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JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLuv Reeses (Post 2249327)
I have read that part as well. As silky reds (wired coated ones which changed their coat texture while breaking their colors) can bring out the color when bred with a cottony/wooly (but not silky) in its immediate progenies. However, it also comes back down in the succeeding generation of the line.

"Years ago Mrs. Annie Swan, of the Invincia Yorkies, told us to keep one in our breeding program. She said everyone kept a so called "Red". They occasionally appeared from silky coated parents. No one ever showed them, but since they had the ability to return color pattern to it's proper boundaries and the ability to darken the color of a lighter dog when bred to them, they were on occasion bred in. Bred to cottony or wooly texture they usually have little effect. Bred to silk texture they improve color. Bred together they usually produce themselves and occasionally a lovely colored silk dog - but this is the exception."

paragraph lifted from:
Color & Texture article of Joan Gordon
to read more...
Color & Texture by Joan Gordon

Thank you. yes that is where I read it, I have their book.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist (Post 2249397)
Th only thing that the DNA proved is that the dogs were the parents of the puppies. You dont know what went on generations before the DNA test.
You are very right. Like about a thousand generations back when the yorkie was developed.

But they went back as many generations as they could with the testing which disproves the theory that they hac come about recently. So until someone can prove otherwise that is the way it stands.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist (Post 2248135)
I dont believe you can improve anything with pet quality and color doesnt improve structure, conformation, etc. Please tell me how color alone can do this. I doubt if the YTCA will want to add any colors that were never there to begin with. Why would they add non standard colors? Human drug company analogies have nothing to do with breeding sound dogs. They are not only "in it" to make money(hand over fist I might add), but hopefully to heal or treat disease, etc in people. And what other "special interest group" would you have do the research and why would they do it? Who better to be involved in the research than the breed club that promotes the breed and knows the breed better than anyone else? I wouldnt have the Saint Bernard breed club, the Skye Terrier club, the Girl Scouts, or FFA doing the research, would you? Just as I wouldnt have the YTCA be involved in the research of Pug Dog Encephalitus. And not all show breeders have tightly line bred dogs. Yes, show breeders have some health issues now and then, but far less than the mill, bybr breeders as they never care what they produce. So that tells me that the linebred and well bred show dogs are actually healthier. What I dont understand is why you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder reguarding the YTCA. You bash them and their members frequently. I would think that you would be happy that this group and its members are footing the bill for health research. I guess it must be that parti thing.

Universities do unbiased independent studies all the time. Perhaps a school of Veterinary medicine could be persuaded to do one.

But they would do it the same way we are doing it, breeding the dogs and recording the results. there is no other way.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist (Post 2249399)
If the Maltese was used, which is doubtful, wouldnt it stand to reason that the Silkies would have the white proble also as the Yorkie is one of the 3 breeds that made up that breed?

Different breeders used different dogs, perhaps the line that the silkie came from did not have the maltese mixed in. Not all of those early breeders used the same dogs. But eventually as they breed developed the breeders sought out other dogs that had the same traits as their own dogs and mated them.

the develoopment of the yorkie was not a scientific endeavor. it was done mainly by poor people who couldn't even read or write and their breeding records were kept in their heads.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist (Post 2249405)
Im sorry, exactly WHERE is it that you have "backed me into a corner"? It just seems to me that if anybldy is not on the same page as your AGENDA you feel the need to bash that person. Do you tink that YOU are the only person to do any research? Think again!! Dont assume that you know anything about me or what I have or have not researched. As for re-iterating the same thing over and over, you need to look in the mirror. The standar color Yorkie is doing just fine and dandy without the addition of the parti clors which will do absolutley nothing to improve the breed.
I know that in every one of these threads, when you ran out of things to say you resort to name calling. Let see Bybs, puppy millers, ignorant, unethical, irresponsible, does any of that ring a bell.

And everytime the thread gets closed.

Everyone can go back and see for themselves. And I have never once called you names.

And yes I have to reiterate because you keep repeating the same false statements over and over and I feel it is my responsibility to give the people the correct information.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist (Post 2249407)
As to this thread getting closed, it was very peaceful until you chimed in. So, go ahead and close the thread.
I've never closed a thread, and I have never reported you. And it might have been peaceful but people were being given false information, and directed to the YTCA website, which is full of false statements.

