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-   -   Breeding for Improvement? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/146370-breeding-improvement.html)

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249853)
And that is just the kind of "misinformation" I was referring to. IF people take their time to research ALL aspects of the type dog they are considering, then they will not be taken advantage of. But we all know there are people who make rash decisions, don't do their research first and will fall for any line they are fed. That is what I meant by "taken advantage" of.

Other than that, it's just difference of opinion and desire to preserve the breed, and concern over unknown health issues.



Umm...I'm not saying anything of the sort...I don't see where anyone else is either. (I really don't even understand this statment, to be quite honest.)

she means because those poor ignorant people have not read this thread.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249898)
so we just don't go there because of the unknown?
Nope, never said that. But there is a difference in breeding ethically, for more than just the "now" result, and trying to profit on a "rare trend."

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249898)
And because they want to by something of a differnt color, they are being taken advantatge of? How is that, sre you assuming that the majority of dog buyers are ignorant?
Nope, not assuming anyone at all is ignorant. More like realizing that alot of people out there are just misinformed and not fully knowledgeable as to "what" they are wanting to buy. How many times to we see members here alone who are looking for a "teacup" with no clue regarding what the terminology implies or why it is 'taboo' among Yorkie enthusiasts. That is the type scenario that I am referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249898)
Ya me too, why else would anyone care if I breed partis or not. I'm sure to some if I suddenly declared that I was not going to breed my partis it still would not be good enough because I do not show and not a member of the YTCA.
I really don't care if someone breeds partis or not or belong to the YTCA or not as long as they are breeding ethically, addressing issues and concerns that should be addressed and not just making excuses for your actions.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249924)
Nope, never said that. But there is a difference in breeding ethically, for more than just the "now" result, and trying to profit on a "rare trend."



Nope, not assuming anyone at all is ignorant. More like realizing that alot of people out there are just misinformed and not fully knowledgeable as to "what" they are wanting to buy. How many times to we see members here alone who are looking for a "teacup" with no clue regarding what the terminology implies or why it is 'taboo' among Yorkie enthusiasts. That is the type scenario that I am referring to.



I really don't care if someone breeds partis or not or belong to the YTCA or not as long as they are breeding ethically, addressing issues and concerns that should be addressed and not just making excuses for your actions.
Yup I agree with everything you said. Glad we're finally agreeing on something.

bchgirl 09-22-2008 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249939)
Yup I agree with everything you said. Glad we're finally agreeing on something.
Occassionally miracles happen here. :D

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249939)
Yup I agree with everything you said. Glad we're finally agreeing on something.
I thought we'd agreed on those points all along....but I'm not picky, I'll take and agreement on terms when it happens. :D

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 2249942)
Occassionally miracles happen here. :D
SSSHHHHHHHHHHHH! You are going to have to keep it down and stop spreading those rumors!

Breezeaway 09-22-2008 10:26 AM
Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers at premium prices, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs.

By YTCA posting this statement on their site, it leads me to believe that they were more concerned about the monetary gains of the parti-yorkies than the actual color. Why bring the money aspect into it?

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 2249942)
Occassionally miracles happen here. :D
LOL That really did make me laugh out loud. Actually I know where Bamafan stands, we have been in many of these discussions together. She has stated before that she is not against breeding the different colors as long as it is done responsibily. there is no way I can prove to her that I do breed responsibly, but there is no way she can prove the same to me.

There are those who believe that if you are not a member of the YTCA that you are not a responsible breeder and they also believe that everyone who IS a member of the YTCA is a responcible breeder.

They won't even consider the possibility that there are people who use their membership as a tool to sell to unsuspecting buyers.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249950)
I thought we'd agreed on those points all along....but I'm not picky, I'll take and agreement on terms when it happens. :D
Yes we did. but somehow the whole issue got side tracked because of comments that I made to another individual.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezeaway (Post 2249953)
Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers at premium prices, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs.

By YTCA posting this statement on their site, it leads me to believe that they were more concerned about the monetary gains of the parti-yorkies than the actual color. Why bring the money aspect into it?
LOL What a novel thought. Couldn't have put it better myself. My question is Why do they care?

I personlly think people pay way too much for movies and popcorn and cell phones and the list goes on, but I don't try to stop them. Americans BUY WATER, a clear sign that they have more $ than sense.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249962)
LOL What a novel thought. Couldn't have put it better myself. My question is Why do they care?

I personlly think people pay way too much for movies and popcorn and cell phones and the list goes on, but I don't try to stop them. Americans BUY WATER, a clear sign that they have more $ than sense.
And some even buy it for their dogs, those same dogs that lick their own butts and eat poop.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249957)
LOL That really did make me laugh out loud. Actually I know where Bamafan stands, we have been in many of these discussions together. She has stated before that she is not against breeding the different colors as long as it is done responsibily. there is no way I can prove to her that I do breed responsibly, but there is no way she can prove the same to me.
Yep. :)

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezeaway (Post 2249953)
Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers at premium prices, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs.

