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Old 09-06-2008, 09:54 AM   #1
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Default Am I being fair?

I entered verbally into a stud contract with a couple who own a tiny male yorkie. They wanted $500 and if my female doesn't get pregnant I get a second chance. If she doesn't get pregnant again, I do not get any refund.

Anyways when my female came into heat, I contacted the breeders and let them know. They assured their male was available and to contact them when she came into standing heat. She came into standing heat over the September long weekend here in Canada. She started flagging and standing for my neutered male Saturday night (day 9 of her heat cyle). I phoned the breeders on Sunday morning and left a message. I never heard back from them until late Monday night (day 11). I asked if they had been out of town, but I was never given an answer why it took them two days to get back to me. I was told I could go over the next day (day 12). I took my female over and it was a distrastrous breeding -- the male was on my female's back, and all over the place, and they then told me that their stud had only tied once naturally and that they have always done IA. Anways the dogs never tied and they thought the sperm was lost on my females leg "or somewhere else". I was told to come over the next day to try again (day 13). They were going to try natural breeding again, but I asked that they go right to IA which they did. I was told to come back on Friday (day 15). But on Thursday, my female was not flagging or standing anymore -- so her standing heat was from days 9-13. I only bred her on day 13. When I asked how much I owed them, they asked for the full $500.00. I told them that I didn't feel comfortable with that, b/c they only bred her once and were not available to me at the beginning of her standing heat. I offered to pay $250 and the rest if she gets pregnant. The breeder sounded very offended and was abrupt with me.

I'm wondering if I am being unfair here -- yes, we entered a verbal contract that I would pay $500, but their part of the contract was to have their male availabe to my female while she was ready for breeding --- that did not happen and I was only able to breed her once -- I feel uncomfortable paying the $500 -- if she doesn't get pregnant, I am promised a second try -- but how do I know that the second try won't be a repeat of my first experience with this breeder?
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:10 AM   #2
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WOW I dont think your being unfair, sounds more then fair to me. I would not of paid her one penny until I knew my female was indeed pregnant. she should of been able to have your girl over on the days she was ready.is this male a proven stud?
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:25 AM   #3
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I must agree with you. I am new at breeding and let me tell you whats happening to me. My female is on day 65 from the time she first tied and now waiting for 2 pups to arrive. I bred my female to the breeders personel dog 4 tiimes starting on 7/3 i did not know when she began her heat and had to guess for we were on vacation when she started and she was with a sitter. I wanted to breed her once more to make sure she would have more than one or two and she did not answer my texts. I even texted her since than to ask her a Q and she still has not responded back to me.
I told her 2 years ago that i wanted to bred my dog to hers and she told me $500 or one pup. Now after breeding my dog to hers i assumed it stood the same but she said when i was leaving $1500 or one pup. they are brazilian born dogs and not even AKC registered. I said i thought you told me 500 and she said well then give a pup. and i said what if she just has one and she told me just to keep it which i thought was fair. but 1500 is a absurd fee for a dog that has no registration!!!
In the meantime, two weeks after breeding my female urinated on the wee-wee pad and it smelled like FISH like yuck!!! i called the vet, brought her in did a urine test and she said she has a UTI and bladder infection. gave her anti-biotics and $200 later sent me home and told me to come back in two weeks to retest urine. 2 weeks later there was still and infection so she gave me another anti-biotic $150. told me to come back again in 2 more weeks with more urine and she still had and infection!!!! I had to bring her in again last friday and she had to xray her to see where her bladder was located for she had to do a internal culture and send it to a lab to see what kind of strain of bacteria it was it cure this ( $300 more)..Low and behold no bacteria in her bladder at all..she said that it is coming from her vagina and can not do anything till pups are born to treat this. She said it could have been caused from the breeding and STD's are rare in dogs but other infections are possible. She said she will not pass it on to the pups...
I must say i am furious over this.. I spend $650 on treatment so far and it is still not cured. After she has these pups i will call up the breeder and tell her she will receive nothing. for she did not return my texts, which is the only way to speak with her and this has cost me enough for the bacteria. I have looked up online and various studs range from 350-500 for a fee and $1500 is crazy and now sick about this bacteria thing.
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:30 AM   #4
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I would not pay her anything either. Until you know that your female is preg. too. I think breeders should charge a fee like $250 for one live pup and $500 for a 2 or more litter.. Then if a female does not get preg then no charge and a return of $.
My studs mom did not ask for $ up front ...guess she is just trusting. I dont want to screw her but i may give her something if i clear this infection up and have healthy pups also but she will just receive a nominal fee.
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:02 AM   #5
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I must agree with you. I am new at breeding and let me tell you whats happening to me. My female is on day 65 from the time she first tied and now waiting for 2 pups to arrive. I bred my female to the breeders personel dog 4 tiimes starting on 7/3 i did not know when she began her heat and had to guess for we were on vacation when she started and she was with a sitter. I wanted to breed her once more to make sure she would have more than one or two and she did not answer my texts. I even texted her since than to ask her a Q and she still has not responded back to me.
I told her 2 years ago that i wanted to bred my dog to hers and she told me $500 or one pup. Now after breeding my dog to hers i assumed it stood the same but she said when i was leaving $1500 or one pup. they are brazilian born dogs and not even AKC registered. I said i thought you told me 500 and she said well then give a pup. and i said what if she just has one and she told me just to keep it which i thought was fair. but 1500 is a absurd fee for a dog that has no registration!!!
In the meantime, two weeks after breeding my female urinated on the wee-wee pad and it smelled like FISH like yuck!!! i called the vet, brought her in did a urine test and she said she has a UTI and bladder infection. gave her anti-biotics and $200 later sent me home and told me to come back in two weeks to retest urine. 2 weeks later there was still and infection so she gave me another anti-biotic $150. told me to come back again in 2 more weeks with more urine and she still had and infection!!!! I had to bring her in again last friday and she had to xray her to see where her bladder was located for she had to do a internal culture and send it to a lab to see what kind of strain of bacteria it was it cure this ( $300 more)..Low and behold no bacteria in her bladder at all..she said that it is coming from her vagina and can not do anything till pups are born to treat this. She said it could have been caused from the breeding and STD's are rare in dogs but other infections are possible. She said she will not pass it on to the pups...
I must say i am furious over this.. I spend $650 on treatment so far and it is still not cured. After she has these pups i will call up the breeder and tell her she will receive nothing. for she did not return my texts, which is the only way to speak with her and this has cost me enough for the bacteria. I have looked up online and various studs range from 350-500 for a fee and $1500 is crazy and now sick about this bacteria thing.
Wow thats a lot of money for use of her stud. In useing someone elses stud you should always make sure they have been tested for STD's. they are useing him to breed with other dogs, you never know what they can pick up and pass around. did you let her know about your dogs infection so she can treat her stud also. if not he will just keep passing it on. I would also show her your vet papers and knock the vet bills off of her payment.
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:11 AM   #6
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stud fees are generally paid in advance no matter what and if the female doesn't get pregnant, you get a repeat breeding.
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:52 AM   #7
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You can't look up online on other peoples fees and expect that the person you are hiring for stud fee service is going to imply with that fee. That just isn't how it works. Stud fees and puppy prices vary greatly.
Get everything in writing.
You used her male 4 times so this breeder should collect stud fee.
Breeding is a very expensive venture.
Best thing to do is buy your own stud if you don't like the way stud service works.
Good luck to both of you.

