Did you check out that the stud dog was proven???.
I always use the same person who has 3 stud dogs. There is never a problem. These wee guys are very good at their job, LOL. Also I only have my girls mate with them once, and I have always had puppies. So it can be done first time around.
I pay up front, no writen contract. If the mating is not succsessul then you can go back and get it free the next time.

I guess you just gotta pay up. But if it was me I certainly would not be using her stud dog again.

I looked back at all your posts you started and - yes, you have had a time. You know about AI, you like to negotiate terms, and you have checked out studs. You seem new to breeding, but you are not. I think you might want to check out this site for Canadian yorkie Assoc. Canadian Yorkshire Terrier Association and may lead you in the right direction - right stud, breeding ethics, etc.. May be your best choice.

Like my dad always told me - "If you want to do something - Do your best!"

yes that is the highest stud fee I have heard of -- some breeders are so greedy. It's too bad you incurred additional expenses -- I did too -- the drive to this breeder's house is 30 minutes outside my city -- all gravel road. So I did a couple of hours of gravel driving those 2 nights, on the second night a passing vehicle threw rocks into the air with their vehicle and hit my windshield -- price on replacing it is close to a $1000.

And some new comers want to have the best quality for nothing . I would be curious if you will not be greedy when selling your puppies .

It has always been too much of a hassle for me when using studs.
So I prefer to have my own.
seems everytime I try to coordinate a stud service, life just gets in the way with timing etc.
I remember my first time going out for stud, we waited to take her because she loved to sit in my lap and I hated to send her. We drive 3 hours one way and then while she is there they have an ice storm so we had to wait to go back and get her longer than normal. :(
Then she had only one pup, a big male. But he was very nice~ I sold him to a friend of mine and he made his CH title. So it all worked out in the end. Except I had planned to keep a girl LOL
So it is frustrating to say the least.
But the whole breeding thing is a challenge at times.

Deana
Prestigeous Yorkies

That is a great point too Deana! If you think the initial $500 is alot then turn around have 1 puppy, a c section possibly and all your vet expenses, puppy food, formula etc. Now how much did it cost? You have to be willing to entertain this scenario. I use a stud who I specifically pick to compliment my female, not to just have puppies. Hope all works out fine for you though!

Hi everyone -- I guess there's no clear cut answer on this one - I will just have to give it some more thought. I was hoping someone could give me a good answer to why I should pay the $500 other than just "an agreement is an agreement".

Just to answer some of the questions asked: I was told the male is proven --their own females had a litter and one other lady that used their stud had a litter, but it wasn't until my first time there that they told me their stud had only tied once on his own before -- that was the night he ejaculated on my female's leg (the breeder is a vet by the way so I have to take his word -- he was watching from behind, that there was no sperm "in my female"). I won't mention the name of the breeder -- they are small breeders here in Canada, and seem to be nice people. I somehow sensed though that this vet saw his involvement with breeding as "vet time" and wanted to charge his "vet fees". I didn't leave my female there b/c it was not offered to me, and again am taking the advice of a more experienced breeder and vet on how their own stud performs when people are present.

I know my analogy about a "band" is not the same as a dog breeding, but I was simply trying to make the point, not about performance, but about [U]being available[/U] when you promise someone to be available. Not being available to my female for her first 3 days of standing heat (she only stood for 5 days) is the term of the contract the breeders failed to carry out -- so that may effect whether she gets pregnant -- if she does get pregnant as I have always said, I will pay the whole amount. In my other two experiences using someone else's stud, they had me bring my female on her 1st/2nd day of standing heat, and then every 2 days after that. From all the reading I have done, that appears to be the most successful way to breed and was the way this breeder told me they would breed my female -- which they didn't.

Although I teach learning disabled kids now, I was a lawyer for several years b/f switching careers, so I know that a court would view this breeder's behavior as not fully carrying out their promised contract. I find the world of breeding a very different place though than corporate law -- not everyone puts everything in writing, and I have often found breeders get offended when I ask to have things in writing or try to work out different arrangements from what they suggest. There seems to be a lot more emotions involved, and I often feel like I am walking on pins and needles when dealing with alot of breeders... I don't get it...

Anyways I myself am feeling pretty emotionally and finacially drained -- the $1000 quote on the cracked front window is correct by the way -- my husband got the quote -- maybe it's the type of vehicle I have, or maybe b/c everything in Canada is more expensive...

I don't feel the band example applies well at all. You are paying for the results of a service not the number of times or hours put into it. If I paid for a tile job it shouldn't matter whether the tileman took an hour to do it or 4 hours to do it if I am paying by the job and the results are the same. You are paying for a service that results in a litter of puppies, not for the breeder's time. If you verbally contract for said service and a holiday messes up your timing but a litter is still the result (even with one breeding you will probably get a litter) you owe the stud owner the amount that you agreed to pay for a service. As a lawyer you should already know all of this. Most services are not purchased by the hour but by the service, you got your service, stand by your word.

You said you were previously a lawyer, so I have to ask why would go ahead and enter into the agreement if you felt that they were not available for your girl.
You could have very easily just skipped her cycle, that was your option but yet you chose to go ahead into the agreement and allowed the stud to breed to your dog in the hopes of having a litter? So the stud service is owed.