By YTCA posting this statement on their site, it leads me to believe that they were more concerned about the monetary gains of the parti-yorkies than the actual color. Why bring the money aspect into it?
It's interesting that you interpret the statement that way. You focus on the portion of the stament regarding money, assuming that is why they adopted their policy, I read it and assumed it was because of the 'unscrupulous breeders' portion of the statment.

Breezeaway 09-22-2008 10:52 AM
Like I said why bring the money into it, it could just have easily been written this way if was just about the color.
Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs.

bchgirl 09-22-2008 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249982)
It's interesting that you interpret the statement that way. You focus on the portion of the stament regarding money, assuming that is why they adopted their policy, I read it and assumed it was because of the 'unscrupulous breeders' portion of the statment.


I thought the same thing, Bama....but then thought would it not be YTCA's opinion anyone breeding off colors would be unscrupulous?

I also thought maybe I should keep my mouth shut too. :rolleyes:

Nancy1999 09-22-2008 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezeaway (Post 2249993)
Like I said why bring the money into it, it could just have easily been written this way if was just about the color.
Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs.
I think the YTCA frowns on any breeder breeding for money. YTCA members are forbidden to advertise, and they are forbidden from using certain words when describing their dogs. If this is a for-profit enterprise, many people think a breeder will take shortcuts to make that profit. YTCA members believe breeding should be done for one reason only – to improve the breed. If someone is charging more for a "rare" yorkie than what a premium example of the breed would cost, it raises suspicions of the true motives of the breeder, as it should.

Breezeaway 09-22-2008 11:16 AM
What it amounts to is as long as there are dogs there will be controversy, It is in just about every breed. In the 80's I raised and trained Brittanys. The Black and white Brittany was a no no in the American Brittany club. But the original Brittanys included black and white. The ABC decided they would not allow the B&W in their standards. The club decided this, Not AKC. Akc still registers B &W but they cannot be shown in the US because of the club standards.
The war did a lot of damage to the Brittany Spaniel in France and after the war black was allowed back in as an acceptable coloration because of the much depleted gene pool for the Brittany Spaniel in Europe. It was and is felt that the gene pool in the United States is sufficiently rich that there is no need to change the standard and allow black colorationeven though the original Brittanys included B & W.
Which is now why they are separated breeds" The Brittany, in the USA and the "French Brittany" but actually really the same . Only color separates them.

yorkiekist 09-22-2008 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249728)
I know that in every one of these threads, when you ran out of things to say you resort to name calling. Let see Bybs, puppy millers, ignorant, unethical, irresponsible, does any of that ring a bell.

And everytime the thread gets closed.

Everyone can go back and see for themselves. And I have never once called you names.

And yes I have to reiterate because you keep repeating the same false statements over and over and I feel it is my responsibility to give the people the correct information.
So let me get this straight: You now are a fan of mills and bybrs. I never said you called me names, like that would REALLY hurt my feelings or even mean anything in the realm of my life. Also, my statements are ONLY false in YOUR eyes because I dont agree with YOUR agenda. You have never said much of anything that makes sence and had anything to back it up either, so where do you get off? I think its great when any threads that you are on get closed since you a very snide in your remarks to me, I dont think your posts are worth reading. JMO

yorkiekist 09-22-2008 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 2249793)
I posted the links to the studies to show that the accusation that the YTCA donations involved the same thing as breeding dogs and recording "results" was inaccurate. I doubt very highly that the studies that were supported by the YTCA foundation had anything to do with parti colored or off colored yorkies. I am very doubtful that the YTCA Foundation sits around thinking of ways to show that irregularly colored yorkies are unhealthy. The point is try to support research aimed at identifing the causes of medical disorders so that breeders can make educated decisions about the dogs they breed. It has nothing to do with proving that the standard the YTCA created is correct or not.
Thank you for this nice informative post!!

bchgirl 09-22-2008 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezeaway (Post 2250031)
What it amounts to is as long as there are dogs there will be controversy, It is in just about every breed. In the 80's I raised and trained Brittanys. The Black and white Brittany was a no no in the American Brittany club. But the original Brittanys included black and white. The ABC decided they would not allow the B&W in their standards. The club decided this, Not AKC. Akc still registers B &W but they cannot be shown in the US because of the club standards.
The war did a lot of damage to the Brittany Spaniel in France and after the war black was allowed back in as an acceptable coloration because of the much depleted gene pool for the Brittany Spaniel in Europe. It was and is felt that the gene pool in the United States is sufficiently rich that there is no need to change the standard and allow black colorationeven though the original Brittanys included B & W.
Which is now why they are separated breeds" The Brittany, in the USA and the "French Brittany" but actually really the same . Only color separates them.
Oh I understand why different breed clubs WANT to be the parent club of a particular breed.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezeaway (Post 2249993)
Like I said why bring the money into it, it could just have easily been written this way if was just about the color.
Because the outrageous prices that some BYB/millers are charging for something marketed as RARE is part of the problem too. Just like you see with "teacups." The YTCA has had a stance against using that term for a long time, but there doesn't seem to be an issue with that.:confused:

iLuv Reeses 09-22-2008 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249723)
Different breeders used different dogs, perhaps the line that the silkie came from did not have the maltese mixed in. Not all of those early breeders used the same dogs. But eventually as they breed developed the breeders sought out other dogs that had the same traits as their own dogs and mated them.

