What should I do regarding breeder?

[TLC]

Here is my LP story and I have no doubt it is Genetic.

Roxy and TJ (same father - different mothers)

Roxy was 9 months when I started to hear the click in both her legs. Vet confirmed LP. I saw 2 Ortho Specialist who confirmed LP. Roxy had surgery. He rear legs had a slight curvature to the bone structure. Both grooves were very shallow. One knee cap was facing the wrong way.

TJ has LP too - Thankfully he shows no signs of pain or discomfort.

My groomer has 2 girls (same parents as Roxy) - Both girls have LP

I have come in contact with another person that has a girl from the same breeder (same father as all the above - different mother) - and yes the pup had LP too

**********

So we have 5 pups ALL have LP in both legs
(Same father for all 5 pups - 3 different mothers)

What I have learned about LP is this. In most cases, they can not say LP is genetic for sure, bc most cases the pup isn't actually born with the patella luxating at that moment. BUT the genetic makeup (bone structure, groove, etc.) is all set up for the patella (at some point) to start to luxate. Get it
I honestly think it is a sucky thing that a lot of breeders just get a free pass for

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Dee, personally I would have them OFA'ed before breeding of course. I've had one puppy as young as 3 months to 6 months have tight knees and then after a year to almost 2 end up with a grade 2 LP. As in my Harvey. I'm sure his is genetic but it didn't show up until after he was over 16 months old. But his mother has LP but developed them after a year old so since mom and son have LP I'm going to say genetic. Harvey and Brookie had tight knees at 6 to 12 months old. LP is very hard but when a puppy under the age of 1 has LP upon examination I wouldn't breed them of course. After a year it can be caused from injury and that is why LP is so hard again as some have posted. In my contract I will cover LP up to one year if it's a grade 4 by one year of age. Both my Harvey and Brookie have up to grade 3's but I have maintained weight and control of jumping and haven't had a problem with them in over year since maintaining weight control. I will not have surgery on either yorkie unless they show any signs of pain and intolerance to the LP. It's a very painful surgery and if I can avoid it I will unless ABSOLUTELY necessary

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Donna, my adults have been checked but no official paper. i was thinking it would be nice to have it done every puppy that leaves here. That is why i was wondering what would be a good age. I wonder if a test on a 12-16 week old puppy is accurate.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by TLC

Here is my LP story and I have no doubt it is Genetic.

Roxy and TJ (same father - different mothers)

Roxy was 9 months when I started to hear the click in both her legs. Vet confirmed LP. I saw 2 Ortho Specialist who confirmed LP. Roxy had surgery. He rear legs had a slight curvature to the bone structure. Both grooves were very shallow. One knee cap was facing the wrong way.

TJ has LP too - Thankfully he shows no signs of pain or discomfort.

My groomer has 2 girls (same parents as Roxy) - Both girls have LP

I have come in contact with another person that has a girl from the same breeder (same father as all the above - different mother) - and yes the pup had LP too

**********

So we have 5 pups ALL have LP in both legs
(Same father for all 5 pups - 3 different mothers)

What I have learned about LP is this. In most cases, they can not say LP is genetic for sure, bc most cases the pup isn't actually born with the patella luxating at that moment. BUT the genetic makeup (bone structure, groove, etc.) is all set up for the patella (at some point) to start to luxate. Get it
I honestly think it is a sucky thing that a lot of breeders just get a free pass for

Yes, I would for sure agree it's genetic in this case and of course in my case and yes both are spayed and neutered I believe LP can be genetic and can be caused by injury but when you see a pattern with pups and parents with LP of course it's genetic, it' what you do when you discover it's genetic what you do about your ethics with your breeding program
Those that you say get a free pass don't care about what they are breeding unfortunately but those that are responsible and reputable I don't think take that free pass

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

Donna, my adults have been checked but no official paper. i was thinking it would be nice to have it done every puppy that leaves here. That is why i was wondering what would be a good age. I wonder if a test on a 12-16 week old puppy is accurate.

I always have mine checked by the vet before placing into a pet home and normally the knees are tight. IF they were loose at that age I wouldn't be placing them until later or have an agreement with the new buyer to watch and see what happens when they reach a year old as to the grade of LP and then decide after that. I believe an examination can be correct at 12 to 16 weeks. But remember even puppies running around can injure themselves so really hard to determine if it would be genetic or caused by injury. I personally would watch and see with the new owners and go from there.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I always have mine checked by the vet before placing into a pet home and normally the knees are tight. IF they were loose at that age I wouldn't be placing them until later or have an agreement with the new buyer to watch and see what happens when they reach a year old as to the grade of LP and then decide after that. I believe an examination can be correct at 12 to 16 weeks. But remember even puppies running around can injure themselves so really hard to determine if it would be genetic or caused by injury. I personally would watch and see with the new owners and go from there.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

my vet does everything when I take them in for their final visit before they leave, but it would be nice to get the form filled out and send it in to the place mentioned above and perhaps give new parents a copy along with the regular health certificate I provide.. That's what I was thinking.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

my vet does everything when I take them in for their final visit before they leave, but it would be nice to get the form filled out and send it in to the place mentioned above and perhaps give new parents a copy along with the regular health certificate I provide.. That's what I was thinking.