The YTCA has the same information that is out there for everyone to read. but they refuse to believe it. Yorkies were around long before the YTCA, the YTCA does not have an exclusive on them. But they refuse to know anything that is contrary to what they want to believe. To me that makes everything they say or do suspect. Once I have found that someone is deliberately trying to mislead me, from then on I am suspicious of everything they say.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 08:30 AM
Perhaps the OP could start another thread and get her question answered there and be able to get the info she was actually looking for. This has clearly become another debate about the ethics of breeding Partis.
I cringed when I saw the topic changed to that back on the first page....

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiekist (Post 2249429)
OK, point me in the direction of those historical articles, other than the extremely biased YTCA articals. I want a good read or good laugh, which ever it may be. Got any unbiased web-sites? Please post them for me.
As I have told you in other threads, I am not going to do your research for you, if you refuse to dig deeper than the YTCA website that is not my problem.

there have been many books and articles noted on here, go loook them up.

And meanwhile , ask the YTCA where they got their information from.

The question of the maltese being in the original make up was in a book written by one of the oldest authorities on the Yorkie and that persons name has been brought up in this thread. But if you only want to believe what the YTCA says, then don't waste your time.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249508)
I'm sure they'd help you out with that info if you contacted them. :) Much better than making assumptions, IMO.
We have already establuished that they lie and mislead the public, so no use contacting them. Besides like I said it was not an unbiased study, so the results are skewed.

You do realize, that in any of these large organizations, it is all politics don't you. Or do you really believe the tobacco companies then they say they are not targeting children, and their cigarettes don't contain added ingredients to get people addicted and they willingly contribute to the non smoking programs.

You want to buy a bridge?

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcard (Post 2249670)
The YTCA Foundation, Inc. was created in 1991 as an arm of the YTCA to collect and disperse donations for research into health issues related to the YT. It collects and donates $ to the AKC CHF (Canine Health Foundation) and is allowed to direct where its donations are spent within the AKC CHF. The AKC CHF in turns provides the funds to actual research scientists (generally at universities) that use it to pay for particular projects, for example, studies of liver shunt, liver disease and endocrine disease in breeds (sometimes just YT, sometimes in combination with other breeds who have similar disorders). You can visit the AKC CHF site to learn what programs are related to what breeds and who has donated funds-- here is the YT page AKC Canine Health Foundation Grants Listings

As you can see, there is a whole lot more to it that having a breeding program and recording results. I am not a YTCA member but I highly doubt that the YTCA funds its own breeding program and calls it research.
And did the results show that parti colored or any off color other than the blue born were any more suscepitable to any of the known health issues?

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249753)
We have already establuished that they lie and mislead the public, so no use contacting them. Besides like I said it was not an unbiased study, so the results are skewed.
No, "we" have not established anything. If you are under the impression that they "lie and mislead" then that is your right, but it is YOUR OPINION only...not a proven, established fact.
Unless one was there and part of any study they conducted, I don't see how anyone can proclaim with any certainty that any results were skewed or biased.
As for "not contacting them" for that reason or any other...that seems like a very convenient route. ;)

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249742)
As I have told you in other threads, I am not going to do your research for you, if you refuse to dig deeper than the YTCA website that is not my problem.

there have been many books and articles noted on here, go loook them up.
This is funny and very sad, IMO.

Generally speaking, if you are truly want to promote understanding and acceptance, this is not the way to go about doing it.
There seems to be a pattern of people claiming one thing or another was "proven" and "researched" but when asked for more detailed info, the response given mirrors the one above.
Again, a very 'convenient.' What was the phrase used earlier..."painted into a corner?"

This kind of ambiance is what causes threads to deteriorate to the point of being non-productive and insulting. It is clear the thread took two clear turns--one from being changed to being all about breeding partis, the other where it just became nothing but a continuation of arguments from previously locked threads...

Nancy1999 09-22-2008 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249736)
Perhaps the OP could start another thread and get her question answered there and be able to get the info she was actually looking for. This has clearly become another debate about the ethics of breeding Partis.
I cringed when I saw the topic changed to that back on the first page....