the develoopment of the yorkie was not a scientific endeavor. it was done mainly by poor people who couldn't even read or write and their breeding records were kept in their heads.
I tried researching about the Maltese and found out it was a very old dog. It was like the yorkie which was bred to hunt vermins but that was 8000 years ago.The maltese dogs are the dogs of the upperclass and the royalties when the yorkies were still being in the process of existence in the hands of poor scottish workers and with the social barrier of the poor and the rich, i wonder how they were able to use the maltese in that period? Aside from the Biewers, are there other partis not related with the Nikko line in the world? Please fill me in. There are only few materials I could find to read about the partis. Thanks.

Breezeaway 09-22-2008 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2250178)
Because the outrageous prices that some BYB/millers are charging for something marketed as RARE is part of the problem too. Just like you see with "teacups." The YTCA has had a stance against using that term for a long time, but there doesn't seem to be an issue with that.:confused:
And YTCA needs to address the teacup issue. They have a set stance on max weight not over 7 lbs but no where do they state a minimum weight
IMO they need to go with height and length standards instead of weight anyway. Weight on dogs is so variable, you can have a 12 inch dog that weighs 5 lbs and a 7 inch dog that weighs 8 lbs.

wildcard 09-22-2008 01:40 PM
I think it is more likely that the the gene that causes parti color in yorkies (whether it happened in the development of the YT or more recently) is from a breed or precursor to a breed where you regularly see piebald as a coat pattern. This is an interesting article on the various alleles involved in coat color genetics. Coat Color Genetics


I am not sure why adding in a maltese here or there would cause parti color...

JeanieK 09-22-2008 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249982)
It's interesting that you interpret the statement that way. You focus on the portion of the stament regarding money, assuming that is why they adopted their policy, I read it and assumed it was because of the 'unscrupulous breeders' portion of the statment.
Then why even mention the money? it serves no purpose.

bchgirl 09-22-2008 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 2250269)
I think it is more likely that the the gene that causes parti color in yorkies (whether it happened in the development of the YT or more recently) is from a breed or precursor to a breed where you regularly see piebald as a coat pattern. This is an interesting article on the various alleles involved in coat color genetics. Coat Color Genetics


I am not sure why adding in a maltese here or there would cause parti color...
What a maltese would add if there is maltese....is the extreme recessive pie bald gene. The gene responsible for the white coloring.

A side note...all dogs who possess this gene have ticking. Every dog in every breed.

Breezeaway 09-22-2008 02:00 PM
The earliest known Maltese on record in the United States was born in 1873. He was entered at Westminster in 1879 and was also the first colored Maltese shown here. Entered as a "Maltese Skye Terrier," he was described as being white with black ears.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist (Post 2250033)
So let me get this straight: You now are a fan of mills and bybrs. I never said you called me names, like that would REALLY hurt my feelings or even mean anything in the realm of my life. Also, my statements are ONLY false in YOUR eyes because I dont agree with YOUR agenda. You have never said much of anything that makes sence and had anything to back it up either, so where do you get off? I think its great when any threads that you are on get closed since you a very snide in your remarks to me, I dont think your posts are worth reading. JMO
Then feel free not to read or reply to them.

And where does it say that i am a friend of Byb's and millers?

Oh that's right you're not reading my posts, then never mind, cause I doubt that anyone else got that impression from what I wrote.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchgirl (Post 2250001)
I thought the same thing, Bama....but then thought would it not be YTCA's opinion anyone breeding off colors would be unscrupulous?

I also thought maybe I should keep my mouth shut too. :rolleyes:
Yes they way it reads is that they only object to those who are breeding and selling for premium prices. Whew!! that makes me feel better. At least i'm not "one of those"!!!!

JeanieK 09-22-2008 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2250014)
I think the YTCA frowns on any breeder breeding for money. YTCA members are forbidden to advertise, and they are forbidden from using certain words when describing their dogs. If this is a for-profit enterprise, many people think a breeder will take shortcuts to make that profit. YTCA members believe breeding should be done for one reason only – to improve the breed. If someone is charging more for a "rare" yorkie than what a premium example of the breed would cost, it raises suspicions of the true motives of the breeder, as it should.
so accordng to the YTCA no one should sell puppies to anyone?? Unless you are showing yorkies you should not be able to own one? Cause no one else is supposed to breed or sell them? Now to me that is a bit of a "excuse the experssion", Nazi. As in only those who show are good enough to breed or own.


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