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Old 09-06-2008, 12:07 PM   #8
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I'm surprised that they didn't collect the entire fee upfront but since they didn't I think I would offer instead to give them $250 now and the other $250 when you confirm pregnancy. If she's pregnant, it doesn't matter how many times, he got the job done one way or the other and that's really all that matters. Although, you really did agree to the full $500.....
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:39 PM   #9
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I believe that if you made a verbal contract with this woman for $500. and a repeat breeding if a pregnancy should not occur than you should stick by it. I agree that if you don't like the terms of stud use than buy your own stud so that you don't have to worry about it.
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:22 PM   #10
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I believe that if you made a verbal contract with this woman for $500. and a repeat breeding if a pregnancy should not occur than you should stick by it. I agree that if you don't like the terms of stud use than buy your own stud so that you don't have to worry about it.

Owning your own stud dog is very expensive in upkeep and care. You should always have your female and the stud tested for brucellosis prior to breeding. I would not stud a female without a negative test from a vet. But then again I have never studded a female yet for many reasons. I have however paid for stud service and $500 is reasonable.
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:39 PM   #11
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You still could get puppies. It only takes once to get pups. Look at some of the posts we have read on here in the past - even having an accident breeding that only happen once and they have a whole litter of pups. So I would have paid the whole fee. When you breed to any stud, you never know how either of the dogs will act. Also it is normal for you to leave the female at the stud's home for about a week. This way she knows you are not around and will perform better to the matting, this also goes for the male as well - performance. If it does not work - you get a repeat breeding. I would have been afended if one had used my stud and then tried to offer me only half.

