Allert all indiana breeders

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by jeanief

I have no problem with record keeping, thats a must. I however think we have bigger fish to fry , than a breeder breeding 10 litters. There are so many big mills out there and stay in business with just a slap on the wrist or nothing at all. I don't think they would register as breeder or commercial breeder. They would do their businees and hope they don't get caught. You want to get a eye opener? I am also going to give you a address of a legal puppymill that houses 500-600 dogs in my state. This is totally legal ! When you see the air photo/birds eye view, it looks like a cattle or horse barn. Nope, it's a dog breeding mill ( IMO) thats legal. Go to live search maps, then type in 1805 Riverview RD, little falls, MN. He was going to bebark them all , but the neighbors thought that was cruel, so instead he keeps them inside ALL THE TIME so the neighbors don't hear the 500 dogs bark. The laws that need to be addressed are dogs not being housed or treated like cattle ! All these pups go to pet stores all over the US. You want to have to have a drink? Go look for yourself, and then pass a few shots of tequila to me please.

I agree with you completely that there are 'bigger fish to fry'. Just take a look at Petland. They have over 140 stores in the country. Using a conservative figure of average store sales being 2 pups per day, that works out to over 100,000 dogs a year, and that's just Petland. There's also the smaller pet shops, websites from commercial breeders/brokers and the fake rescues (no relation to the genuine rescues) that are outlets for these mega-breeders. Add them all up and you're tlaking about a huge number of dogs. The breeders supplying dogs for these outlets are the real problem.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I agree with you completely that there are 'bigger fish to fry'. Just take a look at Petland. They have over 140 stores in the country. Using a conservative figure of average store sales being 2 pups per day, that works out to over 100,000 dogs a year, and that's just Petland. There's also the smaller pet shops, websites from commercial breeders/brokers and the fake rescues (no relation to the genuine rescues) that are outlets for these mega-breeders. Add them all up and you're tlaking about a huge number of dogs. The breeders supplying dogs for these outlets are the real problem.

Petland is similar to the Hunte Corporation, and both buy their puppies from numerous commercial kennels. Petland sell directly from its stores, whereas the Hunte corporation sells to many pet stores across the nation. Most pet stores buy through brokers; brokers buy from the puppy mills. The brokers are the ones who are making the most out of pet sells, and they are ones with the most powerful lobbies. It sounds like some of you believe if we up the limit to 20 litters or more we can stop some of the bigger fish. This is simply not true. The big fish buy from "little fish". Here's a video of the Hunte Corp who says that that they inspect the breeders facilities and,

"Only the best breeders who meet our exacting standards of breed quality, health, nutrition, and compassion and care, bring us their puppies."

View Investigation Report

Do a search on the Hunte Corporation, and you will find that they are one of the big fish many of us would like to stop. These bills may not stop them, but they will raise the conditions in which dogs are being breed, and that very important. Petland isn't buying from Hunte, however, they are probably doing the same thing as Hunte, and have a large group of the same caliber breeders as the Hunte Cooperation from which they purchase. Here's an interesting link that discusses Petland and the Hunte Corportaion, and explains why the USDA doesn't work:

The USDA's head veterinarian, Ron de Haven, admits that only about half of the roughly 4,000 USDA-licensed facilities even meet USDA's minimum regulations, a disgraceful example of the USDA's failure to enforce existing animal-protection laws.

De Haven attributes this failure to the USDA not having enough inspectors, but even when the inspectors find problems, fining and closing down puppy mills is very rare. The USDA's mission is to support agriculture, and apparently it considers puppy mill owners to be "dog farmers" worthy of its protection.

Petstore Cruelty

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Petland isn't buying from Hunte, however, they are probably doing the same thing as Hunte, and have a large group of the same caliber breeders as the Hunte Cooperation from which they purchase.

I'm aware of the Hunte Corporation, though I'll admit to not being fully schooled about them. I agree with you in general about where so many of these pups come from but do think the solution should begin with the biggest breeders. In many cases, these breeders have not 10 or 20 litters but hundreds per year. These are the ones where the 'feed 'em and breed 'em' mentality takes hold. I already posted a link about USDA inspectors and the problems with them. I don't think the 'perfect solution' should get in the way of a more doable 'good solution' and that may be where most of our differences of opinion lie. Also, you stated that Petland doesn't buy from the Hunte Corporation. Here's a quote from the link you provided. "The broker (middleman between breeders and pet stores) for many Petland stores is the Hunte Corporation."

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'm aware of the Hunte Corporation, though I'll admit to not being fully schooled about them. I agree with you in general about where so many of these pups come from but do think the solution should begin with the biggest breeders. In many cases, these breeders have not 10 or 20 litters but hundreds per year. These are the ones where the 'feed 'em and breed 'em' mentality takes hold. I already posted a link about USDA inspectors and the problems with them. I don't think the 'perfect solution' should get in the way of a more doable 'good solution' and that may be where most of our differences of opinion lie. Also, you stated that Petland doesn't buy from the Hunte Corporation. Here's a quote from the link you provided. "The broker (middleman between breeders and pet stores) for many Petland stores is the Hunte Corporation."

Lol, I was looking for the connection when I found that link, but didn't read it well enough. I didn't want to say there was a connection if there wasn't one, both of them are giants, but my point is that the Hunte corporation doesn't necessary buy from just huge breeders, but does buy from breeders in smaller ranges as well. These are often one man/family organizations and the conditions are really poor. I believe that someone selling 10 litters of dogs a year should be held accountable.

[goddess77]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Any records concerning the dog you are selling. These records must be kept for two years. I imagine the shot record would be the important one for people buying a puppy. Some breeders will tell people that the vet has checked the dog, and he has no illnesses, it would be great to see that in writing. If the breeder administers her own shots, I imagine that she has a pretty good relationship with a vet and the vet could note shots given by breeder. The law doesn't say anything about this; it just says vet records have to be available. I personally believe it safer for puppies to get the shots from a good breeder, less risk of being around other dogs.

I think the one of the main reasons this might be important is the puppy broker business. Many people pretend to be breeders who are actually brokers. A person goes to someone's home, sees two cute dogs, and a puppy, and thinks the person's a breeder. If the person could see vet records, that could ensure that the breeding dogs were actually raised in this environment and not some puppy mill. Some of you probably think this is silly but the puppy broker business is really big business. If you want to make money with dogs, forget about breeding and become a puppy broker, the only talent you need is lying through your teeth.

I think that it would be great if the buyer could see all of the records, and not just the shot records. My baby was born with a defect that the breeder that I got her from neglected to tell me. Seeing how our vet picked up on it immediately upon seeing my baby, I would assume that any vet that the breeder took her to would have picked up on it as well.

Don't get me wrong, I love my baby, and I wouldn't trade her for the world. It's just that I would have loved it if I was fully aware of everything about her ahead of time. I would have still taken her home because at least then, I would know that she was well taken care of and would get the help she needed.