her pet - a male of 7 pounds. Think about what pups she will then produce. Have we done her justice, better yet, have we done our breed standard right? We need to make sure we inform all people asking the questions here on YT - that we inform responsibly. And I need to add - does she know the dangers now involved in breeding? No, since she did not stay around long enough to find out. Hopefully she learned somewhere else. If not - she may buy that 5 - 6 female, breed to her 7 pound male and might loose her female and then think about YT and the answer she got. We need to make sure all people that come on here asking questions are completely informed and educated as best we can.

I have been breeding for 27 years. Well, my champion girl just had a c-section and had 3 pups. Wait!! In 2.5 days after the c-section I have lost 2 of the pups. Not my girl's fault, not vet's fault, things just happened beyond our control. Was I prepared? Yes, I know the worst that can happen. At least my girl is doing fine and cross my fingers the one pup left is doing okay. Have I had much sleep in the late 50 hours? No! I did everything I could to have these pups survive. I was educated and had the training - yet this happened. This is why I hate breeding. My male is just barely 4 pounds and my female is 5.5 pounds. Pedigree on this litter was to die for - very nice! Both parents - very, very nice and grandparents and the great grandparents some of the best in US. Just believe me - this was very nice breeding. I did my homework and bred responsibly. I had mentors in the past and still do. Still things happen. I am lucky since I have the help, direction from others, and education and training. This OP person does not and nor did we give it.

Reason for my girl's c-section -The first pup was sideways into both horns and mom had gone into early labor. Unfortunely, 2 of the three pups lungs were not yet developed all the way. Her due date from the first breeding should have been this Sunday. She went into labor this Wed. Mom also had a very difficult time coming out of anesthia - the first 10 hours after surgery was bad. I had to stay by her side and watch her so clsely. I did my research, had knoweldge and still this happened.

What we must do here is inform correctly and be responsible for the information we give as well as ask the people that are asking the needed questions - ask them the important questions so we can inform correctly. We have Way Too Many people coming on here wanting to breed their pet Fifi to Mr. Stud Muffin who belongs to their realative or friend or they went out and bought a pup of a different sex with intentions to breed the two and they have no clue what they would be doing. Let's be responsible and give correct and appropriate answers and ask the needed questions.

Very good arguments.

I think that coming on too strong is not good, it just runs them off and they won't learn anything. but too weak is not good either, because as you pointed out, they get their answer and leave.

So I think we can agree thate questions need to be asked.
Our responses should be strraight forward, but not over powering
And arguments between YTrs do not belong in those threads.
Our egos should get in the way of the best interest of the dogs.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

So much to learn and continue learning. You can take every precaution, have all the necessary meds and equipment in place. Then out of left field; zap another zinger.

I just went through what you went through my girl went into labor on her
57th day of her first breeding, whelped on the 58th. When the puppies began to enter the world, I knew they were preemie, by the color of their coats, feet and noses. She had concieved on her 2nd breeding. I lost 2 puppies, one in the first 24 hours, the 2nd in the first week. You do everything you know how to do, fading puppy recipe, Sub-Qing them....everything but, it doesn't prepare you to see mom panicking, stimulating and watching a pup die.

I learned alot about preemies from this experience. They are a bit slower in developement, they lag behind about 3 to 5 days......Something that I'd never encountered before; I knew that puppies open their eyes between 10 and 17 days.....one of the ones that lived didn't open his until day 21.

Good information. But I have had entire litters of nice healthy puppies that did not open their eyes until the 21st day.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

Yes, always learning and still more to learn no matter how many years or how much experienced.
I think this litter was preemies too. The coats - big give away. I have never experience. They reminded me of mice.
Yes, just like you, I lost the first one - sweet little girl (weighing 2 oz) in the first 24 hours and then the boy (weighed 3 oz) all of a sudden went for the worse yesterday and started gettng weak and not nursing. He had been nursing the first day and was the strongest. Such a turn around. The last one - a girl (weighing 2.5 oz) has been hanging in there. She did not nurse on her own when she was 24 hours old, but now will go for it. I do have to hold her in place since her head moves around some much at certain times and do not want her to let go of nipple. That was frustrating for her and me. Then I have to make sure mom is quite and not move, so this little one can get all she wants.
So for those deciding that you want to breed - be ready, for anything can happen, even the worse.