You can't certify them until they are over 12 months old and that's because their bones are still growing. They have boxes to check according to age but I don't think you can actually certify them until they are older. I wouldn't even consider certifying them until they reach maturity.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[topknot]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

You can't certify them until they are over 12 months old and that's because their bones are still growing. They have boxes to check according to age but I don't think you can actually certify them until they are older. I wouldn't even consider certifying them until they reach maturity.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

This is so true. Also to do the x-ray to check, the vet must put them under to be able to manipulate them into position to take the x-ray. They first lay upside down in a V-shaped tray on their backs. The legs must be in the right position and tied so they stay in that position. First set of x-rays are taken.
Then they must the rotate them flat on the table to their side and another photo is taken. During this whole time - the dog cannot move or the x-ray will either not be readable or not in the right position to check. Then the vet must be trained to know how to read the x-rays. In some cases it takes someone that specializes in this.
When a vet feels the knees - the joint must not be too tight or too loose. I call it the Goldlocks test - the knees must feel just right.
I hope this helps.
T.

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by topknot

This is so true. Also to do the x-ray to check, the vet must put them under to be able to manipulate them into position to take the x-ray. They first lay upside down in a V-shaped tray on their backs. The legs must be in the right position and tied so they stay in that position. First set of x-rays are taken.
Then they must the rotate them flat on the table to their side and another photo is taken. During this whole time - the dog cannot move or the x-ray will either not be readable or not in the right position to check. Then the vet must be trained to know how to read the x-rays. In some cases it takes someone that specializes in this.
When a vet feels the knees - the joint must not be too tight or too loose. I call it the Goldlocks test - the knees must feel just right.
I hope this helps.
T.

According to this no x-rays are used. (copied and pasted from an above post)

The exam for OFA for patellas is a manual exam performed by a regular vet. No xrays are used. It is not the same as OFA'ing hips. Just an FYI. Here is the form for having patella's OFA'd: http://www.offa.org/plappbw.pdf

Tghanks and I just found on the form that it is for dogs over 12 months.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

According to this no x-rays are used. (copied and pasted from an above post)

The exam for OFA for patellas is a manual exam performed by a regular vet. No xrays are used. It is not the same as OFA'ing hips. Just an FYI. Here is the form for having patella's OFA'd: http://www.offa.org/plappbw.pdf

This is the form that accompanies the X-rays. I thought X-rays were involved in patellas and Tina confirmed it for me. I, also, just called my vet and he confirmed that OFA'ing patellas do require X-rays to certify.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

This is the form that accompanies the X-rays. I thought X-rays were involved in patellas and Tina confirmed it for me. I, also, just called my vet and he confirmed that OFA'ing patellas do require X-rays to certify.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Diagnosing Patellar Luxation

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Examination and Certification

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The dog is examined awake (chemical restraint is not recommended) and classified by the attending veterinarian according to the application and general information instructions. The veterinarian then completes the application form indicating the the results of the dog's patella evaluation.

The application and fee can then be mailed to OFA. The attending veterinarian and owner is encouraged to submit all evaluations, whether normal or abnormal, for the purpose of completeness of data. There is no OFA fee for entering an abnormal evaluation of the patella in the data bank.

A breed database number will be issued to all dogs found to be normal at 12 months of age or older. The breed database number will contain the age at evaluation and it is recommended that dogs be periodically reexamined as some luxations will not be evident until later in life.

Preliminary Evaluations

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Evaluation of dogs under 12 months of age is encouraged if the owner desires to breed at this age. The most opportune time to gather breeding data is at 6-8 weeks of age prior to the puppy's release to the new owner.



This is what I found out from the OFA website....I just called my vet again after this again and he said that he prefers an X-ray to help with his diagnosis.....I would feel more confident in an X-ray...and do hips along with it I hope this clarifies OFA'ing the patellas

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

What age would think would be good to have it done since most vets are under the impression that ALL puppies have loose knees to a degree. This is something I would be interested in doing on all puppies.

I have knees checked on all puppies at 12 weeks old-- whether they are staying or going to new homes. The exam is done by my vet and it is the same thing they do for OFA but I don't do the forms or pay the OFA fee. In my pap puppies I have had loose knees on two puppies at 12 weeks-- each had one loose knee. By they time they were at the vet for rabies vaccine at 6 mos the knees were tight. Same father, different mothers. One has been spayed and at 3 years old her knees are still tight, the other lives with me and I will have her checked at her first annual exam and on her second annual exam before I would ever consider breeding her.