I am really sorry for this; I thought it was important for the average person to understand that improving the breed did not mean bringing in more variety. There is lots of misinformation printed, and sometimes he who posts most is believed. Here's a good link on the difference between a responsible breeder and a back yard breeder. I agree with the conclusion that a responsible breeder improves the breed and a backyard breeder damages the breed. I'm not name calling, but if the shoe fits . . . Responsible Breeder or Backyard Breeder?

JeanieK 09-22-2008 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249772)
No, "we" have not established anything. If you are under the impression that they "lie and mislead" then that is your right, but it is YOUR OPINION only...not a proven, established fact.
Unless one was there and part of any study they conducted, I don't see how anyone can proclaim with any certainty that any results were skewed or biased.
As for "not contacting them" for that reason or any other...that seems like a very convenient route. ;)
As I said it would do me no good to contact them because they are deliberately misleading the public, therefore I wouldn't believe anything they have to say.

They have access to the same information that the rest of us do and all other avenues lead to "there is a good possibility that the maltese were in the original make up", yet they state otherwise. So if there is no proof then the least they should do is say that it is not proven rather than to state it as fact.

They also refuse to accept the research that the AKC has done. why is that?

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249781)
As I said it would do me no good to contact them because they are deliberately misleading the public, therefore I wouldn't believe anything they have to say.
And it has nothing at all to do with them taking a stance against your breeding program, right? Yeah, sure, I'll buy that bridge.:p

wildcard 09-22-2008 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249763)
And did the results show that parti colored or any off color other than the blue born were any more suscepitable to any of the known health issues?
I posted the links to the studies to show that the accusation that the YTCA donations involved the same thing as breeding dogs and recording "results" was inaccurate. I doubt very highly that the studies that were supported by the YTCA foundation had anything to do with parti colored or off colored yorkies. I am very doubtful that the YTCA Foundation sits around thinking of ways to show that irregularly colored yorkies are unhealthy. The point is try to support research aimed at identifing the causes of medical disorders so that breeders can make educated decisions about the dogs they breed. It has nothing to do with proving that the standard the YTCA created is correct or not.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2249779)
I am really sorry for this; I thought it was important for the average person to understand that improving the breed did not mean bringing in more variety. There is lots of misinformation printed, and sometimes he who posts most is believed.
No, you're right...it IS important. I'm just not sure why this thread--which had NOTHING to do with Partis--was hijacked and made into such to begin with. Then equally confused, as I always am, as to how and why it takes always takes on the same tone.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249777)
This is funny and very sad, IMO.

Generally speaking, if you are truly want to promote understanding and acceptance, this is not the way to go about doing it.
There seems to be a pattern of people claiming one thing or another was "proven" and "researched" but when asked for more detailed info, the response given mirrors the one above.
Again, a very 'convenient.' What was the phrase used earlier..."painted into a corner?"
It has been stated in these threads by myself and by others, where the information came from, and she doesn't believe it anyway so why should I waste my time with it.

There is no concrete proof either way but there is more information pointing towards the theory than against it.

I just wonder why some people even care what I or anyone else breeds as long as there are no known health issues involved. Why should anyone care if someone wants to breed an Shnikerlabradoodleshnautsu. people want pets, some want unique and different pets. As long as they are healthy and treated properly why should anyone care?

And there are breeds, that I have previously pointed out, that by following the breed standard they are actually breeding dogs with major health issues. And eventually that might even be the case with the yorkies.

Never say never cause you just don't know what might evolve in the future.

We have been told, you can't breed those colors and call them yorkies because they are not purebred yorkies. And then turn right around and be told, you can't start your own breed club because they are yorkies and you can't start a new club on color alone.

well what is it? Either they are or they aren't. If they are then they should be accepted and if they aren't then it is none of YTCA's business.

Is this really about the dog, or the breed or is it a personal thing. I'm beginning to think it is more personal than anything.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249803)
It has been stated in these threads by myself and by others, where the information came from, and she doesn't believe it anyway so why should I waste my time with it.
LOL...good question...why are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249803)
I just wonder why some people even care what I or anyone else breeds as long as there are no known health issues involved.
You hit the nail on the head...I think that many are concerned about the what isn't "known."