The other thing was the white toe nails.....they've now turned black. Two of the four are great so far. They will be 8 weeks on Tuesday (although physically I know they're about a week younger) Although, I thought I was going to lose the girl....We've named her Faith, Her registered name is going to be Touch N Go....The boy we've named Beauford...he's a fat lil rolly polly.

The one thing I'm going to invest in is an oxygen tent, don't know if that would have helped, but I think I'd like to keep it in my arsenal.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Very good arguments.

I think that coming on too strong is not good, it just runs them off and they won't learn anything. but too weak is not good either, because as you pointed out, they get their answer and leave.

So I think we can agree thate questions need to be asked.
Our responses should be strraight forward, but not over powering
And arguments between YTrs do not belong in those threads.
Our egos should get in the way of the best interest of the dogs.

Our interest should always be our dogs' interest as top priority. I also like include our breed standard as well. And we should not be too strong. I always try my best to be polite and helpful. I always remembered how I started and not for the patience and kindness of others well experienced I would not be where I am today. My first breeding ever was to a wonderful champion and I was just a pet person (novice) that wanted to do the best I could and if I was going to breed I better breed the best I could. My girl passed the evaluation and I learned so much. I learned and listen to the pros. Listening is most important!

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by topknot

Yes, always learning and still more to learn no matter how many years or how much experienced.
I think this litter was preemies too. The coats - big give away. I have never experience. They reminded me of mice.
Yes, just like you, I lost the first one - sweet little girl (weighing 2 oz) in the first 24 hours and then the boy (weighed 3 oz) all of a sudden went for the worse yesterday and started gettng weak and not nursing. He had been nursing the first day and was the strongest. Such a turn around. The last one - a girl (weighing 2.5 oz) has been hanging in there. She did not nurse on her own when she was 24 hours old, but now will go for it. I do have to hold her in place since her head moves around some much at certain times and do not want her to let go of nipple. That was frustrating for her and me. Then I have to make sure mom is quite and not move, so this little one can get all she wants.
So for those deciding that you want to breed - be ready, for anything can happen, even the worse.

I had one little guy whos head flopped fback and forth too. I would make sure he got 5 minutes alone on the choice nipple before I let the others nurse. There were 5 in the litter and it was unbelievable how strong they were when it came to pushing their way through to a nipple.

I sat with that baby every two hours for two weeks, to make sure he got to eat.

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

The one thing I'm going to invest in is an oxygen tent, don't know if that would have helped, but I think I'd like to keep it in my arsenal.

My hubby and I were thinking the same thing (oxygen tent) .

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by topknot

Our interest should always be our dogs' interest as top priority. I also like include our breed standard as well. And we should not be too strong. I always try my best to be polite and helpful. I always remembered how I started and not for the patience and kindness of others well experienced I would not be where I am today. My first breeding ever was to a wonderful champion and I was just a pet person (novice) that wanted to do the best I could and if I was going to breed I better breed the best I could. My girl passed the evaluation and I learned so much. I learned and listen to the pros. Listening is most important!

A person first has to admit that they don't know, before they can learn. I too wanted to learn, if not, I would have left after that first post because many were unkind.

But the few that took the time to answer my questions were wonderful.. even just letting me know that I needed a 'go to" person that would help me and answer my questions.

The sad part is, that there are many questions that I do not ask on YT because I am afraid of being flamed.

There are people who will twist everything one says and bash you for asking a question. Like they were born knowing everything about breeding.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by topknot

My hubby and I were thinking the same thing (oxygen tent) .

Revival has a nice one.....price isn't bad either...then I've got to find a med supply around here that I can get oxygen from.