Deana
Prestigeous Yorkies

Ladyhawk: We have two diffierent viewpoints going on here -- when I asked for their services they told me they would breed her at the beginning of her standing heat and every two days later with the intention of her getting pregnant -- they did not honor their contract -- they did not breed her at the beginning of her standing heat cyle (as a lawyer I do understand this -- why don't you study contract law b/f you start telling me what I should know or not know) -- and I've never heard of a tile setter who sets tiles in 1 hour to the same standard as someone who does it in 4 -- it will be a much sloppier job (my husband's a building contractor -- and I hear all the time about rushed, sloppy jobs) -- these breeder's were not around when I needed them -- they should not have promised me their stud -- and if they knew they were going away for the holidays they should have told me so that I could have made arrangements elsewhere. If my holidays messed up the availability of breeding time then I would have to decide if I would still breed and pay the $500 --- but they were the ones that were not available, not me. I bought a service but that service involved conditions that were not met --- I can give you about another 10 analogies/scenarios but I already can tell you are biased and defensive and will refuse to understand it, so why waste my time...

Prestigious: You have offered me the best argument so far to consider -- good point and one I gave some thought too. I entered into the agreement b/c they were suppose to be available, but when they didn't get back to me until day 4, you are right I could have backed out. But I though my dog would be in standing heat for a few more days, so I thought we still had a chance of getting her pregnant -- plus I was in a bind I had not bothered arranging for another stud b/c they had promised they would be available. When we finally started the process on day 4 of her standing heat, I didn't know that the dog would not be able to perform that day -- which left just one day left to breed (she ended up only standing for 5 days). Had I known that they wouldn't be around the first few needed days, and would waste day 4 of her standing heat and only breed her on day 5 --- believe me I would not have entered into this contract. There was a lot of information they left out -- ie. 1. We (the stud owners) won't be around for the first 3 days of your dog's heat; and 2. Our stud dog never ties but we're going to experiment on your dog instead of performing AI -- and I wasn't told about this until their dog ejaculated all over my dog's leg.... they told me later that they were trying natural instead of AI with my dog b/c she was lower to the ground then other females he had tried to breed with -- so they were hoping he would be able to perform naturally with her.

I am still not convinced that I should pay the full amount for this contract screw up ... just b/c for some selfish, stubborn, narrow-minded breeders a "(broken) contract is still a contract--- when it's time to get paid". And for the LAST TIME -- yes I realize I am also paying for a litter, so if there is a litter I will pay the full amount! It's the fact that there may not be a litter b/c of their inability to completely carry out the contract as agreed upon, that I am at this point withholding fees............................ and even if there is a litter, I would be very hesitant to ever use their stud again b/c of how unreliable I found these breeders to be.

My husband is a tile setter as is his father and grandfather. I used tile because it is something I know. My husband is slow and meticulous, he doesn't do anything quickly, it's not his speed. His father however can do absolutely beautiful work in no time flat. He is small and fast and very efficient. That being said, though you may not be happy about the way the service was performed you still got the service. I doubt you'll have to worry about using their stud again, they probably won't make him available to you.

Ladyhawk -- you are extremely judgmental -- you have no idea how we got along or how I dealt with them when I discussed my feelings with them. You are obvioulsy one of those up-tight breeders that we all have to pussy foot around.

I'm not the least bit uptight. If you have an equitable arrangement with these people and they are fine with the changes in the original terms of the agreement than why are you asking if you are being fair? You want to know if I and others think it is okay that you withhold half of the payment. I simply stated that I feel that you got the service that you paid for and should abide by the agreement that you made. If you were unhappy that the stud owner didn't get back to you in a timely manner or did not perform as you expected you should have cancelled the agreement. I have made no speculations as to your personality or personal dealings please be mature enough not to speculate on mine. If you must be rude than I think admin should just close this thread.

I advise anyone who feels like a breeding is a "must do" to have progesterone testing done. You should have optimal success if you know when to breed your bitch, and one or two services will be sufficient, no need to breed three times. It has worked extremely well for me and others I know that use it, we are getting more puppies per litter and have better info re: when the bitch is due. I have found that the small investment up front in the tests is well worth it. I won't do another breeding without it.

I have to agree with the others on this one...By going ahead and accepting the breeding you were accepting the new terms...If you were unhappy with what was going on you really should have just forfeited your breeding and walked away...

As a lawyer I am confused why you didn't draw up a written contract with the owner of the stud dog...:confused:...Sounds like to me you are looking for a loophole in hopes of not paying the agreed upon price...

Bottom line is you didn't walk away...You got your bitch bred...and you owe the stud fee!

You actually did make specualtions about my personal dealings by stating "they probably won't make him(stud) available to you". That is rude as well -- the breeders were very nice people, and we got along fine, I just wasn't happy with the fact that they were not reliable.

About "cancelling the agreement" you can if you want read my response to Prestigious where I explained why I didn't cancel it. Oddly every person in the non-breeding dog world that I tell this story too, is horrified that the breeder expects me to pay the full amount, some people in this thread (perhaps non-breeders) also agree with me. It seems the only people agreeing that I need to pay the full amount are breeders themselves... you stated to me earlier in a post in this thread that I need to "stand by my word". Why does the owner of the stud not have to "stand by his word?"....hmmm

Anyways, I do apologize, I do not know you personally and shouldn't be assuming what your personality is like based on our discussions. To be involved in yorkietalk.com and taking time to respond to people's questions, you are obvioulsy a concerned, helpful individual, and I am sure you have helped many beginning breeders.