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249803)
Why should anyone care if someone wants to breed an Shnikerlabradoodleshnautsu. people want pets, some want unique and different pets. As long as they are healthy and treated properly why should anyone care?
Because they hate to see unformed people taken advantage of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249803)
Never say never cause you just don't know what might evolve in the future.
So true!:thumbup:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249803)
Is this really about the dog, or the breed or is it a personal thing. I'm beginning to think it is more personal than anything.
The million dollar question! I think alot of it is quite "personal."

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 09:23 AM
Generally speaking, regardless to how one feels about the ethics and stance of the YTCA regarding the direction the breed should take and where it stands now, it's much easier to criticize others for their efforts than to try to advance matters oneself, I suppose. They seem to be second guessed and challenged quite often, but those doing the finger pointing can't back up their claims with anythnig more than opinions and theories that conveniently serve their own purposes. In short, I have yet to see any coordination of parti breeders to conduct any comparable studies that support their claims and theories. So until you have something to add to the pot....

MindieRose 09-22-2008 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2249803)

I just wonder why some people even care what I or anyone else breeds as long as there are no known health issues involved. Why should anyone care if someone wants to breed an Shnikerlabradoodleshnautsu. people want pets, some want unique and different pets. As long as they are healthy and treated properly why should anyone care?

And there are breeds, that I have previously pointed out, that by following the breed standard they are actually breeding dogs with major health issues. And eventually that might even be the case with the yorkies.
I believe I have posted almost this exact same thing several times myself, LOL. :D

As long as people are breeding responsibly, and by this I mean taking care of their dogs and caring properly for them, making sure there are no health issues, etc, and they are placing their puppies responsibly, then I don't care what color/"quality" dogs they are breeding. MOST people want dogs as pets only, MOST people don't show, and a lot of people have a preference on what color or what breed or mix of breeds they want. I think people should be allowed to have the dog that they want so long as it isn't deliberately breeding a sick animal.
I love all of my dogs, but I absolutely hate the attitude that many (not all) show dog breeders or supposed experts tend to carry along with them. If can do things their way, and let everyone else do things there way, that would be fine, but oh my gosh does the stupid debating get old. And honestly sometimes seems almost Hitler-esque and scarey.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 09:31 AM
When the offensive comparisons to historical hate groups start, that's when I check out of the conversation.

MindieRose 09-22-2008 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249826)
Because they hate to see unformed people taken advantage of?
Uninformed of what? Someones opinion? Or actual facts? There are many breeders that put just as much time, effort, care, and money, into their off-standard or *heaven forbid* mixed breed dogs, and they are not expected to get anything in return for it because it is not what is in someones opinion (because even the YTCA is a lot of opinion)? If someone is searching for a specific dog breed, or mix of breeds, and they find it and purchase it because it is what they desire, are you saying they are being taken advantage uf because no one had a chance to share their opinion about off-standard or a non-purebred dog?
I guess I am confused about what someone might be uninformed about.
I do agree that many people are taken advantage of by misleading (mostly internet websites) advertising on yorkies and other small dogs, and asking an astronomical amount of money when you could get the same result (or better) by finding a local breeder. I can totally understand how someone in that situation may be uninformed. OR when someone claims to have a "tiny teacup" litter that is for sale. But I think the whole color standard is such an absolute rediculous thing to cause such a uproar about.

BamaFan121s 09-22-2008 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindieRose (Post 2249846)
I do agree that many people are taken advantage of by misleading (mostly internet websites) advertising on yorkies and other small dogs, and asking an astronomical amount of money when you could get the same result (or better) by finding a local breeder. I can totally understand how someone in that situation may be uninformed. OR when someone claims to have a "tiny teacup" litter that is for sale.
And that is just the kind of "misinformation" I was referring to. IF people take their time to research ALL aspects of the type dog they are considering, then they will not be taken advantage of. But we all know there are people who make rash decisions, don't do their research first and will fall for any line they are fed. That is what I meant by "taken advantage" of.

Other than that, it's just difference of opinion and desire to preserve the breed, and concern over unknown health issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindieRose (Post 2249846)
are you saying they are being taken advantage uf because no one had a chance to share their opinion about off-standard or a non-purebred dog? .
Umm...I'm not saying anything of the sort...I don't see where anyone else is either. (I really don't even understand this statment, to be quite honest.)