I have my vet check knees whenever they are there, so annually or more frequently if they happen to be there for a dental or something, and I have him chart the checks. If I were to register the checks with the OFA forms I would probably do it at a pre-breeding check (when they get their brucellosis test). For a male offered to the public for breeding I would register new results annually.

LP is something that should (in an ideal world) be fairly easy to eliminate in a breeding program because it is something that you can usually-- there are always exceptions-- find before breeding a dog, unlike some other heritable conditions (mitral valve degeneration found in many toy breeds comes to mind) that don't emerge until they are mid to old age. However, I have heard of LP showing up in a puppy whose parents, grandparents, siblings and half sibs are perfectly fine, so "flukes" do happen even with the most careful of breeding programs.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

This is the form that accompanies the X-rays. I thought X-rays were involved in patellas and Tina confirmed it for me. I, also, just called my vet and he confirmed that OFA'ing patellas do require X-rays to certify.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

If you look at the apps, hips, elbows and legg-calve-perthes all require x-rays. The application for knees does not. I was at a clinic where they were clearing knees and it was just a manual exam but maybe it has changed, that was about 2.5 yrs ago so I could be behind the times. Either way they are pretty easy to detect via a physical exam so personally I would err on the safe side and would not breed anything with loose knees at breeding age. I am extra paranoid as my dogs do agility and obedience so knee stability is a huge concern for me.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by wildcard

I have knees checked on all puppies at 12 weeks old-- whether they are staying or going to new homes. The exam is done by my vet and it is the same thing they do for OFA but I don't do the forms or pay the OFA fee. In my pap puppies I have had loose knees on two puppies at 12 weeks-- each had one loose knee. By they time they were at the vet for rabies vaccine at 6 mos the knees were tight. Same father, different mothers. One has been spayed and at 3 years old her knees are still tight, the other lives with me and I will have her checked at her first annual exam and on her second annual exam before I would ever consider breeding her.

I have my vet check knees whenever they are there, so annually or more frequently if they happen to be there for a dental or something, and I have him chart the checks. If I were to register the checks with the OFA forms I would probably do it at a pre-breeding check (when they get their brucellosis test). For a male offered to the public for breeding I would register new results annually.

LP is something that should (in an ideal world) be fairly easy to eliminate in a breeding program because it is something that you can usually-- there are always exceptions-- find before breeding a dog, unlike some other heritable conditions (mitral valve degeneration found in many toy breeds comes to mind) that don't emerge until they are mid to old age. However, I have heard of LP showing up in a puppy whose parents, grandparents, siblings and half sibs are perfectly fine, so "flukes" do happen even with the most careful of breeding programs.

I, also, have patellas checked at all vet visits even on my old guys. I just need to have the forms filled out for my male Radar (which will be done when he returns from Canada). My male isn't up for public stud but I do keep his patellas checked frequently as he does love to jump like a rabbit most of the time. I've been lucky as to have kept the pups that have LP. I've had only one puppy I placed that has LP and had the surgery and is doing fine. That line has been stopped and with Radar he has good knees thank goodness

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by wildcard

If you look at the apps, hips, elbows and legg-calve-perthes all require x-rays. The application for knees does not. I was at a clinic where they were clearing knees and it was just a manual exam but maybe it has changed, that was about 2.5 yrs ago so I could be behind the times. Either way they are pretty easy to detect via a physical exam so personally I would err on the safe side and would not breed anything with loose knees at breeding age. I am extra paranoid as my dogs do agility and obedience so knee stability is a huge concern for me.

I always admire the agility dogs I have one here at home that could do it but I'm into conformation right now but I do plan on getting involved in that one day. Yes, having good knees are a must
My vet does X-rays also, but so far I've only done the manual exams on knees.

Donna

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I always admire the agility dogs I have one here at home that could do it but I'm into conformation right now but I do plan on getting involved in that one day. Yes, having good knees are a must
My vet does X-rays also, but so far I've only done the manual exams on knees.

Donna

Oh now don't hold him back lol! We do conformation as well-- however it is a lot easier to keep up one single yorkie coat and lots of papillon coats (not nearly as much work) than it would be to keep up multiple show yorkies. I don't know if I could do good coat care on multiple yorkies and still have tome for the other stuff, that would be tough.

The nice thing about agility is that you can actually make a lot of progress very quickly even just doing one lesson a week. It isn't like obedience (I do that too) which you have to work on multiple times a week. You should try it out! I just started our yorkie on the equipment this past week and he initially thought I was nuts-- but then he found out there was food involved and viola, he was extremely enthusiastic.