I had a friend of mine go to her OBGYN doctor to perform artifical insemantation on her to try to get pregnant (after years of not getting pregant) It took her 4 times for her finally to conceive. Do you think she should have only paid him half? No!
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Old 09-06-2008, 06:54 PM   #12
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What is the name of the breeder ?
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Old 09-06-2008, 06:58 PM   #13
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Thanks for the reminder that she still may get pregnant -- that's what I'm hoping - and then of course I would pay the remainder of the $500!!! I never suggested the fee was unreasonable -- I've experienced 3 scenarios so far:
1. One breeder trusted me and said I only had to pay($400) if my female got pregnant -- my female didn't but I sent her $ anyways for her time. 2. I paid $250 to another breeder for her time , and the remainder $150 when my female got pregnant, which she did.

So this contract was a bit different, but yes I verbally agreed to it. The problem I have is the breeder modified their part of the agreement b/f I ever suggested I was modifying mine, i.e. they were suppose to be available the whole week to breed my dog when she was in standing heat --- they weren't -- thus they broke our verbal agreement or contract.

Tjdmom, Ladyhawk, and topknot: Think about this and answer it honestly -- if you hired a band to play at your child's wedding, or your wedding, anniversary...and the band was suppose to play for 5 hours and you were suppose to pay $500, but they only showed up the last 2 hours, would you have paid them $500 when they said to you at the end of the evening "but you have to pay the $500 -- we made a verbal agreement -- we entertained, now you pay" -- in a court of law the judge looks at whether all aspects of the contract is fulfilled b/f full payment is ever expected. If our "band" said to you well we failed to meet your needs at this performance, but don't worry we'll do it again at your next function -- just pay us that $500 now --- would you trust them? Or would it cross your mind that the next time, they may again be too busy, etc. to make it on time when you need them. I could mention about another 10 analogies, but I hope you get the point. I have a feeling that if it was you being expected to pay a full price for 1/2 of the services promised, you might feel differently.

Felicity -- yes that is the highest stud fee I have heard of -- some breeders are so greedy. It's too bad you incurred additional expenses -- I did too -- the drive to this breeder's house is 30 minutes outside my city -- all gravel road. So I did a couple of hours of gravel driving those 2 nights, on the second night a passing vehicle threw rocks into the air with their vehicle and hit my windshield -- price on replacing it is close to a $1000.

Yes I agree I need my own stud and have tried twice --- both with problems -- just posted a thread recently about Continental Kennel Club discussing my experience -- I seem to be having bad luck with this breeding thing, but I keep trying.
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:37 AM   #14
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Maybe breeding is not meant for you with all the problems you have incurred.

I live down the road from a rock cory and had my window damaged too by rocks - to repace it - we got prices from 100.00 - 300.00 for a new front window. I know it is a hassel to replace. The one rock that damaged my window the most (yes, I have had more rocks hit my window since living by this cory) actually just fell from the sky when they were blasting and I was just driving down the road to go to work. Boy, was I surprised.

I have paid a lot higher for stud service than 500.00, a lot more! And once had to drive 2 hours away - one way to another state. Then back home the same day to go home and then returned to pick up my girl the following week. Then had a c-section and my girl almost died due to complications and ended up with only two boys. But at least they are beautiful! Very promising.

Another time I used a stud, I also ended up with a c-section and had two girls, but lost one after 5 days after hand feeding her around the clock. Also my mama had a rough time too from te c-section. The girl I have left is gorgeous.

Neither of my mom's had c-sections due to them - it just happened. One pup with was trying to go up the other horn and had a traffic jam and the other time one pup came out of its sack during labor. These things happen.
All mine are AKC and champions involved.

Even though we had a rough time of it and the second time only ended up with one pup, that is just had it goes. I did not ask for a partial refund.
And IMO - relating a band playing to a male performance is not the same. It is best (I know from experience) to leave your female there and return. Since you were there the male could have sensed your presence - a stranger in the home and mot performed to his best ability. They are finicky ike that. So, IMO - you may have caused him not to perform as well. You are dealing with emotions, not a talent of how well someone played. Your example of the band is right if brought to court, since they practice to do well. It is a talent, not an act of emotions and hormones. Things happen. I am glad I have not used my stud to someone else.

And when I use someone else's stud I understand how things are. They are not perfect all the time. And if you want a really good stud to use - you might have to go to the end of the world to use that stud.
I have a friend that had to fly to another state to use a particular stud and then flew back to get her girl after the breedings a week later. She ended up with only one girl. That's life. She spent just over 2,000 in just plane tickets and stud service, not to mention her time and all.
Some of the people you mentioned - the band story too - are experienced breeders and even show their dogs. We were being honest and just told you from own own expert advice.

I know it is hard sometimes and you want everything t be perfect, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.
Best fo luck to you in the future.

Last edited by topknot; 09-07-2008 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 09-07-2008, 02:58 AM   #15
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I forgot to mention - that AI is not easy to get the stuff you need (if you know what I mean). And since they also did the AI, you got two breedings.
I had one girl that only got AI and she had three pups from that. So you should be fine. I would have paid them in full.
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