Ladyhawk 09-22-2008 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 2249779)
I am really sorry for this; I thought it was important for the average person to understand that improving the breed did not mean bringing in more variety. There is lots of misinformation printed, and sometimes he who posts most is believed. Here's a good link on the difference between a responsible breeder and a back yard breeder. I agree with the conclusion that a responsible breeder improves the breed and a backyard breeder damages the breed. I'm not name calling, but if the shoe fits . . . Responsible Breeder or Backyard Breeder?
I have tried to stay out of this one but I just had to say that I love this article. It is very clear and procise and the reasons given for breeding (and not breeding) are valid and sincere. I find it to be such an educational resource for puppy buyers that I'm going to put it on my website. Thanks for posting this link.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249826)
LOL...good question...why are you?

You know I have asked myself that same question.

You hit the nail on the head...I think that many are concerned about the what isn't "known."

so we just don't go there because of the unknown? We'd still be making buggy whips itf that were the case.

Because they hate to see unformed people taken advantage of?

And because they want to by something of a differnt color, they are being taken advantatge of? How is that, sre you assuming that the majority of dog buyers are ignorant?
Why not shut down all the car dealerships etc if that is the case. I do not take advantage of people but I cannot help what other people do.
So true!:thumbup:



The million dollar question! I think alot of it is quite "personal."
Ya me too, why else would anyone care if I breed partis or not. I'm sure to some if I suddenly declared that I was not going to breed my partis it still would not be good enough because I do not show and not a member of the YTCA.

BTW I don't belong to any church either but does not mean I am not a good Christian.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249827)
In short, I have yet to see any coordination of parti breeders to conduct any comparable studies that support their claims and theories. So until you have something to add to the pot....
Maybe that is because you haven't look closely enough.

wildcard 09-22-2008 10:04 AM
I think way at the beginning of the thread the question was asked of whether to begin breeding with a sound line bred bitch vs. A gorgeous out cross. I think it is more complicated than that. Both bitches I have bred as the foundation of my dogs (papillons not YTs) are the result of a pretty tightly line bred bitch bred to an unrelated dog who was also line bred (no as tight). So the bitches themselves were outcrosses but behind them are line breedings. I recently bred one of these bitches back into her dam's pedigree and am thrilled with the results, the awesome temperment and structure of the dam's line but incoporated into that the better coat of the sire of the dam. The other bitch was outcrossed again to another unrelated line (that sire is the father of one of my other bitches) and thoise puppies are very nice as well, but I think I will be a step closer to what I want once I breed this new generation back into their granddam's line. So if the choice is tightly line bred versus a total mish mash I'd pick the tightly line bred (assuming health is not an issue). But I would not pass up an outcross who is the product of two linebred parents because then you have the benefits of 2 lines and the ability to breed back into either line. Just my opinion.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaFan121s (Post 2249843)
When the offensive comparisons to historical hate groups start, that's when I check out of the conversation.
I was expecting that as soon as I read the other post.

That reference is made quite casually about many things. the fashion Nazies, the food Nazies, etc. You know as well as I do that she meant nothing by it.

JeanieK 09-22-2008 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindieRose (Post 2249846)
Uninformed of what? Someones opinion? Or actual facts? There are many breeders that put just as much time, effort, care, and money, into their off-standard or *heaven forbid* mixed breed dogs, and they are not expected to get anything in return for it because it is not what is in someones opinion (because even the YTCA is a lot of opinion)? If someone is searching for a specific dog breed, or mix of breeds, and they find it and purchase it because it is what they desire, are you saying they are being taken advantage uf because no one had a chance to share their opinion about off-standard or a non-purebred dog?
I guess I am confused about what someone might be uninformed about.
I do agree that many people are taken advantage of by misleading (mostly internet websites) advertising on yorkies and other small dogs, and asking an astronomical amount of money when you could get the same result (or better) by finding a local breeder. I can totally understand how someone in that situation may be uninformed. OR when someone claims to have a "tiny teacup" litter that is for sale. But I think the whole color standard is such an absolute rediculous thing to cause such a uproar about.

Very true and those same people wouldn't listen if you tried to tell them anyway.


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